Pilgrims... America's First Illegal Immigrants...

[K Frame]

That's the bumper sticker on a car in the lot here at the office. Not sure whose it is, but I'm betting that it's some idiot "protesting" Thanksgiving/white privilege...

I've seen a lot of stupid virtue signaling bumper stickers in the past, but this one is wrapped in a huge ball of "don't know *expletive deleted*it about actual history" fail...

The Norse settled in Canada in the late 11th century and were there for a century or more.

The Spanish settled St. Augustine, Florida, in 1585.

Walter Raleigh attempted to settle the Carolinas at the same time, leading to the establishment of the lost colony of Roanoke.

And Jamestown, the first permanent English settlement, happened in 1607.

Jesus people are stupid.

[brimic]

The Clovis people predated the  'Native Americans' by a few thousand years... there were humans before them in North America going back at least 100,000 years earlier.

One could say that the people who crosses the bering strait during the last ice age are earliest illegal immigrants.

[K Frame]

No no no! You just don't get it, you cis normal gender specific white privileged bastard!

Everyone who was here prior to some arbitrary date/event that can't really be defined adequately or explained cogently was Native American! Peaceful, pure, children of the earth existing in harmony!

It's people like you who destroyed it all with your patrimony rape culture!

YOU STOLE THEIR CHILDHOODS!

YOU... uhm... wait... I think I'm getting my virtue signal memes crossed...

[Angel Eyes]

Settle down, Greta.

[brimic]

YOU STOLE THEIR CHILDHOODS!

So I get to be a child again? Totally worth it in exchange for being called a begotted homophone.

[K Frame]

You really want to trigger some of these people?

Tell them that any human who crossed over into North America at any time was an illegal immigrant because the Good Earth Mother, nurturer to us all, never gave her express consent for her virgin territories to be violated.

I guarantee you you'll get steam pouring out of ears...

[brimic]

You really want to trigger some of these people?

Tell them that any human who crossed over into North America at any time was an illegal immigrant because the Good Earth Mother, nurturer to us all, never gave her express consent for her virgin territories to be violated.

I guarantee you you'll get steam pouring out of ears...

Native Americans used to set fire to forests to clear them for crops...

[HankB]

Native Americans used to set fire to forests to clear them for crops...

And . . . didn't they exterminate mastodons and mammoths?

[Perd Hapley]

That's the bumper sticker on a car in the lot here at the office. Not sure whose it is, but I'm betting that it's some idiot "protesting" Thanksgiving/white privilege...

I've seen a lot of stupid virtue signaling bumper stickers in the past, but this one is wrapped in a huge ball of "don't know *expletive deleted*it about actual history" fail...

The Norse settled in Canada in the late 11th century and were there for a century or more.

The Spanish settled St. Augustine, Florida, in 1585.

Walter Raleigh attempted to settle the Carolinas at the same time, leading to the establishment of the lost colony of Roanoke.

And Jamestown, the first permanent English settlement, happened in 1607.

All that's true, but why leave the premise hanging there, low-hanging fruit that it is? What was the legal immigration process the Pilgrims were meant to follow? And why pick on them? They moved into an abandoned village, and they even had native sponsors; Squanto and Whats-his-name. If anyone did it legally back then, it was them.

[makattak]

All that's true, but why leave the premise hanging there, low-hanging fruit that it is? What was the legal immigration process the Pilgrims were meant to follow? And why pick on them? They moved into an abandoned village, and they even had native sponsors; Squanto and Whats-his-name. If anyone did it legally back then, it was them.

And, of course another counterpoint: and how well did that work out for the Indians?

[MechAg94]

And, of course another counterpoint: and how well did that work out for the Indians?

As far as the Pilgrims go, it worked out just fine.  You can't lay the next 200 years of history on them.

[Perd Hapley]

As far as the Pilgrims go, it worked out just fine.  You can't lay the next 200 years of history on them.

Or the other 199.

[MechAg94]

Or the other 199.

But whatever happened after the 1820's did not likely involve Pilgrim communities.  There weren't many Indian tribes in New England by that time (I think).  I guess I should have gone with 300.  It was all over by then.

[Hawkmoon]

And, of course another counterpoint: and how well did that work out for the Indians?

That's actually irrelevant to the question of illegality.

[Northwoods]

And, of course another counterpoint: and how well did that work out for the Indians?

Almost all had died of disease and/or fled to different territory before the Mayflower even arrived in the bay that became Plymouth Harbor.

[Perd Hapley]

But whatever happened after the 1820's did not likely involve Pilgrim communities.  There weren't many Indian tribes in New England by that time (I think).  I guess I should have gone with 300.  It was all over by then.

In other words, "or the other 199."   

[K Frame]

All that's true, but why leave the premise hanging there, low-hanging fruit that it is? What was the legal immigration process the Pilgrims were meant to follow? And why pick on them? They moved into an abandoned village, and they even had native sponsors; Squanto and Whats-his-name. If anyone did it legally back then, it was them.

Feel free to drive out, hang out in the parking lot at my office, and ask those questions to the individual who owns the car with the aforementioned bumper sticker.

[makattak]

As far as the Pilgrims go, it worked out just fine.  You can't lay the next 200 years of history on them.

Almost all had died of disease and/or fled to different territory before the Mayflower even arrived in the bay that became Plymouth Harbor.

You... might want to read a bit more about that history...

https://www.history.com/topics/native-american-history/king-philips-war

From the link:

King Philip’s War is considered the bloodiest war per capita in U.S. history. It left several hundred colonists dead and dozens of English settlements destroyed or heavily damaged.

Thousands of Indians were killed, wounded or captured and sold into slavery or indentured servitude. The war decimated the Narragansett, Wampanoag and many smaller tribes and mostly ended Indian resistance in southern New England, paving the way for additional English settlements.

It didn't work out well for the Indians by 1675. That's within the lifespan of several of the Pilgrims on the Mayflower.

[Pb]

I'd just tell them... Yeah they were... and how did that work out for the American Indians?   

[WLJ]

And . . . didn't they exterminate mastodons and mammoths?

And each other quite often.

[Viking]

Native Americans used to set fire to forests to clear them for crops...

And . . . didn't they exterminate mastodons and mammoths?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_jump
There is also this.

[MechAg94]

You... might want to read a bit more about that history...

https://www.history.com/topics/native-american-history/king-philips-war

From the link:

It didn't work out well for the Indians by 1675. That's within the lifespan of several of the Pilgrims on the Mayflower.

Thanks for the link.  Down here, we learn a lot more about early Indian wars in Texas than we do about New England. 

[Ron]

The native Americans never stood a chance.

They were up against people who were from a massively more advanced civilization that for all practical purposes could flood the field with an unlimited flow of replacements and additional support.

Technologically, culturally and in sheer numbers they were outmatched.

[HankB]

... and how did that work out for the American Indians?   

Well, today they're no longer killing each other in tribal warfare and enslaving captives from other tribes, further south they're no longer cutting the hearts out of captives atop pyramids, they have electricity, modern dentistry, flush toilets, and casinos, they're no longer abandoning their elderly outside to freeze to death in the winter . . .

I'd say in the long run, even though it was a rough road to get here, overall, things turned out pretty well for them.

[MechAg94]

The native Americans never stood a chance.

They were up against people who were from a massively more advanced civilization that for all practical purposes could flood the field with an unlimited flow of replacements and additional support.

Technologically, culturally and in sheer numbers they were outmatched.

Europeans had been fighting each other for centuries.  They were pretty good at it.  I think people forget that.