Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)

[cfabe]

I went to see a property today. The property is 2.5 acres backing up to county park land on two sides, it's in an area I like and is only about 25 minutes commute for me. It's listed at a price that is comporable to what building lots go for in the area, so I assumed the house was going to be rough. I won't be able to get inside until later this week but I went by today and took some pics of the outside. The property would be very affordable and could be a good starter house for me if the house is usable. I probably can't afford to tear down the house and rebuild because building codes in the area require 1800sqft fancy houses.

I see signs of structural issues. The roof ridgeline has some significant sag in two areas, and the front wall of the house is leaning out in the center. The roof is in bad shape and is leaking inside in at least one place I can see, with a hole in the ceiling plaster. I also opened up the crawl space access and found standing water, there was a sump pump but I'm sure the power was cut off long ago. I'm guessing that a pier in the center of the house has sunk/collapsed/rotted and allowed the center of the house to sink, bowing the front out. The standing water in the crawl space concerns me, could this compromise the whole floor structure? I'll be tempted to try to rehab this if I think I can do it for under 20k. If the floor structure is sound and there's not much water damage inside, I think it may not be too big of a deal to pour a couple new footings under the house and raise the center back up. Thoughts?

Pictures are located here:
http://www.fabiens.org/gallery/v/chris/MunsonTwp/

[The Rabbi]

Gutters.
I've certainly seen worse.  Yeah, looks like new roof and decking are in order, probably some supports too.  But I dont think it couldnt be rehabbed.

[...has left the building.]

Water damage...any mold in the property?

[cfabe]

Mold, yeah probably.. it has been vacant for a while and the crawlspace has standing water. Mold decontamination would be part of the rehab. I'll have a better idea when I see the inside, hopefully later this week.

[K Frame]

OK.

The problems that I see just from the photos...

Photo 100-225

1. It looks like the oil tank is getting ready to fall off its supports. The oil tank looks OK, but I'd be very worried about its condition where it's up against the brick. Figure at least a couple hundred to put it on the proper legs.

2. The chimney looks like it could have serious problems.

Photo 100-226

3. Those rust stains on the siding are likely just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to roof leakage. Don't be surprised if there are serious structural issues.

4. Windows are definitely dated.

100-227

5. You're not kidding that roof has issues. Another good heavy snow and it might have even more issues.

6. Looks like the bottom of the door frame is rotted from water splashing off the step.

7. It may be an optical illusion, but the house may be sagging a little on the left side towards the door.

100-228

8. Garage needs paint and a roof, but other than that, it doesn't look half bad.

100-229

9. Neighbors are too damned close.

230

10. Uhm... Yeah. That speaks for itself. Roof is gone, chimney has one brick in the grave, another on a banana peel. It looks as if it has been patched several times. It may require a complete tear down. It also looks as if it might be sagging away from the house near the roof.

231

11. Nothing too out of the ordinary in that photo, except for the color. Uhm... What is that wire wrapping around the siding and boring through the wall?

238

12. Retract that on the garage. It's pretty evident that that wall is starting to collapse. Probably a rotted sill. If you want to save it, you'll have to jack that wall up, dig out all of the rot, rebuild the sill, and then correct the water problems that led to the rot.


Obviously it's going to have a well and a septic system. You'll have to have those inspected.

Things to have the property inspect for, as well.

1. Condition of wiring, especially in the ceilings where the roof is bad.

2. Any insect infiltration around the sills.

3. Condition of interior plumbing.

4. Condition of heating system. If the crawl space has water in it, that makes me believe that the boiler or furnace may be in serious trouble.


Things you want to look for as you tour the interior.

1. Doors that won't close straight.

2. Windows that refuse to open (unless  painted shut).

3. Indications of sagging floors.

4. Any evidence of rodent or insect infestation.


It could be a nice little property, but it really looks as if you're going to be spending quite a bit of money fixing it up.

[cfabe]

Mike, thanks for taking the time to write that up. I'll pay special attention to that area around the chimney from the inside, I do see now how it could look like it was leaning away from the house.

The big issue with the house seems to be water damage, is it safe to assume that if the plaster is intact inside there hasn't been much water infiltration in that area of the house?

I had already been figuring on complete re-wiring and re-plumning, I'm capable of doing those tasks myself.

At the moment I'm still going to go see the inside but I think the structure may be too far gone, unless the seller is willing to part with it at a lowball price.

More comments are welcome.

[K Frame]

"is it safe to assume that if the plaster is intact inside there hasn't been much water infiltration in that area of the house?"

Unfortunately, no.

Water infiltration between the walls can cause plaster to "de key," essentially come away from the walls in large sheets. You don't notice it until you either get a large bubble in the wall, or a large sheet comes down. That's fixable, but it's a HUGE pain in the ass.

The only way you can know for sure if the structure is salvagable or not is to have an architect, engineer, or really good general contractor come in an inspect it for you.

[brimic]

Better to bulldoze it and start over, probably cost the same amount in the end.

[Azrael256]

If you find any, and I do mean any indication of a shaky foundation, it's trash.  Any cracking in the walls, laser levels don't match up, marbles all roll to one corner, or anything like it, and it's not worth it.

If it's standing up straight, I'd say it's worth fixing it up if you're going to do it yourself.

[K Frame]

Cracking in the walls can be caused by many things, as can tilting floors, not just foundation problems.

[280plus]

Whenever I look at a structure, the first thing I look at is the roof line. A sagging roofline almost always means big trouble. That garage with the collapsing wall is probably not salvageable and probably not safe either. Then there's the septic.

Don't feel bad, I'm seriously considering a 12,000 plus sq ft  x 100 yo brick building. Just about the same shape as that house except it's solid as a rock. It's BUILT on rock. So yesterday I talk to the firesprinkler guy cause the town (and myself) want it sprinkled and he gives me a ballpark of $150,000 to $200,000. KAAAAKK!! I thought "maybe" $50,000. No city water, I'd have to put ~ a 50,000 gal water tank out there. I haven't quite given up, yet...

[K Frame]

$200K for sprinklers in a 12K square foot building?

What the hell is he smoking, or is he going to smelt the fricking copper ore and extrude the pipe on site?

I'm assuming that that's copper/iron pipe, and ripping through all the walls...

How about PEX? It's legal for sprinkler systems in some areas.


I've helped salvage garages and buildings in FAR worse looking shape than that. It just requires a little ingenuity (sp?), some timber, some jacks, and the willingness to see it through.

The one we did decide to knock down? I was helping friends try to rehab a medium sized outbuilding on a property that had been the great grand mother's.

The sill was rotted in the corner and 2 sides were dropping. They wanted to use it as an outdoor shop.

Decided to pull down the building and put up a prefab when we discovered that the entire interior was black walnut, some of it with a pretty incredible graining pattern. That 10x15 building got turned into a LOT of furniture.

[280plus]

Yup, he said $150,000 would be the cheap job.  It's the tank. 50,000 gallons of water is a LOT of water, takes a pretty big tank. It's ok, the town is so gung ho on doing something with this building, lets see what they've got to offer. My ace in the hole, up to this point, has been my HVAC license. There's no heat in the building and I can put it in for wholesale.

Yea, The garage could be saved but is it worth the effort? Same thing with the house, the structure is sagging, is it worth it to do all the work to try to resupport it? It'll probably never be straight.

Plus Mike is right, the neighbor's house looks WAY too close to me.

I'd think about it and look at more properties in the meantime.

Looking at fixer uppers can be depressing. You see the potential in a nice old structure but when you start to look at the costs to renovate your heart starts to beat erratically...

LOL...

[InfidelSerf]

Hmm 20k budget for repairs on a building that may, if not in fact, be torn down in the near or distant future?
I say you spend 5k on the garage and 15k on a nice RV.. have you checked the listings lately?  
You can get a nice living space in that range.
Then scrap out the house and save up to build a home in a better position on the property.
This is assuming you plan to live there a long time and would enjoy the investment.
either way have fun

[cfabe]

You're right 280 it sure can be depressing, I was excited when I first saw the propertly listed, but my enthusiam has fizzled out as I add up the costs and unknowns. I just found out now that the property is not only in a low, wet area, but it's also in the 100yr floodplain. So I imagine the house has had water issues it's whole life, which coupled with poor maintainence may be a death sentence. Oh and there's also no record of a well or septic ever being installed (records go back to late 40s here), so I had to assume it needed those as well. Poof there's another 15-20k.

On the bright side, I found another property that I'm going to go walk today at lunch. This one is a bare building lot, even closer to my work. 10 acres listed at 100k. But the seller paid only 48k in 11/2004 and needs to move it due to a divorce, so I may be able to get it for significantly less. It does have a stream running through it, but it's not flood zone and appears well drained from the topo map. And the zoning regulations are looser in this area, a 2 bedroom house needs to only be 1200 sqft. Oh and also the property is zoned for 1.5 acre lots, so there is the potential to split two 1.5 acre parcels along the road at the front, and save the back 7 for me.

[Guest]

280plus,-what are you going to do with a 12k square building? Sounds like what I need for a woodworking shop. I had a friend wanting to be legal in his shop of 2500 square feet in a rural area, he got the same sort of line- 1000 gallons a minute fire flow, for one hour. 60,000 gallon tank? sometimes I think the fire regs are totally out there.

 Cfabe- I am convinced the LAND is where the value really lays, for me, far better a useful piece of ground, well drained and arable with reasonable building regs and a small home, than any glitzed up huge house on a tiny unuseble lot. You can change the house, you can't change the land.

[mtnbkr]

I was going to suggest what Veloce851 suggested, but your second paragraph sounds like a better plan altogether.  

Chris

[280plus]

Yup, look for high ground...

I had a "friend" once who built his house anout 1.5 miles from the CT river in a nice new development. The storm sewers drained to the river. When the river flooded the very next season the water came up the storm drains and flooded what turned out to be a little low lying area where his house was. It had never flooded there before they put the storm drains in.

[280plus]

I'll tell you what else is depressing. Being a single guy and going to an "Indigo Girls" concert.

[K Frame]

"Yea, The garage could be saved but is it worth the effort?"

Going by the pictures, 3 apparently solid walls and 1 rotted sill with a sagging wall really isn't that much effort given that to replace the double bay garage that's already there would be a lot more effort and a lot more expense.



"I just found out now that the property is not only in a low, wet area, but it's also in the 100yr floodplain. So I imagine the house has had water issues it's whole life, which coupled with poor maintainence may be a death sentence. Oh and there's also no record of a well or septic ever being installed (records go back to late 40s here), so I had to assume it needed those as well."

The water issues could probably be dealt with, if you're so inclined, but it would be a pain in the butt.

The flood plain issue is a much bigger concern, as you'd have to get flood insurance at very likely a significant extra cost.

No septic or well?

Not a chance.

Putting a septic system in a flood plain is getting a LOT harder to do, and you'd likely end up with an elevated sand mound given that it sounds as if the water table is pretty high in that area.

If you had to do an elevated sand mound, your $15 to $20 K would be dedicated to the septic, and you'd still need to drill a well.

[charby]

cfabe

I don't think you can rehab that place for 20K.  Septic might eat a lot that up if its crappy and depending upon the regs in the county/township. Looking at the pictures that house and garage is a tear down to me. I've spent the last 12 months looking for a house and its down right depressing, the houses I want I can't afford or don't want to be strapped by the payments or the ones I can afford I wouldn't give more than the lot value for.  People want a lot of money for a pile of *expletive deleted*it.

Charby

[280plus]

280plus,-what are you going to do with a 12k square building?

Multi use / storage, are you anywhere near CT?

I have my own HVAC biz and I've been looking for a building to house my trucks and equipment. I want a portion of the 12,000 but plan to lease the rest out. If I can get around this sprinkler thing. Supposedly there is no warehouse type storage in my immediate area.

[Paddy]

Suggestion.  Get a home inspection from a licensed professional.  Whatever the raw land value is, deduct that from the asking price.  That's what the seller is asking for the house & improvements.  If the repair/replacement estimates are more than that amount, the house is a knockdown; offer land value less costs of demolition.  Negotiate.  It doesn't look to me like any lender will make a loan on that property in that condition, so barring a cash offer from someone else, you may be in the driver's seat.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Check the neighborhood, too. The place might not be worth it even as a vacant lot. (Crime, Superfund sites, next door to a rendering plant, ...)

BTW, my parents' house used to have a rendering plant to the west and a refinery to the east. At least you always knew which way the wind was blowing.

- NF

[280plus]

Here's the bldg

next door to a rendering plant

Been there...  :barf:

This bldg is NOT next to a rendering plant.