Author Topic: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling  (Read 23654 times)

K Frame

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2008, 08:52:32 PM »
"I await an example of Muslims celebrating honor killing as a religious duty."


"The Lahore High Court in 1994, while hearing the
bail application of Liaqat Ali who had gravely
injured his sister and stabbed to death a man he
allegedly found with her, was told by the
petitioners counsel that in an Islamic society a
person found to indulge in zina in public deserved
to be "finished" there and then. Indeed, such
murder was more of a religious duty than an
offence. The judge is reported to have said: Prima
facie, I am inclined to agree with the counsel." (http://www.amnesty.ca/women/news/view.php?load=arcview&article=1015&c=Women+Reports)


"The US has empowered Islamist political parties whose clerics promote "honor killing" as a religious duty.67 As Yanar Mohammed explained, "Once the religious parties came to power, Iraqi men began hearing in the mosques that it was their duty to protect the honor of their families by any means. It is understood that this entails killing women who break the rules."68" (http://www.madre.org/articles/me/iraqreport/partfour.html)

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De Selby

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2008, 08:55:41 PM »
Quote
As I said, it's based on a perverted interpretation of Islam.

You keep asserting this, but provide no examples of any Muslims who actually claim that honor killing is sanctioned by the religion.

Honor killing happens in countries where Muslims live.  It happens in countries where Christians live too.  That fact doesn't mean that either form of killing has anything to do with religious motive.

Quote
Very likely the seeming necessity to reclaim family 'honor' by killing the offender comes in large part from Mohammed's statements that women are "sources of shame," and in many Islamic cultures, shame against a whole family can only be erased with the blood of the individual who caused the shame.

Where did this come from??? There are thousands of pages of what the man was reported to have said (I have never heard of the above, but who knows...scholars debate what he said constantly) but the conservative view is that his view is characterized by this:

http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1153698300025&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam%2FDIELayout
Quote
The Prophet said that women totally dominate men of intellect and possessors of hearts. But ignorant men dominate women, for they are shackled by an animal ferocity. They have no kindness, gentleness or love, since animality dominates their nature. Love and kindness are human attributes; anger and sensuality belong to the animals. She is the radiance of God; she is not your beloved.

I think you are making the mistake of presuming religious motive from the religion of the general populace in the backwards countries where these crimes happen.  If you look at the facts of these crimes of domestic violence, you will see an all too familiar story-abusive parents, abusive husbands, and an attitude of contempt and hatred towards women.  It happens here too, and I'm glad we recognize it for the evil that it is.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

K Frame

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2008, 09:06:42 PM »
"You keep asserting this, but provide no examples of any Muslims who actually claim that honor killing is sanctioned by the religion."

Actually, I provided TWO examples that address that.

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De Selby

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2008, 09:08:28 PM »
"I await an example of Muslims celebrating honor killing as a religious duty."


"The Lahore High Court in 1994, while hearing the
bail application of Liaqat Ali who had gravely
injured his sister and stabbed to death a man he
allegedly found with her, was told by the
petitioners counsel that in an Islamic society a
person found to indulge in zina in public deserved
to be "finished" there and then. Indeed, such
murder was more of a religious duty than an
offence. The judge is reported to have said: Prima
facie, I am inclined to agree with the counsel." (http://www.amnesty.ca/women/news/view.php?load=arcview&article=1015&c=Women+Reports)


"The US has empowered Islamist political parties whose clerics promote "honor killing" as a religious duty.67 As Yanar Mohammed explained, "Once the religious parties came to power, Iraqi men began hearing in the mosques that it was their duty to protect the honor of their families by any means. It is understood that this entails killing women who break the rules."68" (http://www.madre.org/articles/me/iraqreport/partfour.html)



Here you have one classic example of presuming religious motive from the religon of the populace, and an example of sources cited that say nothing about the point claimed.

Note that the first link is to the Pakistan secular court system, which continued to enforce grossly abusive laws against women long after the religious courts (separate system with little to no enforcement power-the Federal Shariah Court of Pakistan) flatly forbade forced marriage and had been regularly condemning honor killing.  It most recently made the news for ordering the death penalty for "honor rapists" in Pakistan:  http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/12/international/asia/12pakistan.html

The second doesn't even allege that Muslims are claiming that killing is a religious duty; it just flat out asserts that Iraqis "take a hint" and then go kill women.  If you read the link that is cited to prove the sentence, what you find is not a citation to some Islamic group's teaching, but rather an article in the "Gay City News", and the article linked is this one:  http://www.gaycitynews.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=17008058&BRD=2729&PAG=461&dept_id=568864&rfi=8 (That's footnote 67 of your quote, supposedly referring to Shariah laws regarding women...note that women are not even mentioned in the article.)  And then there's footnote 68, an interview with Yanar Mohammed.  

In her interviews on honor killing, she cites not Muslim honor killings, but the infamous yezidi murder video:
http://www.democracynow.org/2007/5/14/feminists_yanar_mohammed_of_iraq_and
Quote
Honor killing is becoming something to celebrate in Iraq now, and this did not happen before the last years that we experienced in the post-war Iraq. When a young woman is killedactually, it was more than eight to nine males around her. It was hundreds of males standing around. None of them helped, but they were very keen on photographing the scene, on videotaping it on their cell phones, on their mobile phones.

What you have found, Mike, are examples of killings committed in countries where Muslims live.  You have assumed that they have to do with religion, but they do not, and the facts are just as available to you as they are to me to confirm this.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

K Frame

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2008, 09:19:27 PM »
So what you're claiming is that there is absolutely NO link between the practice of Islamic Sharia Law and the prevalence of honor murders, and general lack of punishment for those who commit honor murders, in those nations that practice Sharia Law.

And, that even though in most, if not all, of those nations honor murder is technically against the law, it's a crime largely tried in the religious courts, NOT the secular courts, and punishments in both the secular and religious courts for such offenses are virtually non-existent, it has absolutely nothing to do with the Islamic religion as it has been interpreted over the past thousand plus years.

That's....

quaint.

And just the sort of appologistic "look the other way" attitude that far too many people seem all too willing to adopt when it comes to Islam.

You're obviously looking for me to provide examples honor murders where all of the world's what, 1.2 billion Muslims, have, in unison, risen up and acclaimed the action as being within the will of Allah as the only viable mechanism for showing a link between perverted interpretations of Islam and honor murders.


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Strings

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2008, 10:37:47 PM »
Wow... my (rather long) post didn't even get addressed. I'm distressed now...

De Selby

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2008, 11:04:56 PM »
Quote
So what you're claiming is that there is absolutely NO link between the practice of Islamic Sharia Law and the prevalence of honor murders, and general lack of punishment for those who commit honor murders, in those nations that practice Sharia Law.

Yes, that is exactly what I am claiming-just like the history of honor killings in Christian nations had nothing to do with religious Christians.  And to be precise, there is only one country on the planet that claims to have implemented Shariah law, but in those countries where the population is Muslim and where there are some organizations for determining what the Shariah is, the result is the same: There is no place or authority that has declared honor killing to be sanctioned by Islamic law.

Quote
And, that even though in most, if not all, of those nations honor murder is technically against the law, it's a crime largely tried in the religious courts,

This is not true in Pakistan, if that's the country your referring to.  The only country where religious courts exercise the sovereignty of the state (and hence, get to hand down the first sentence on all public offenses) is Iran.

It is true that in many parts of the world, domestic violence and abuse of women is not recognized as a serious crime.  The unfaithful wife defense to murder was a generally successful one in America until the 70's, later in some parts. 

But no, this culture of violence against women does not have anything to do with Islamic religion.  It preceded the religion, and it exists in all religions that occupy the states you seem to be referring to, although I can't tell exactly, because you keep talking about crimes in religious courts....and again, there is only one country on the planet where religious courts regularly exercise that kind of jurisdiction. 

I am not looking for proof that all Muslims agree on this point; It would suffice to prove your claim if you could come up with any religious argument at all from a Muslim that honor killing is okay.  You might be able to find someone, somewhere on the planet, who claims that Islam allows honor killing...but you'll be looking for quite some time, and you won't find any "shariah court" (or organization of Muslims, or any person with a following amongst religious Muslims) that sanctions honor killing.

What you will find is lots of people who, despite their religious commands to respect life, ignore both faith and basic human decency because they hate women and don't believe women should have any choices in this life.  That is not a religious phenomenon-it's a social disease that has plagued most of this world at one point or another, and that continues to lead to murders of innocent women around the world, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Strings

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2008, 11:53:21 PM »
Yes, crimes against women based strictly on the fact that they're women occur in every society. Hey, so does cannibalism (if you wish to dig into history, and carry it back far enough)...

 I think you misunderstand something: you wish to say "Islam doesn't condone this". Yet, the view that creates a culture of violence against women in the Muslim world IS based on a perverted interpretation of the faith.

 Key there is "perverted interpretation". Kinda like Jim Jones to Christians.

 And I have to say, I find it odd that most of the hits on Google, when you type in "honor killings", come up with cases that happen in the Muslim parts of society. 

Odd, that. Personally, I'd say it IS due to folks not integrating into western society.

 Point is, there is a definite problem with some in the Muslim community not assimilating into western culture. This could lead to serious problems. If we look to Europe as our "crystal ball", we see where being too permissive can lead us. Do we REALLY want to go there?

 

The Viking

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2008, 12:45:45 AM »
retire in Switzerland, content in the knowledge that they make Volvo - the safest car in the world, among so many other things.
Didn't know that Volvo's where made in Switzerland laugh.

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2008, 02:06:12 AM »
GAH!
Volvos are made in Sweden!

Scout26

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2008, 07:32:11 AM »
To sum up shootinstudent's arguement:

Muslims don't commit honor killings.
Christians do.
And besides if Muslims did do it, it's not because of their religion or religious law.


Then he does the NAH,NAH,NAH,NAH,NAH,ICAN'THEARYOU routine.

Do I have it about right ??

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html

Quote
In countries not submitting reports to the UN, the practice was condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban government in Afghanistan, and has been reported in Iraq and Iran.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,344374,00.html

Quote
In the past four months, six Muslim women living in Berlin have been brutally murdered by family members. Their crime? Trying to break free and live Western lifestyles. Within their communities, the killers are revered as heroes for preserving their family dignity.

http://www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html

Quote
In Jordan, "honour" killings are sanctioned by law. According to Article 340 of the criminal code, "A husband or a close blood relative who kills a woman caught in a situation highly suspicious of adultery will be totally exempt from sentence." Article 98, meanwhile, guarantees a lighter sentence for male killers of female relatives who have committed an "act which is illicit in the eyes of the perpetrator." Julian Borger notes that "in practice, once a murder has been judged an 'honour killing,' the usual sentence is from three months to one year."


http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/public/2003/may/clpub.asp

Quote
The West Bank and Gaza Strip are governed by the Palestinian Authority under a combination of Jordanian, Egyptian, and tribal laws. Israel has no jurisdiction in these territories. There are at least twenty-five "official" honor killings a year among the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and thirty-five a year in Jordan. The actual number of deaths is much higher.

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/

Iran: Father stones 14 year old daughter to death
Posted by Joanne_Jowan on Sunday, February 17, 2008 (21:35:07) (473 reads)

Quote
The case file of a father who murdered his daughter in an act of "honor killing" with the assistance of another man by stoning her to death, is now under review in Zahedan's general court. According to our reporter, a few days ago, a distraught woman, who was crying uncontrollably, contacted the authorities in city of Zahedan, and reported the murder of her daughter. The woman stated: "My husband, whose name is Sharif, is a suspicious and cruel man who abused me and my daughter. He was particularly harsh on Samieh, my 14 year old daughter, until he finally found an excuse to take her out of the house and to am undisclosed locations. After that, she did not return home, and I did not hear from Samieh." The woman went on to explain: "Sharif was suspicious of my daughter and thought that she is having relations with a man. On several occasions, he threatened to kill her, and, on the day of the [Samieh's disappearance], he was extremely angry and I think that he has somehow harmed my child."


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CAnnoneer

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2008, 07:36:40 AM »
Didn't know that Volvo's where made in Switzerland laugh.

You guys don't watch movies very much.  rolleyes laugh

Of course the Volvo is made in Sweden. I was making a reference to "Broken Arrow", where Travolta's character had the plan to retire and live off the dividends from a large purchase of stock in Volvo. As to the Switzerland part, they like to accept immigrants with large bank accounts and they don't ask stupid questions.

CAnnoneer

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2008, 07:47:06 AM »
SS, the recurrent issue with your posts on all these muslim threads is that you have your own version of Islam, or what Islam is. Every time some muslim out there does something barbaric, you step in and say "that's not my religion; don't attack it based on his actions; you don't know anything about Islam; I am its true face".

The problem is, religion is like a club. If you are a member of the club, you do share some social stigma when one of the members misbehaves, especially when the misbehavior is tightly linked to his membership at least in his mind. Saying "I do not share my frat bro's beliefs" simply does not cut it in the real world. And frankly, what you believe as a passive muslim is completely irrelevant to terrorists and extremists anyway, other than your providing a forest in which they can hide.

If society as a whole decides to take measures based on that membership, you will be held partially accountable as well, whether you like it or not. That is why, what Manedwolf and I have been harping on makes sense - about collective club responsibilities and the desirability that muslims put their frat house in order, before the rest of us are forced to do it for you. As barbarities mount, society will simply be less and less willing to make distinctions among the frat boys or split hairs about the internal workings of the frat house. It is simply human nature.

De Selby

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2008, 08:38:04 AM »
SS, the recurrent issue with your posts on all these muslim threads is that you have your own version of Islam, or what Islam is. Every time some muslim out there does something barbaric, you step in and say "that's not my religion; don't attack it based on his actions; you don't know anything about Islam; I am its true face".

No, that is decidedly not what I am saying.  What I am saying is that just because a Muslim does something, doesn't mean he's pretending that Islam sanctions his actions.  As with any population of any religion, not every action undertaken comes with a religious or even a feigned religious motive.

There are some abhorrent practices that a few Muslims argue are justified-terrorism, for example.  You will find Muslims who claim that attacking civilians is legitimate under the religious law.

Honor killing is not one of those things--just like domestic violence in Christian countries is not something that ministers and others pretend is sanctioned by Christianity, even though it is common in many Christian countries.  There are no Muslim authorities or groups (again, I can't speak for every crazy individual...you might find someone somewhere who has an argument for it, just like Manson has his own ideas, but that's hardly relevant to the point here) who claim that honor killing is a part of the religion.  None.  Not even the psycho Bin Ladenites. 

Citing examples of women being killed in Islamic countries no more proves that there was a religious motive to the killing, rather than a straightforward family violence motive, than citing examples of love-triangle and spousal murders in the US proves that Christianity sanctions the murder of disobedient or unfaithful wives. 

The problem with your reasoning here is that you are presuming that everything which happens in Muslim countries happens because of Muslim religious commands.  That view has no basis in reality, and indeed, the numerous honor killings amongst non-Muslims in these same parts of the world are powerful evidence that it is not a religious issue.


Scout26,

You have some great examples of non-religious, non-Muslim laws on this point.  Let's go through the list:

1.  The Taliban-never implemented an Islamic code.  They live under a legal system called Pashtunwali, which not only is pre-Islamic, it hasn't been coopted at all.  It is a racial/ethnic movement, first and foremost, and its laws come from its racial identity....I seriously doubt you could find more than a handful of people in the entire Taliban circles who can even read arabic; the connection to Islamic law simply does not exist.

2. Jordan uses a british code, and that law you cited is basically the same as the Texas law on the subject pre 1985. 

3.  Your little blurb on Iran leaves out the key detail, which was that the case is "being reviewed", ie, tried, because the man was arrested and charged with homicide.  That means Iran will execute the guy who committed that crime, something it regularly does in honor killing cases, and something that most US states don't regularly do.  I fail to see how imposing the death penalty on a regular basis for honor killings constitutes "state sanctioned honor killing."

Your examples of killings in Europe are meaningless without some evidence of a religious motive.  People kill their children, spouses, and girlfriends for jealousy and anger over their relationship choices.  This is a fact of domestic violence in the western world as well.

It's just that here we call it what it is, but apparently you can't call a spade a spade if Muslims are involved.  Everything that happens with Muslims must automatically be due to Islam.  It is an unreasonable presumption that leads to unreasonable conclusions about "the Muslims."
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Tecumseh

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2008, 09:00:36 AM »
What really slays me about the Berlin murders is this comment: "For her family, such behavior represented the ultimate shame -- the embrace of "corrupt" Western ways."

If Western ways are so damned corrupt, what are they doing in the west in the first place? Why aren't they back in sand castle land kissing camel asses and bemoaning the fact that the Middle East, once the jewel of learning and enlightenment in the world, has turned into a godforaken backwater?

Got it in a nutshell, I think.

It used to be the place depicted in "1001 Arabian Nights". Where algebra and chess came from.

And look at it now.



I can only imagine what the Persian kings and Arab sultans would say now. Probably something like the famous line from Planet of the Apes, when he sees the wreckage of the statue.

"You maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!"
  We can also put up pictures of Saudi Arabia and cherry pick the pictures.

So was that picture of a bombed out building from Iraq?  If so we could say then look at the USA and show pictures of The World Trade center right after 9/11 and tell everyone how backwards American society is.

Tecumseh

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2008, 09:05:07 AM »
I had a wondrous fantasy moment the other evening.

An American, Britain, Russian, whomever, perfects a low-cost, high yield fusion process that is sustainable and viable.

The world oil markets would collapse in short order and the Middle East would receed into a 14th century sand-covered oblivion. Let them eat sand and drink oil while they condemn the decadent West.
  It won't be a US Citizen, that much I am willing to bet on.  I would suggest a Chinese Citizen, a European, or a Russian most likely.  The USA is to entrouched in oil right now.  I could see an American from Mexico, Canada, Central America, or South America possibly but I dont think as likely as others.

Tecumseh

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Minglings
« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2008, 09:06:09 AM »
I often think of Bob Jones university in situations like this.  A good Christian school which teaches Christian values.  I often think of the following bible verses which are pretty serious in themselves...

Quote
Originally from the Bible:  If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die." (Deuteronomy 22: 22) and also in Leviticus, we find the following verse:"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death" (Leviticus 20: 10)."

And the Bible also says we should stone women to death for wearing pants (traditional mens clothing!)  and guys who wear womens clothing...

Quote
22:5  The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

I guess that I should be married at least 5 or 6 times in the past few months according to the bible...

Quote
22:28  If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her,  and they be found;        (22:28-29)
If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver and then marry her.
22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

I guess Islam is not the only backwards religion.


Tecumseh, you realize you are describing pre-Christian Judaism, rather than Christianity, yes? 

  Those are from the Bible.  The holiest tome in the Chirstian religion asking for barbaric acts to be committed. 

Tecumseh

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2008, 09:17:14 AM »
So what you're claiming is that there is absolutely NO link between the practice of Islamic Sharia Law and the prevalence of honor murders, and general lack of punishment for those who commit honor murders, in those nations that practice Sharia Law.

And, that even though in most, if not all, of those nations honor murder is technically against the law, it's a crime largely tried in the religious courts, NOT the secular courts, and punishments in both the secular and religious courts for such offenses are virtually non-existent, it has absolutely nothing to do with the Islamic religion as it has been interpreted over the past thousand plus years.

That's....

quaint.

And just the sort of appologistic "look the other way" attitude that far too many people seem all too willing to adopt when it comes to Islam.

You're obviously looking for me to provide examples honor murders where all of the world's what, 1.2 billion Muslims, have, in unison, risen up and acclaimed the action as being within the will of Allah as the only viable mechanism for showing a link between perverted interpretations of Islam and honor murders.



  I would say it is similar to the way the locals looked the other way when whites were carrying guns in the early part of hte century and demanded permits for the black folks. 

Fjolnirsson

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2008, 01:22:14 PM »
Quote
Wow... my (rather long) post didn't even get addressed. I'm distressed now...

Me too, Strings..Me too...At least I didn't kill the thread this time...
Hi.

Paddy

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2008, 04:41:31 PM »
pffftt.......ss keeps using the old, tired, fallacious moral equivalence argument.  Whenever any criticism of Islam arises, he attacks Christianity.  Then everybody cites examples of how repressive Islam really is, and he's sucked you off into red herring land.

Here's one opinion of the 'moral equivalence' argument:

    Religious broadcaster Pat Robertson said yesterday the news media and political leaders have failed to educate Americans about violence in the Koran and in Islamic history and wishes President Bush had never said that "Islam is a religion of peace."

First, it is true that reporters and politicians have not adequately detailed the violence in the Koran and in Islam's history.

But second, that by itself is not of any particularly immediate interest. Quibbling moral-equivalizers can, and instantly do, point out the nearly identical calls to violence in Judaic and Christian apocrypha, and to the violent history rationalized by those texts.

But still third, President Bush is obviously wrong in saying "Islam is a religion of peace" and "Islam means peace". Not because the Koran is violent, and not because the Muslims of antiquity were violent. He is wrong because Islam is a creed of systemic violence right here and right now.

The Washington Times also says:

    Mr. Robertson's comments in the past year have been a major part of the public debate on how a predominantly Christian nation responds to a foreign enemy with Islamic roots.

And that much is tragedy. Not that Robertson is taking another dent in his damaged reputation, but that the only consistent cultural opposition to Islam is coming from TV-preachers like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

Islam does not mean "peace". Islam, an Arabic word with a very precise definition, means: "Submission to the will of Allah." A Muslim is a person who submits to the will of Allah.

"Yeah, so what?" says the pluralist West. "Let 'em worship how they want to."

The problem is that Muslims cannot let us worship as we might want to--or not at all, if we choose. To be a Muslim is to submit to the will of Allah, and the will of Allah is that everyone must submit to the will of Allah.

President Bush says that most Muslims want to live and worship in peace. This is undoubtedly true. The question is, what will 'most Muslims' do in the presence of Jihadi warriors making the demand that Islam has always made, submit or die?

We know the answer, don't we? They may not join the Jihad, but they will not oppose it, either.

They cannot oppose it, not and continue to be Muslims. Two types of people can say, "You have the right to refuse to submit to the will of Allah." Those two types of people are non-Muslims and former-Muslims. No practicing, observant, non-apostate Muslim can say those words, because to say them is the essence of Islamic apostasy.

And thus the moral equivalency argument fails on two grounds:

First, while Judeo-Christian and Islamic apocrypha and history might be similarly if not equally violent, only Islam systematically deploys its apocrypha to rationalize violent outrages in the present day. The quibbling equivalizer's counter to this is to cite abortion clinic bombings and random acts of violence against particular Muslims. These events are not sanctioned by secular or religious authorities, but even if they were, they pale in comparison to the slaughter effected in the name of Islam every day. Thousands were murdered in New York and Washington, hundreds in Bali, hundreds more in Nigeria, dozens of innocents are killed every week in Israel, and all this carnage is sanctioned and financed by theocratic Islamic states.

Second, there is no faith or doctrine of the West that demands universal submission--on pain of murder. It is not the job of Christians or Jews to defend the West. That task belongs to the philosophers, who so far have abstained from acting. But we don't need contemporary philosophers to bear a load that is obviously too heavy for them. We stand on the shoulders of giants, after all. The West is pluralistic and secular and tolerant. Not always, but as a matter of consistent policy, with the exceptions being regarded as aberrations and crimes. By contrast, Islam is universalist, theocratic and inherently intolerant.

The derision by the politically correct of Robertson and Falwell notwithstanding, it is nevertheless true that Islam is a warrior culture. It was born in war, and it remains committed to holy war down to the present day. Unreconstructed, unreformed, unrepentant. Individual Muslims may seek to live and worship in peace. But their creed--and the theocratic states seeking to advance that creed--does, must and will pursue universal submission to the will of Allah. By persuasion if possible. By coercion if not. And by murder if all else fails.

Islam is a religion of war. To equate it in any way with the West is not just an error but an abomination.

http://www.presenceofmind.net/gsw/Islam.html


Manedwolf

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2008, 04:56:51 PM »
What really slays me about the Berlin murders is this comment: "For her family, such behavior represented the ultimate shame -- the embrace of "corrupt" Western ways."

If Western ways are so damned corrupt, what are they doing in the west in the first place? Why aren't they back in sand castle land kissing camel asses and bemoaning the fact that the Middle East, once the jewel of learning and enlightenment in the world, has turned into a godforaken backwater?

Got it in a nutshell, I think.

It used to be the place depicted in "1001 Arabian Nights". Where algebra and chess came from.

And look at it now.



I can only imagine what the Persian kings and Arab sultans would say now. Probably something like the famous line from Planet of the Apes, when he sees the wreckage of the statue.

"You maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!"
  We can also put up pictures of Saudi Arabia and cherry pick the pictures.

So was that picture of a bombed out building from Iraq?  If so we could say then look at the USA and show pictures of The World Trade center right after 9/11 and tell everyone how backwards American society is.

No, Tecumseh, that picture is from Gaza, the result of fighting between Hamas and Fatah.

You want some salt with that foot you just put in your mouth?


De Selby

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2008, 05:55:10 PM »
pffftt.......ss keeps using the old, tired, fallacious moral equivalence argument.  Whenever any criticism of Islam arises, he attacks Christianity.  Then everybody cites examples of how repressive Islam really is, and he's sucked you off into red herring land.


You need to reread my post, because right now you are responding to a scarecrow.

Not everything that happens in the countries where Muslims live is due to Islam.  Honor killing is one of those things.  Pointing out that love-triangle and spousal rage murders happen in Christian countries was done to illustrate that not everything that happens in a place where there are religious people, has to do with the religion.

See how that has nothing to do with "moral equivalence"? 

If you wanted to debate the theologies of Islam versus Christianity, you'd have to start with source material much more authoritative on Islam than the Washington Times, which as far as I'm aware, has not ever been considered a valid source of information on Islam by Muslims.  That's like reading commondreams.org for pronouncements on "the gun culture"-no need to do that when you can just ask gun owners themselves what they believe about firearms rights.

Faulty reasoning abounds when Islam is on the table, just like any other issue people love to bandwagon on-gun control, civil rights, etc etc. 

Riley, I hope you'll do your best to think independently about this subject like you do about politics.
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Antibubba

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2008, 06:06:41 PM »
One more point, SS and Tecumseh:  Whenever there is a human bomb attacker or some other horrific act against innocents, the spokesmen for Islamic communities will stand up and say "This is an aberration--Islam is a religion of peace".  Fine.  But what we never hear is "This is an act against Islam, and those who perpetrated and planned it are the minions of Shaitan".  There is still a line which "peaceful" Moslems dare not cross, and until ordinary Moslems are willing to PUBLICLY and OPENLY condemn their evil co-religionists, there will be suspicion.
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De Selby

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2008, 06:16:38 PM »
One more point, SS and Tecumseh:  Whenever there is a human bomb attacker or some other horrific act against innocents, the spokesmen for Islamic communities will stand up and say "This is an aberration--Islam is a religion of peace".  Fine.  But what we never hear is "This is an act against Islam, and those who perpetrated and planned it are the minions of Shaitan".  There is still a line which "peaceful" Moslems dare not cross, and until ordinary Moslems are willing to PUBLICLY and OPENLY condemn their evil co-religionists, there will be suspicion.

That is not true-you do find people who stand up and say that it is an act against Islam.  "Minions of shaitan" makes no sense in Islam, which is why you wouldn't hear it.  But there are plenty who identify it as a crime against religion and humanity. 

What "line" is it that you think they won't cross?  There are some Muslims who claim that terrorism is permissible-no question about it. But what do you expect the rest of them to do beyond publicly condemning the behavior as wrong and murderous?

Take a look at the attitudes you are seeing around this country-from nuke them all" to "Islam is a religion of slavery and oppression" to "Muslims all secretly support this."  I seriously doubt that anything Muslims do in this environment will have any impact on the level of suspicion that those who believe such things will hold.  It's very similar to the anti-semites of old-it would have mattered nothing if every Jew on the planet left the banking business; there would still be people who demanded that Jews "stop controlling the money." 

These kinds of biases aren't rational, and hence, they can't be pacified by rational steps.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Balog

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Re: Muslim Students Stressed by Gender Mingling
« Reply #74 on: February 24, 2008, 01:45:56 PM »
Quote from: Tecumseh
Those are from the Bible.  The holiest tome in the Chirstian religion asking for barbaric acts to be committed.

That shows astounding ignorance. Those parts of the Bible are Jewish texts; they are included in the Bible because Christianity sees itself as the fulflment of Judaism. The New Testament specifically moves the religion past those laws.
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