Author Topic: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling  (Read 23652 times)

De Selby

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2008, 09:14:39 PM »
Quote

Bigjake,

The first suicide attack on Israelis was committed by a Christian woman. 

Horse Puckey.

[Edited for Language] angry

See for yourself:

http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2369824
Quote
In modern day resistance movements, a Christian Lebanese woman, Loula Abboud, may have been the model for the first Palestinian women who became suicide bombers in 2002 [10]. The dark-eyed petite girl of 19 conducted a suicide operation in the Bekaa valley in southern Lebanon in April 1985, exceeding all expectations for men and women in war [11].

The attack that is referencing was the very first suicide attack against Israelis, a car-bomb driven by....Loula Abboud, Christian, from Lebanon.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2008, 09:16:33 PM »
I'd also think it is relevant that Sharia law has been "practiced" in England ("honor killing"). So, SS... are you saying we can't expect similar here in the States, if the proverbial inch is given?

 and before you go all out on "Christians have bad beliefs, too!", bear in mind that I'm pagan: I've HAD the offers of being made the centerpiece at a bonfire. The Christian loonies don't scare me half as much as the Muslim loonies (probably because there isn't any effort being made on the part of society to "be understanding" of the Christian fringe)...

What do "honor killings" have to do with "sharia law"? 

There are honor killings amongst christians, druze, muslims and Jews in the middle east, but just like jealousy and love triangle murders in the US, they have zero to do with religious edicts and everything to do with domestic violence.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Antibubba

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2008, 09:23:30 PM »
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  Secondly, even the smartest of men can be sculpted like warm putty in the perfumed and lotioned hands of a smart woman.

 grin

That's the funniest thing about the overly devout: Anger them, assault them, curse them, and drive them from their lands, and they will survive, with providence from Above.

But God help us all if you arouse them...
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Regolith

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2008, 10:40:27 PM »
Quote

Bigjake,

The first suicide attack on Israelis was committed by a Christian woman. 

Horse Puckey.

[Edited for Language] angry

See for yourself:

http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2369824
Quote
In modern day resistance movements, a Christian Lebanese woman, Loula Abboud, may have been the model for the first Palestinian women who became suicide bombers in 2002 [10]. The dark-eyed petite girl of 19 conducted a suicide operation in the Bekaa valley in southern Lebanon in April 1985, exceeding all expectations for men and women in war [11].

The attack that is referencing was the very first suicide attack against Israelis, a car-bomb driven by....Loula Abboud, Christian, from Lebanon.

Funny thing about that.  I've been looking up information on this woman. Turns out she was a member of a neo-Nazi Syrian Social Nationalist Party.  They were secular in nature, and accepted people of both Muslim an Christian religions. So her religion is quite literally irrelevant, because her motivations weren't religious in nature. 
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Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

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Tecumseh

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2008, 10:41:59 PM »
Please post some links. 

Strings

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2008, 11:19:20 PM »
Here's one that covers the idea: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html

Quote
"In countries where Islam is practiced, they're called honor killings, but dowry deaths and so-called crimes of passion have a similar dynamic in that the women are killed by male family members and the crimes are perceived as excusable or understandable," said Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch.

Quote
There is nothing in the Koran, the book of basic Islamic teachings, that permits or sanctions honor killings. However, the view of women as property with no rights of their own is deeply rooted in Islamic culture, Tahira Shahid Khan, a professor specializing in women's issues at the Aga Khan University in Pakistan, wrote in Chained to Custom, a review of honor killings published in 1999.

"Women are considered the property of the males in their family irrespective of their class, ethnic, or religious group. The owner of the property has the right to decide its fate. The concept of ownership has turned women into a commodity which can be exchanged, bought and sold."

Quote
Amnesty International has reported on one case in which a husband murdered his wife based on a dream that she had betrayed him. In Turkey, a young woman's throat was slit in the town square because a love ballad had been dedicated to her over the radio.

Quote
Even victims of rape are vulnerable. In a widely reported case in March of 1999, a 16-year-old mentally retarded girl who was raped in the Northwest Frontier province of Pakistan was turned over to her tribe's judicial council. Even though the crime was reported to the police and the perpetrator was arrested, the Pathan tribesmen decided that she had brought shame to her tribe and she was killed in front of a tribal gathering.

The teenage brothers of victims are frequently directed to commit the murder because, as minors, they would be subject to considerably lighter sentencing if there is legal action. Typically, they would serve only three months to a year.

Yes, I kinda cherry-picked that. But the gist is there...

Or how about this: http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,344374,00.html

Quote
In the past four months, six Muslim women living in Berlin have been brutally murdered by family members. Their crime? Trying to break free and live Western lifestyles. Within their communities, the killers are revered as heroes for preserving their family dignity. How can such a horrific and shockingly archaic practice be flourishing in the heart of Europe? The deaths have sparked momentary outrage, but will they change the grim reality for Muslim women?

The shots came from nowhere and within minutes the young Turkish mother standing at the Berlin bus stop was dead. A telephone call from a relative had brought her to this cold, unforgiving place. She thought she would only be gone for a few minutes and wore a light jacket in the freezing February wind. She had left her five-year-old son asleep in his bed. He awoke looking for his mother, who, like many Turkish women in Germany, harbored a secret life of fear, courage and, ultimately, grief. Now her little boy has his own tragedy to bear: His mother, Hatin Surucu, was not the victim of random violence, but likely died at the hands of her own family in what is known as an "honor killing."

Hatin's crime, it appears, was the desire to lead a normal life in her family's adopted land. The vivacious 23-year-old beauty, who was raised in Berlin, divorced the Turkish cousin she was forced to marry at age 16. She also discarded her Islamic head scarf, enrolled in a technical school where she was training to become an electrician and began dating German men. For her family, such behavior represented the ultimate shame -- the embrace of "corrupt" Western ways. Days after the crime, police arrested her three brothers, ages 25, 24 and 18. The youngest of the three allegedly bragged to his girlfriend about the Feb. 7 killing. At her funeral, Hakin's Turkish-Kurdish parents draped their only daughter's casket in verses from the Koran and buried her according to Muslim tradition. Absent of course, were the brothers, who were in jail.

The crime might be easier to digest if it had been an archaic anomaly, but five other Muslim women have been murdered in Berlin during the past four months by their husbands or partners for besmirching the family's Muslim honor. Two of them were stabbed to death in front of their young children, one was shot, one strangled and a fifth drowned. It seems hard to fathom, but in the middle of democratic Western Europe -- in Germany, a nation where pacifism is almost a universal mantra -- murderous macho patriotism not only exists but also appears to be thriving. It may even be Germany's liberalism -- and its post World War II fear of criticizing minority cultures -- that has encouraged ultra-religious families to settle here.

The problem is that much of this insular and ultra-religious world is out of public view, often hidden in inner-city apartments where the most influential links to the outside world are satellite dishes that receive Turkish and Arabic television and the local mosque. Tens of thousands of Turkish women live behind these walls of silence, in homes run by husbands many met on their wedding day and ruled by the ever-present verses of the Koran. In these families, loyalty and honor are elevated virtues and women are treated little better than slaves, unseen by society and often unnoticed or ignored by their German neighbors. To get what they want, these women have to run. They have to change their names, their passports, even their hair color and break with the families they often love, but simply can no longer obey.

Precise statistics on how many women die every year in such honor killings are hard to come by, as many crimes are never reported, said Myria Boehmecke of the Tuebingen-based women's group Terre des Femmes which, among other things, tries to protect Muslim girls and women from oppressive families. The Turkish women's organization Papatya has documented 40 instances of honor killings in Germany since 1996. Examples include a Darmstadt girl whose two brothers pummelled her to death with a hockey stick in April 2004 after they learned she had slept with her boyfriend. In Augsburg in April, a man stabbed his wife and 7-year-old daughter because the wife was having an affair. In December 2003, a Tuebingen father strangled his 16-year-old daughter and threw her body into a lake because she had a boyfriend. Bullets, knives, even axes and gasoline are the weapons of choice. The crime list compiled by Papatya is an exercise in horror. And the sad part, said Boehmecke, is that it is far from complete. "We'll never really know how many victims there are. Too often these crimes go unreported."

In many cases, fathers -- and sometimes even mothers -- single out their youngest son to do the killing, Boehmecke said, "because they know minors will get lighter sentences from German judges." In some cases, these boys are revered by their community and fellow inmates as "honor heroes" -- a dementedly skewed status they carry with them for the rest of their lives. Currently, six boys are serving time in Berlin's juvenile prison for honor killings. "In a way, these boys are victims, too," she said. Sometimes they are forced to kill their favorite sister.

This is the "payment" for over-tolerating extremist views: dead people.

 Yes, there are loonies in every faith and race. However, and by far the most prolific in the western world at the moment, are extremist Muslims. Instances of ANY other faith engaging in this kind of travesty is rare to the point of statistical irrelevancy. But, in Muslim communities, it's "no big deal"...

 So long as the college groups in the OP are only "expressing dismay", no big deal. When the line gets crossed, and folks HERE start having to fear for their lives because of "Islamic Rage Boy" (google it), then we have a problem.

 Personally, I'd rather not get to the point of HAVING that problem.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Minglings
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2008, 12:39:16 AM »
I often think of Bob Jones university in situations like this.  A good Christian school which teaches Christian values.  I often think of the following bible verses which are pretty serious in themselves...

Quote
Originally from the Bible:  If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die." (Deuteronomy 22: 22) and also in Leviticus, we find the following verse:"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death" (Leviticus 20: 10)."

And the Bible also says we should stone women to death for wearing pants (traditional mens clothing!)  and guys who wear womens clothing...

Quote
22:5  The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

I guess that I should be married at least 5 or 6 times in the past few months according to the bible...

Quote
22:28  If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her,  and they be found;        (22:28-29)
If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver and then marry her.
22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

I guess Islam is not the only backwards religion.


Tecumseh, you realize you are describing pre-Christian Judaism, rather than Christianity, yes? 
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cordex

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Minglings
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2008, 07:34:56 AM »
Tecumseh, you realize you are describing pre-Christian Judaism, rather than Christianity, yes? 
No, he doesn't.

K Frame

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2008, 07:46:42 AM »
If they can't dig the 21st century, maybe they need to go the way of the 7th century they so long for.

Oddly enough, Muslim societies apparently weren't nearly as repressive to women in the 7th century as they are today.



"I guess Islam is not the only backwards religion."

There's a HUGE difference between what is written and what is practiced.

Few, if any, Christian groups adhere to, or more importantly, APPLY, the writings that you've quoted.

That is not the case with Islam, however.

"Honor" murders are common in Islam as a means of punishing a woman who has somehow strayed outside of the "norms" of Islamic society.

There have been numerous "honor" murders in the United States.

Yes, there are "honor" murders in Christian and other faiths, but the practice is generally seen as being extremely rare in Christian communities worldwide, and it is rarely framed around a perverse interpretation of a religious doctrine. In India, for example, most 'honor' killings are over the doweries that a woman brings into an arranged marriage.
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K Frame

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2008, 08:07:08 AM »
What really slays me about the Berlin murders is this comment: "For her family, such behavior represented the ultimate shame -- the embrace of "corrupt" Western ways."

If Western ways are so damned corrupt, what are they doing in the west in the first place? Why aren't they back in sand castle land kissing camel asses and bemoaning the fact that the Middle East, once the jewel of learning and enlightenment in the world, has turned into a god forsaken backwater?
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Manedwolf

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2008, 08:11:41 AM »
What really slays me about the Berlin murders is this comment: "For her family, such behavior represented the ultimate shame -- the embrace of "corrupt" Western ways."

If Western ways are so damned corrupt, what are they doing in the west in the first place? Why aren't they back in sand castle land kissing camel asses and bemoaning the fact that the Middle East, once the jewel of learning and enlightenment in the world, has turned into a godforaken backwater?

Got it in a nutshell, I think.

It used to be the place depicted in "1001 Arabian Nights". Where algebra and chess came from.

And look at it now.



I can only imagine what the Persian kings and Arab sultans would say now. Probably something like the famous line from Planet of the Apes, when he sees the wreckage of the statue.

"You maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!"

K Frame

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2008, 08:17:28 AM »
Can you imagine what the Middle East would be like if it didn't have oil?

God, it would be 1,000 times more backwards and frightening than it currently is.


I have a suggestion for a possible law change...

"Honor" murder in your family?

Fine, no problem. The murderer(s) get to stay in the west, in the worst hell hole of a prison that can be imagined.

The rest of the family, except women who want to claim immunity based on societal repression? They get their asses shipped back to sand castle land.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2008, 08:19:56 AM »
Can you imagine what the Middle East would be like if it didn't have oil?

God, it would be 1,000 times more backwards and frightening than it currently is.

There's that famous quote attributed to an Arab in the middle of the 20th century, when the oil fortunes began.

"I rode upon a camel. My sons ride in automobiles. Their sons shall fly in aeroplanes. And their sons shall ride upon camels."

And honestly, without the oil money, it'd be like the violence in Kenya. It wouldn't affect the rest of the world. Limitless funds buy things that explode far away.


K Frame

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2008, 08:24:53 AM »
I had a wondrous fantasy moment the other evening.

An American, Britain, Russian, whomever, perfects a low-cost, high yield fusion process that is sustainable and viable.

The world oil markets would collapse in short order and the Middle East would receed into a 14th century sand-covered oblivion. Let them eat sand and drink oil while they condemn the decadent West.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2008, 08:31:03 AM »
I had a wondrous fantasy moment the other evening.

An American, Britain, Russian, whomever, perfects a low-cost, high yield fusion process that is sustainable and viable.

The world oil markets would collapse in short order and the Middle East would receed into a 14th century sand-covered oblivion. Let them eat sand and drink oil while they condemn the decadent West.

That might be best for the region in the long term. The easy oil money lets it exist in its current post-civilization pit.

Take that away, protect the ancient treasures, and let it ferment a while till the people there realize that it really, really sucks to live that way.

Who knows? One day, the extremists might be gone, they might have a renaissance, and return to the level of education and architecture the Sumerians and other peoples had.

It won't happen as long as the oil money is flowing in, though.


CAnnoneer

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2008, 09:11:38 AM »
To me, the really ironic part is what would happen if people like Osama actually get their wish granted and the westerners do pack our bags and leave them be. Within short order, all those 1,000 fat sheikhs will change from bedsheets and towels to Armanis and Versaces, jump on their Leer jets, and retire in Switzerland, content in the knowledge that they make Volvo - the safest car in the world, among so many other things.

So would go the "national" wealth of those places - long exported and invested in the very evil West, including the Big US Satan. What happens then to the local merchants, the whatever middle class they have, and the "poor" suckling on gov teat, e.g. in Saudi Arabia or Quweit? Methinks they will experience the downside of removing the top from a "trickle-down economy". Boy, once we get fusion, every CNN report from that sand hell will be the darker version of National Geographic or Animal Planet...

In a way, this Muslim nonsense is perhaps the cultural kick that Western civilization needs in the meantime to wake up and reexamine its liberal-tarnished values. The current tracklessness, ambiguities, and excessive tolerance are ultimately a result of a resounding civilizational success over the past few centuries. As in economics, there is always a "correction", hopefully followed by another bull run.

Tecumseh

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2008, 07:26:39 PM »
If they can't dig the 21st century, maybe they need to go the way of the 7th century they so long for.

Oddly enough, Muslim societies apparently weren't nearly as repressive to women in the 7th century as they are today.



"I guess Islam is not the only backwards religion."

There's a HUGE difference between what is written and what is practiced.

Few, if any, Christian groups adhere to, or more importantly, APPLY, the writings that you've quoted.

That is not the case with Islam, however.

"Honor" murders are common in Islam as a means of punishing a woman who has somehow strayed outside of the "norms" of Islamic society.

There have been numerous "honor" murders in the United States.

Yes, there are "honor" murders in Christian and other faiths, but the practice is generally seen as being extremely rare in Christian communities worldwide, and it is rarely framed around a perverse interpretation of a religious doctrine. In India, for example, most 'honor' killings are over the doweries that a woman brings into an arranged marriage.
  It is rare but it takes place.  However Islam gets covered more in the news? 

So because the majority of these Christian groups do not follow their Bible and do as their god commands we should discount it?  Where as the minority of these Islamic groups do practice this we should condemn their religion while allowing Christians to go by unscathed? 

De Selby

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2008, 07:58:01 PM »
Quote

Bigjake,

The first suicide attack on Israelis was committed by a Christian woman. 

Horse Puckey.

[Edited for Language] angry

See for yourself:

http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2369824
Quote
In modern day resistance movements, a Christian Lebanese woman, Loula Abboud, may have been the model for the first Palestinian women who became suicide bombers in 2002 [10]. The dark-eyed petite girl of 19 conducted a suicide operation in the Bekaa valley in southern Lebanon in April 1985, exceeding all expectations for men and women in war [11].

The attack that is referencing was the very first suicide attack against Israelis, a car-bomb driven by....Loula Abboud, Christian, from Lebanon.

Funny thing about that.  I've been looking up information on this woman. Turns out she was a member of a neo-Nazi Syrian Social Nationalist Party.  They were secular in nature, and accepted people of both Muslim an Christian religions. So her religion is quite literally irrelevant, because her motivations weren't religious in nature. 


This is true of the vast majority of suicide bombers in that conflict-but how come suicide bombing only gets mentioned in relation to Islam then?

The point was that it isn't Islam that's motivating people to do this.  If it were, there wouldn't be hordes of people joining from Christian and secular populations to do the bombing...but there were, and there still are.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2008, 08:01:46 PM »
If they can't dig the 21st century, maybe they need to go the way of the 7th century they so long for.
Yes, there are "honor" murders in Christian and other faiths, but the practice is generally seen as being extremely rare in Christian communities worldwide, and it is rarely framed around a perverse interpretation of a religious doctrine. In India, for example, most 'honor' killings are over the doweries that a woman brings into an arranged marriage.

No, this is simply not true.  There are many, many "honor" murders in America, it's just that here we rightly call it what it is-domestic violence.  It has nothing to do with religion.  It's so bad in our own country that the number one cause of death for pregnant women is murder...more than complications with pregnancy.  It is a vile and evil problem from which we are not free, but which we all rightly recognize has nothing to do with conservative religious people.

It doesn't in muslim countries either-indeed, it's usually the Islamic fundamentalist gangs who go around trying to arrest and crack down on "honor killing" criminals.

But there are extremely high levels of domestic violence in these places, and women are killed out of jealousy and hatred of women.  That is exactly the same thing as a love-triangle or jealous husband murder in the US, an all too common story. 

It would probably be more helpful if we could recognize the problem for what it is in places other than our back yards.  It is domestic violence, pure and simple.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2008, 08:03:48 PM »
I had a wondrous fantasy moment the other evening.

An American, Britain, Russian, whomever, perfects a low-cost, high yield fusion process that is sustainable and viable.

The world oil markets would collapse in short order and the Middle East would receed into a 14th century sand-covered oblivion. Let them eat sand and drink oil while they condemn the decadent West.

That might be best for the region in the long term. The easy oil money lets it exist in its current post-civilization pit.

Take that away, protect the ancient treasures, and let it ferment a while till the people there realize that it really, really sucks to live that way.

Who knows? One day, the extremists might be gone, they might have a renaissance, and return to the level of education and architecture the Sumerians and other peoples had.

It won't happen as long as the oil money is flowing in, though.



No need to let it ferment-they already know that their governments suck.  That's why ever Arab dictator has to spend millions on secret police and torture chambers every year.

What you are saying is more obvious to the Arabs than it is to Americans; the problem is that they don't have a say, and won't, as long as their dictators keep getting all the money and weapons they need in exchange for managing the oil cartel.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

K Frame

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2008, 08:19:36 PM »
"It is rare but it takes place.  However Islam gets covered more in the news?"

Gee, I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that quite a few of these 'honor' murders have been committed in Western industrial nations? And virtually all of them have been committed by individuals who profess to follow the Islamic faith. Could that have anything to do with it? NAAAAAhhhhh.

"The point was that it isn't Islam that's motivating people to do this."

Wrong.

As I stated below, while it's based on a perverted interpretation of Islam, the concept of honor murder has widespread acceptance and support in many Islamic nations. Ergo, it IS Islam that is motivating people to commit these murders. The concept of 'honor' murder has no similar foundation or wide spread basis of acceptance in Christian nations. When such murders are committed in a Christian nation, they are uniformly greeted with disgust and revulsion, and I would say that in the majority of cases, at least in incidents in Western nations, the perpetrators of such acts have been sought out and punished. Not so in Islamic nations, where 'honor' murderers are often hailed as defenders of the Islamic faith.

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De Selby

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2008, 08:23:03 PM »
Quote
As I stated below, while it's based on a perverted interpretation of Islam, the concept of honor murder has widespread acceptance and support in many Islamic nations. Ergo, it IS Islam that is motivating people to commit these murders.

Uh, no-because non-Muslims in these same countries behave in exactly the same fashion with respect to women.  The infamous beating video out of Iraq, for example, was of Yezidis....not Muslims.  The same is true for Christians in rural Lebanon and Syria.

There is no Islamic group, of any stripe, that claims the Qu'ran calls for "honor killing."  Not even the Bin Ladenites.  There are many people who kill women for "honor", but they do so for local reasons that have everything to do with a culture of domestic violence, and absolutely nothing to do with religious prescription.

In other words, it's very similar to the jealous boyfriend and angry husband murders that happen in western countries-everything to do with controlling women and abuse of women, and nothing to do with religious or moral guidelines.

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Not so in Islamic nations, where 'honor' murderers are often hailed as defenders of the Islamic faith.

Where are "honor killers" hailed as defenders of the Islamic faith?  Can you please cite a single example of this?
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K Frame

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2008, 08:28:20 PM »
"it's usually the Islamic fundamentalist gangs who go around trying to arrest and crack down on "honor killing" criminals."

What's frightening is that you actually believe that.
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De Selby

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2008, 08:33:02 PM »
"it's usually the Islamic fundamentalist gangs who go around trying to arrest and crack down on "honor killing" criminals."

What's frightening is that you actually believe that.

It happens to be true, which is why I believe it-look up who is arresting or extrajudicially killing honor killing suspects.  It is universally the organizations operating under the aegis of the Muslim Brotherhood.

I await an example of Muslims celebrating honor killing as a religious duty.

Edit: An example of the above, so that you can see what I'm talking about:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/885227.html
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K Frame

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2008, 08:41:10 PM »
"There is no Islamic group, of any stripe, that claims the Qu'ran calls for "honor killing."

Did I say the Koran specifically calls for honor murders?

No.

As I said, it's based on a perverted interpretation of Islam.

The Koran doesn't call for women to be clothed fully from head to toe, either, it only calls for modesty in dress for both women AND men, yet over the past 13 centuries in a number of Islamic nations that simple stricture in the Koran has come to mean full body dress with the potential for extremely severe punishments for any woman who dares violated the non-religious religious dress code.

Very likely the seeming necessity to reclaim family 'honor' by killing the offender comes in large part from Mohammed's statements that women are "sources of shame," and in many Islamic cultures, shame against a whole family can only be erased with the blood of the individual who caused the shame.

While technically illegal in most Islamic nations (honor murder was a viable, and frequently used, and frequently successful defense in Iraq right up to the American invasion) it is rare for perpetrators of honor murders to receive much more than a slap on the wrist.
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