Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)

[...has left the building.]

cfabe- I think your Plan B sounds much better. The property sounds like a money pit with little or no promise of return. I have also found that rehabs and existing buildings are not selling as well since my area is saturated with cheap, newly constructed houses.

[280plus]

If that pic is slowing anybody down too much tell me and I'll delete it.

[cfabe]

Went to look at the property today, it's basically a valley floor with a medium size stream in it, hillsides up about 20 feet on either side of the property (great shooting backstop!) There is a possible building site up on the high land on one of the hills, and also a possible building site down closer to the creek. Having the house down by the creek would be nice because the hillside blocks all views of neighbors. I need to figure out if the data exists for max possible flood level for this creek or not. The visible high water mark was still well below the 'lower' building site. What kind of person would be the right guy to consult on something like this? I want someone who can tell me with a good degree of certianty if you build a house in this location, it won't get flooded and the hillside won't collapse on it. Like an engineering geologist or something... I'll put up some more pictures tonight.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Hydrologist.

- NF

[cfabe]

I've got some pictures of the property, including an arial photo with 2-foot topo lines.

Arial photo: http://www.fabiens.org/gallery/v/chris/cedar/g5_STIMEY506852363749.jpg.html

Pics of property (mostly trees and creek): http://www.fabiens.org/gallery/v/chris/cedar/

[K Frame]

Check with your county about flood maps. I believe they're required to have them for anything that qualifies as a stream (as opposed to a storm water route).

[280plus]

Nice looking piece of property!

"Hydrologist", thanks NF, that's the exact person I need to talk to. There's a brook on the bldg property. I think I might be able to dig an artificial pond to hold the water. It could double as a heat sink for the geothermal heat pumps.

[cfabe]

The property is not within 100-yr floodplain, those maps are avavilable online. Does that mean the creek will never flood? I have a feeling I should do more homework than 'is on county map/is not on county map.'

How would I go about finding a hydrologist? Open the phonebook? Ask the county?

[280plus]

Phonebook I'd say.

[Bogie]

On the 1200 square foot minimum bit...

Make it bigger. You don't have to make it significantly more expensive. Too many houses have dinky bedrooms, etc., and that really hurts them. If you're able to do your own interior work, you're set right there. Drywall, floors, etc... If you're putting it on a slab (I'd prefer a basement...), tile is easy. Think radiant or environmentally friendly stuff too. If that stream has enough throughput, consider a small hydro setup. Lower energy bills and tax advantages.
 
If you're good with tools, you can put together a NICE kitchen for about 10% of what you'd spend on the pre-built cabinets. Likewise for other areas of the house - built-in bookcases, closet areas, etc., are so much easier when there's nothing there.

If you design it so that it can easily "stretched" with an addition, that's a plus too... I'd like to build onto my house here, but the dang gas line is right where I'd like to put it...

[280plus]

I just checked the phone book here for hydrologists. None, zip, nada. So yea, ask the county or local officials.

Was the topo the RED square? if so that ridge in the lower  right corner looked nice.

Good luck!

[K Frame]

No, it doesn't mean that the creek will never flood.

All the 100 year flood plain means is that, on average, every 100 years there will be a flood to that level.

The Susquehanna River in the Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, area had, IIRC, either 4 or 5 400 year floods in the 1900s, 3 of them during the 1930s.



Here's a link on the FEMA page that tells you how you can find access to local floodmaps...

http://www.fema.gov/fhm/hm_main.shtm#4

[cfabe]

Yes, the property was bounded by the red square in the topo. There is a suitable building site on top of that ridge, the problem is getting a driveway up the steep hillside. Building in the 'lower' area would be more attractive because the hillsides block the view of the subdivision to the east, which is visible in winter. When I went out there last time my mental image of where the lot lines were was wrong, and I only found one corner pin, so I'm heading back out tonight for a second look.

As for the house, I was considering a smaller 2-bedroom house on a full basement, walkout hopefully, designed with a future addition to a 4-bedroom. I can do all the interior finish, electrical and plumbing, and heating too if I go with radiant and don't need sheetmetal work. For the house frame I'm considering a SIP kit.

I would definately consider some type of micro-hydro from the stream, and also possibly using the stream as a heat sink for a geothermal heatpump.

I'm going to try to make contact with the county soil and water conservation disctict people.

With all the hillside on the lot there's also the possibility of a partially earth-bermed house.

[K Frame]

The only problems with using the stream as a heat sink for a geothermal...

Chances are you'd never get permission to do it from Ohio's version of the EPA.

Second, a drough could rob you of your ability to cool your home.

If you want to go geothermal, ground mass is MUCH more preferable.

[280plus]

Good point about the drought.

[cfabe]

Possible building sites:
http://www.fabiens.org/gallery/v/chris/cedar/building+sites.jpg.html

1 - this is where the previous owner was going to build, it's about 8 feet above the water level, but it has some visibility to the neighbors to the sides. His septic plan was to use two conventional tanks and then pump the effluent approx 800 feet horiz and 20 feet up to site 3 to normal leech fields. That's the only place the soils would permit leech fields.  At this site I am concerned about erosion from the stream long term. I suppose that could be fixed later if it became a problem.

2 - This site is totally private. It is only about 4 feet above the water level. I think it would probably need fill to raise the level. The road noise is noticably reduced compared to site 1. Longer driveway to build and maintain though.

3 - High and dry. Visibility to the subdivision houses. Looses the feel of being near the stream. Has a view overlooking the low area. Really long drive and have to cut it into the hillside, probably expensive.

[doczinn]

Go with option two. The slight extra expense and trouble will be worth it. You know I'm right.

[K Frame]

Location 2 is only 4 foot above water table?

At only 4 foot above the water table, you're going to need (I'm not familiar with Ohio's DEP regulations for septic systems, but they are generally the same through much of the country) you'll need at LEAST 4 more feet of fill dirt over an area large enough to handle your septic requirements.

As for the previous owner's septic plans, all I can say is wow. That's an expensive plan.

Well, let's face it. All of the options are damned expensive.

Given the choice between a long driveway and a long septic pump out, I'd pick the long driveway in a heartbeat.

Nothing is worse than having your septic system clog up over a long holiday weekend and flood your yard or your house, or both.

Given all of the parameters of that lot, though, I'd probably be inclined to look seriously at buidling site 2, and not go for a basement, but go for 3 full stories above ground.

[cfabe]

I'm referring to the level of the water in the stream this afternoon. I don't know what the water table underground is. Is it the same?

[K Frame]

"I'm referring to the level of the water in the stream this afternoon. I don't know what the water table underground is. Is it the same?"

Ok. Now I get it.

No, it's normally not the same.

The water table could be inches below the ground, or it could be yards below ground.

You'll be required to have a minimum offset between the leachate field on your septic system and the stream bed, and also a minimum offset between the bottom of your leachate field and the average high water table.

The requirements you can get from your local code office, while the water table information can come from any of a number of source, from digging test pits to the code office to a hydrological engineer.

[cfabe]

I got a copy of the soil report the owner had done. Locations 1 and 2 are mostly Orrville Silt Loam, which is described as follows:

This is a deep, nearly level, somewhat poorly drained soil on flood plains. It is frequently flooded for very brief to brief periods in fall, winter, and spring. Slopes are 0 to 2 percent. The water table is between depths of 12 and 30 inches in winter and spring and during other extended wet periods. Permeability is moderate. Runoff is slow. The root zone is deep, and the available water capacity is high. Reaction is strongly acid to slightly acid in the surface layer and subsoil, except where lime has been added. The shrink-swell potential is low.

This soil is unsuited as a site for buildings, septic tank absorption fields and most recreation uses because of the flooding hazard and seasonal wetness. During the drier part of the year this soil is suited to some recreation uses, hiking, for example. The use of dikes to control flooding is difficult. Local roads and streets can be improved by using fill to raise the road above the flooding level and a suitable base material to reduce the damage from frost action. Sloughing is a hazard in excavations.

Is this telling me what I should have known already? Don't build a house in a low area next to a stream?

Can you never build a basement under the water table, or does it just mean you need a drainage system, sump pumps, etc?

[K Frame]

"Is this telling me what I should have known already?"

Pretty much.

A 1 to 3 foot subsurface water table will never be approved for a septic field unless you elevate it. To properly elevate it (based on what I'm remembering from helping my father design septic fields, he's a civil engineer), you'd need an area between 1,000 to 3,000 square feet for your leachate field, which will need to be X feet above the high ground water level. The X feet is determined by your local/state code, but 6 feet (IIRC) is a pretty common figure.

So, based on those seat of my pants figures, you'd need a minimum of 6 feet of fill over top of the ground (have to bury your pipes by about 1 foot) over an area of 1,000 to 3,000 square feet.

That's a fair amount of fill, and it's also unsightly as all hell if it's next to or in view of your house.


Here's a good link on elevated sand mound requirements... http://www.age.psu.edu/extension/factsheets/f/F164.pdf


As for basements below the water table, yes, you certainly can build a basement below the water table. It is, however, a big pain in the ass, and generally a lot more expensive because you have to take a lot more steps to ensure the watertight integrity of the walls and floor, and provide for adequate drainage.

[Guest]

280plus- I bailed out of CT a long time ago. Grew up in rural CT and watched my home town turn into yuppieville. Now I am watching the place I have lived in for 20 years go the same route. Maybe it's time to find a rundown little midwestern town and set up shop there.  I wish I could transport myself back to 1960 or so.

[K Frame]

"I wish I could transport myself back to 1960 or so."

You can. Visit your local thrift shop or Goodwill and go clothes shopping.

[charby]

280plus- I bailed out of CT a long time ago. Grew up in rural CT and watched my home town turn into yuppieville. Now I am watching the place I have lived in for 20 years go the same route. Maybe it's time to find a rundown little midwestern town and set up shop there.  I wish I could transport myself back to 1960 or so.

Same thing happening in the Midwest too, unless you want to be a lot miles away from basic necessities: grocery stores, retail stores, etc. Anything with in a comfortable drive, up to 1 hour of a urban like area is being developed and yuppified. I live 17 miles from where I work and a complete piece of *expletive deleted*it house (700-1000 sq ft) in a meth users part of town that needs to be burnt to the ground and rebuilt it going for at least 60k, this is on a narrow lot, no garage and within 2 blocks of a railway (Union Pacific) that has trains every 15-20 minutes around the clock.

The new homes in the nice yuppie parts of town, 17 miles from Ames, 45 miles from DSM are starting at $200k, but the norm is $300-350k.

The scary part is it is much cheaper to rent a house than it is to buy one right now where I live.

C