Author Topic: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?  (Read 3870 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« on: August 06, 2008, 12:06:37 PM »
I stumbled across this article awhile back:

http://www.whiskeyandgunpowder.com/Archives/2005/20050301.html

Here's one of the last paragraphs, and it sums up the author's point:

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Let me perhaps overstate the point. During a span of 190 years, mankind has burned up a geological legacy that took the earth 4.5 billion years to produce. Or maybe it has only been 500 million years, if you want to start the clock at the beginning of Cambrian time. But mankind is burning it up a lot faster than the Earth ever made it.


The basic premise is that fossil fuels are dead dinosaurs and plant matter that have been squeezed, boiled, juiced, filtered and then dredged back up for our use.  In 190 years we have used 50% of the known oil reserves on Earth.

My counterpoint to that is that we KNOW of reserves then for another 190 years without doing any exploration.  I also contest the very assumption that hydrocarbon-based fuels are derived solely from dead plant or animal matter.  I suspect they are a by-product of geological processes currently unknown to geologists (or at least to me), and are created by the earth at a constant rate.  They have been created by the earth at a constant rate for the last 4 billion years, and nothing is stopping that process any time soon.

So many oil-rich areas are located around tectonic plate faults, where geothermic processes are closest to the surface.  The discovery of oil in the Dakotas and Montana merely indicate that the tectonic forces of the supervolcano under Yellowstone also move hydrocarbons from deep within the crust to the surface via the most easily accessible path.

The fact that oil can be found seeping upwards from underneath the north american plate indicates that it is being pressed around under terrific forces deep within the earth's mantle.  If it is under that much pressure, then there is a LOT of it down there that we don't know about.

Does anyone know of any research being done to determine alternate theories of oil production beside it being a byproduct of "dead dinosaurs?"  That line bugs me so much...  It just doesn't add up.  Most dying organisms are consumed somehow by living organisms long before tectonic forces push their remains into a subducting plate and down into earth's trash-compactor interior.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2008, 12:09:07 PM »
There's one very big argument in favor of geologic processes.

Titan.

It's covered with seas of hydrocarbons, liquid methane, ethane, a soup of stuff that's probably close to gasoline, even. There were no plants there.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2008, 12:18:57 PM »
There's one very big argument in favor of geologic processes.

Titan.

It's covered with seas of hydrocarbons, liquid methane, ethane, a soup of stuff that's probably close to gasoline, even. There were no plants there.
Too bad it'll cost so much to ship that gunk here...

Nick1911

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2008, 12:21:50 PM »
That's a very interesting topic of discussion.  After all, isn't plant and animal matter completely eaten by bacteria after death in nature? 

Iain

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2008, 12:40:53 PM »
Let's make sure we know our conventional scientific thought before we get all rejecting like:

Geologists view crude oil and natural gas as the product of compression and heating of ancient organic materials (i.e. kerogen) over geological time. Formation of petroleum occurs from hydrocarbon pyrolysis, in a variety of mostly endothermic reactions at high temperature and/or pressure.[9] Today's oil formed from the preserved remains of prehistoric zooplankton and algae, which had settled to a sea or lake bottom in large quantities under anoxic conditions (the remains of prehistoric terrestrial plants, on the other hand, tended to form coal). Over geological time the organic matter mixed with mud, and was buried under heavy layers of sediment resulting in high levels of heat and pressure (known as diagenesis). This caused the organic matter to chemically change, first into a waxy material known as kerogen which is found in various oil shales around the world, and then with more heat into liquid and gaseous hydrocarbons in a process known as catagenesis.

Geologists often refer to the temperature range in which oil forms as an "oil window"[10]—below the minimum temperature oil remains trapped in the form of kerogen, and above the maximum temperature the oil is converted to natural gas through the process of thermal cracking. Although this temperature range is found at different depths below the surface throughout the world, a typical depth for the oil window is 4–6 km. Sometimes, oil which is formed at extreme depths may migrate and become trapped at much shallower depths than where it was formed. The Athabasca Oil Sands is one example of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum#Formation
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2008, 01:24:32 PM »
That's a very interesting topic of discussion.  After all, isn't plant and animal matter completely eaten by bacteria after death in nature? 
More or less.  But then the question becomes what happens to the bacteria?

To date, biological origins of oil are completely unproven.  Scientists seem to have confused the meanings of "plausible" and "proven".  Interestingly, the Russians have never really bought into the biological origins of crude oil.  That seems to be a western idea.

There are some rather peculiar facts that aren't readily explained by the dead dinosaurs origin of crude.  One is the existence of petroleum precursors found in other parts of the solar system, where no living organisms ever existed.  Another is the fact that many old, drained oil deposits have been found to refill over time.  Still another is the fact that large quantities of natural gas and crude have been found bubbling up from vents in the sea floor for as long as we've been able to observe, and presumably for millennia earlier, without becoming exhausted.

I think the current conventional thoughts on crude oil are overly simplistic.  Crude oil is not like soda in a can, where once you take that last gulp it's gone forever.  We simply don't know enough about it's origins. 


K Frame

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2008, 03:47:16 PM »
The only problem with the continuous geological production of oil theory is that geological processes tend to be extremely slow.

That means that humans very likely could exhaust the supplies of easily retrievable oil (within 5 km or so of the earth's surface).

Personally, I suspect that the production of oil through non biologic means is likely responsible for virtually all oil in the world. If biological processes were responsible, I suspect that you'd see a LOT of evidence, in the way of fossils, etc., in things like tar shales, but you generally don't.

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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2008, 06:42:30 PM »
I also think it is the height of hubris to expect that our current meager efforts, which amount to the size of a soda straw used to suck at a Minnesota lake, could come close to matching the output and processing rate of a petroleum factory as large as the Earth, whether the process which makes oil is biogenic or abiogenic in nature.

And that we can consume more oil in a year than the mass of objects which die and decompose on the Earth (if biogenic oil production is true).

Good G*d, just think of how much plankton, algae and coral in the ocean must die and settle into its black depths, drifting to the anaerobic wastelands down below the crush line!  Every year!  How many tons?  How many billions of barrels can you fill with that detritus?  Let alone plant life and animal life.

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The only problem with the continuous geological production of oil theory is that geological processes tend to be extremely slow.

That means that humans very likely could exhaust the supplies of easily retrievable oil (within 5 km or so of the earth's surface).

Biological processes aren't responsible for copper, iron, zinc or other metal/mineral deposits we mine.  We've been mining them for almost 10,000 years, but we still find new mines to produce steel and electrical cable to build everything from spacecraft to computers.  Perhaps one day we will have filtered all that material from the soil, magma and core of the Earth, but that day is a LONG ways away.

And yet we're supposedly capable of using ALL THE HYDROCARBONS the Earth has produced over 500 million (or 5 billion, depending on your math and viewpoint) years within 400 years of consumption?  Do these people have any idea of just how massive the Earth is and the capabilities its ecosystems and geothermic processes?
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freakazoid

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2008, 06:56:27 PM »
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And yet we're supposedly capable of using ALL THE HYDROCARBONS the Earth has produced over 500 million (or 5 billion, depending on your math and viewpoint) years within 400 years of consumption?

Or 6,000.... Cheesy
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taurusowner

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2008, 06:59:55 PM »
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Do these people have any idea of just how massive the Earth is and the capabilities its ecosystems and geothermic processes?

Well the problem is, those people in question did not ask the question "where does oil come from" and work from there.  They started with the goal "we need people to stop using oil", and the worked back from there.  The "peak oil" hypothesis is what they came up with, and the alleged "certainty" of oil coming from dinosaurs is what they came up with to explain it.

This isn't about the pursuit of knowledge.  It's about gaining control over people.  And telling them the one commodity that fuels humanity is running out is a good way to achieve that control.  The rest of the stuff about finite oil and dinosaurs is just the story they came up with to sell their control to the masses.

wmenorr67

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2008, 08:14:15 PM »
They can make synthetic oil and synthetic diamonds.  Both of which in natural form are carbon based products formed differently.  So if that technology is here, why can't someone create synthetic gasoline and/or diesel.  Of course there is bio-diesel but I am speaking more of a synthetic product.
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K Frame

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2008, 08:22:08 PM »
"Biological processes aren't responsible for copper, iron, zinc or other metal/mineral deposits we mine.  We've been mining them for almost 10,000 years, but we still find new mines to produce steel and electrical cable to build everything from spacecraft to computers.  Perhaps one day we will have filtered all that material from the soil, magma and core of the Earth, but that day is a LONG ways away."

Heavy elements are largely the creation of stellar processes, not geologic. Oil, as a multi element compound, is not created in stars. The sun won't suddenly flip over to oil production for the last 10 million years before it super novas and starts creating heavy elements. In fact, the sun will never be responsible for element creation of anything heavier than iron. It's simply not massive enough.

Trying to compare stellar processes with geologic process isn't a fruitful endeavor.


Also, try actually reading what I wrote BEFORE YOU FLIP INTO ALL CAPS INDIGNATION MODE.

This is what I ACTUALLY wrote: "That means that humans very likely could exhaust the supplies of easily retrievable oil (within 5 km or so of the earth's surface)."

What segment of your misplaced indignation made you read that as "all the hydrocarbons the earth has produced"?

Does "easily accessible" somehow equate to "all" in your oil filled world?

So, tell us, since you seem to know exactly how the earth produces oil, where it produces oil, and how much oil is produced in what time frames, why aren't you sitting at the top of your own oil filled empire?

And, since you seem to have the corner on the petrosynapse market (knowledge of all things petroleum), maybe you can enlighten us and tell us just how much plankton it takes to produce a barrel of oil, exactly how long it takes for Fred the Happy Plankton to convert into Fred the Happy Hydrocarbon, and exactly how long it will take for the earth to cough Fred and all his neighbors into my gas tank.


Exactly what use is it to anyone if the earth is producing 50 trillion barrels of oil a year and we don't have the capabilities to get to it?

Yes, the earth is a big, big place.

Unfortunately, too many people seem to think that just because they can't see the whole thing from their front porch that the earth infinite.



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Perd Hapley

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2008, 08:29:50 PM »
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Good G*d, just think of how much plankton...

I must say I'm stunned.  I have never before seen the word "God" treated with reverence by omitting a letter, while it was being used blasphemously.  Not that I want to lecture you, really, it's just that that is really weird.  Huh?  Tongue
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K Frame

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2008, 08:41:39 PM »
It's OK, Fistful. He's our new PetroG*d...
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2008, 08:49:03 PM »
All Praise to AZR*dh*wk44, the Merciful. 
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2008, 08:58:18 PM »
Wow, chill out Mike and Fistful.

Caps were used as an emphasis, not as a direction of anger or frustration.  Sorry that was read out of context.  Jeez.

The asterisk was done out of respect for others who don't like people spelling out god.  Fine.  godgodgodgodgodgod.

I never intended to infer that the Earth's core refines iron/copper/zinc or other heavy metals.  Only that it might push them up through the crust from time to time for us to find in new places, but that the heavy metals would eventually run out.  And that they haven't done so in 10K years of human excavation.

Petroleum can potentially be produced either from biological processes or non-biological processes, and has been in the planet's production loop for hundreds of millions of years.  It is still being made as we speak.

We're not stopping our mining of iron, so why on earth should we be stopping our retrieval of petroleum?

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All Praise to AZR*dh*wk44, the Merciful.

Y**h, * sh*ll c*st m* m*rcy *p*n y** *nd y* sh*ll kn*w *f My l*v*, p**c* and s*r*n*ty. angel

Sheesh.  Touchy, tonight.
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K Frame

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2008, 09:14:06 PM »
"Petroleum can potentially be produced either from biological processes or non-biological processes..."

That's certainly a LOT different than a bountiful, never-ending flood of petroleum that will always be just inches under the surface waiting for Jed Clampett and his shootin' a'hron to liberate it.

Simply put, scientists can't:

1. Agree on the process(es) by which oil is created.

2. Agree on how long that process(es) take.

3. Predict with any certainty where oil can be found and easily retrieved.


All that IS certain is that:

1.  based on current theory, some of what should be the most promising and oil laden areas are devoid of oil, while extremely unlikely areas have produced significant quantities of the product.

2. Despite significantly increased exploration efforts since World War II, the number of easily accessible, highly productive oil reserves being discovered each year is declining dramatically.

3. The average barrel reserve size of the new, exploitable fields that are found is smaller and smaller.


"And that they haven't done so in 10K years of human excavation."

Still trying to draw a meaningful correlative point from that line of thinking.

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Waitone

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Iapetus

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Re: Geologic Processes Which Create Oil?
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2008, 06:51:10 AM »
I would expect that a biogenic origin for oil would be provable by looking at the isotope rations in it. 

Is there evidence for this?  (I think there is, but its been a long time since I studied this subject.  I did geology at university, but that was 7 years ago, and I ended up getting a job in a different field).


I think its well established/provn that oil can be formed by both biogenic and abiogenic processes.  The question would be to what extent each process occurs on earth. 

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Well the problem is, those people in question did not ask the question "where does oil come from" and work from there.  They started with the goal "we need people to stop using oil", and the worked back from there.  The "peak oil" hypothesis is what they came up with, and the alleged "certainty" of oil coming from dinosaurs is what they came up with to explain it.

Now, I may be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that the geologists who investigated the origin of oil and concluded that it was the result of "cooking" algae (not dinosaurs) were not motivated by a desire to find a reason for restricting/condemning oil use.  In fact, many of them would have been working on behalf of the oil companies, in order to help find more oil to be used.

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I also think it is the height of hubris to expect that ... we can consume more oil in a year than the mass of objects which die and decompose on the Earth (if biogenic oil production is true).
Not all objects that die, just those that die without being eaten before being buried in a place where they can stay until plate motion moves them to a depth that the temperature is high enough to convert them to oil (but not too high, because that will destroy it), and which is also in the right place to allow the oil to leak into a rock layer that is porous enough to hold lots of oil, permiable enough to allow it to be extracted, and with a sufficiently impermiable cap rock to keep it there until someone finds it and tries to extract it.


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Good G*d, just think of how much plankton, algae and coral in the ocean must die and settle into its black depths, drifting to the anaerobic wastelands down below the crush line!  Every year!  How many tons?  How many billions of barrels can you fill with that detritus?  Let alone plant life and animal life.
I don't know.  Undoubtedly a great deal.  But dead plankton sinks very slowly, lots of things will try to eat it on the way down, and most of the ocean floor isn't anerobic, so there will be more things waiting down there to eat whet does get there. 

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And yet we're supposedly capable of using ALL THE HYDROCARBONS the Earth has produced over 500 million (or 5 billion, depending on your math and viewpoint) years within 400 years of consumption?  Do these people have any idea of just how massive the Earth is and the capabilities its ecosystems and geothermic processes?
As has been mentioned previously, "all" isn't what's important.  "All that can easily be got to" is what matters.  Additionally, the earth hasn't sat still for 5bn (or even 500M) years.  Most ocean basins are only a few 10s of millions of years old.  Continents are older, but not necessarily stable.  Oil that formed 500M years ago may have been naturally burned up or leaked to the surface 400M years ago.

Now, the fact that the Russians generally accept an abiogenic origin theory is very interesting, both for scientific reasons ("Where does oil come from?"), and probably also for social/political reasons ("Why has the West settled on one theory, and Russia on another?").  I suppose it could be possible that both theories are equally right, and oil is formed equally by both processes.  So Westerners go looking for it where the biogenic theory says it should be, and find it, thereby confirming their theories.  And the Russians go looking where the abiogenic theory says they should find oil, and they do.




Of course, remember that