Author Topic: Commentary: Bailouts will lead to rough economic ride  (Read 12598 times)

Manedwolf

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Re: Commentary: Bailouts will lead to rough economic ride
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2008, 11:08:00 AM »
Paulson just appointed his choice to head the new Office of Financial Stability.

A 35-year-old former Goldman Sachs vice president.

Is it possible to throw up and laugh at the same time?

MicroBalrog

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Re: Commentary: Bailouts will lead to rough economic ride
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2008, 11:10:08 AM »
Paulson just appointed his choice to head the new Office of Financial Stability.

A 35-year-old former Goldman Sachs vice president.

Is it possible to throw up and laugh at the same time?

I suppose we're not allowed to ask where the constitutional authorization for an 'Office of Financial Stability' is?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

makattak

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Re: Commentary: Bailouts will lead to rough economic ride
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2008, 11:22:56 AM »
>.<

As an economist it is just scary to read some of these responses.

Oh sure, let's kill the banking system. Wonderful. (Thankfully, that won't happen).

If we do away with the banking system, your money will sit in the bank. And nothing will happen.

In fact, it will lose value as the bank charges you for holding on to it.

Also, businesses won't be able to get funding because only the really rich will be willing to lend and invest the type of money that businesses will need to start up.

Woohoo, medieval economy!

The power of the banking system is it allows the pooling of RISK as well as the pooling of RESOURCES.

Secondly, the gold standard is not the cure-all that is suggested. It does prevent inflation, true.

It is subject to DEFLATION, though.

So let's say you're a farmer. You have purchased $1000 of seed with gold at the beginning of the season. You work all season and harvest your crops at the end of the season to discover that your crops are now worth... $1000!!! How WONDERFUL! Now your money is even more valuable! Too bad your product is only the same value as your investment.

Deflation is as dangerous as inflation. Please don't just look at benefits and ignore costs. This is what bad economists (politicians) do.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Re: Commentary: Bailouts will lead to rough economic ride
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2008, 11:25:16 AM »
Gold is only inherently deflationary if you do not count 'inside money'.

But I'm a free banking man, so....
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

makattak

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Re: Commentary: Bailouts will lead to rough economic ride
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2008, 11:42:02 AM »
Gold is only inherently deflationary if you do not count 'inside money'.

But I'm a free banking man, so....

In this I hope you are meaning "private money" because I'm not sure I know what "inside money" is.

And you are right, gold is not necessarily deflationary just as our current system is not inherently inflationary. I pointed out it is a danger, though. (Just as inflation is a danger in the current monetary system).
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Commentary: Bailouts will lead to rough economic ride
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2008, 01:26:20 PM »


Secondly, the gold standard is not the cure-all that is suggested. It does prevent inflation, true.

It is subject to DEFLATION, though.

So let's say you're a farmer. You have purchased $1000 of seed with gold at the beginning of the season. You work all season and harvest your crops at the end of the season to discover that your crops are now worth... $1000!!! How WONDERFUL! Now your money is even more valuable! Too bad your product is only the same value as your investment.

Deflation is as dangerous as inflation. Please don't just look at benefits and ignore costs. This is what bad economists (politicians) do.
Folks on internet gun forums don't like to talk about deflation. 

nobody's_hero

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Re: Commentary: Bailouts will lead to rough economic ride
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2008, 01:44:28 PM »
So let's say you're a farmer. You have purchased $1000 of seed with gold at the beginning of the season. You work all season and harvest your crops at the end of the season to discover that your crops are now worth... $1000!!! How WONDERFUL! Now your money is even more valuable! Too bad your product is only the same value as your investment.

Deflation is as dangerous as inflation. Please don't just look at benefits and ignore costs. This is what bad economists (politicians) do.

But, wouldn't that post-harvest $1,000 actually buy more than the $1,000 the farmer originally invested? How is this a horrific thing, if deflation occurs during the growing season?

As it stands now, the farmer plants $1,000 and gets $1,200 at harvest time. But, after inflation (the presses don't shut down during growing-season), say, the farmer really only shaves off about $175. He's been robbed of $25 through an unconstitutional inflationary process, over which he has absolutely no control.

It adds up.

Manedwolf

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Re: Commentary: Bailouts will lead to rough economic ride
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2008, 01:55:12 PM »
Fed just announced a new plan to make it worse.

Quote
Fed, Treasury move again to help financial markets
By Greg Robb, MarketWatch
Last update: 12:51 p.m. EDT Oct. 6, 2008
WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- The Bush Administration and the Federal Reserve said Monday they are moving "with substantial force on a number of fronts" to shore up confidence in, and protect, the financial system.

The aggressive posture comes as global stock markets suffered fresh losses amid fear that the turmoil in financial markets and the squeeze on credit will spread to the broader economy.

President Bush joined the effort, saying that it would take time for the Paulson plan to buy toxic assets from banks and help recapitalize the industry.

Bush spoke after the President's Working Group on Financial Markets, which includes the top officials of all regulatory agencies and the Fed, put out a statement saying that it was working with the industry and regulators around the world to address the current challenges.

A prime spot for global coordination could be the meeting of finance ministers of the G7 richest industrial countries on Friday behind closed doors at the Treasury Department.

The U.S. announced that the meeting would take place on Friday afternoon, with a press conference by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson on Friday evening.

In an early morning statement, the Fed said it would double the size of its emergency loan program to banks to a potential $900 billion by the end of the year.

The announcement came as the central bank announced that it will begin to pay interest on bank reserves. This will give the Fed "greater scope" to address conditions in credit market, the central bank said.

Paying interest on reserves would give the Fed more power to implement monetary policy. Paying interest would attract excess bank reserves to the Fed, giving the central bank more firepower. Currently, banks deposit only the minimum reserve required.

Paying interest on bank reserves would allow the Fed to enlarge the asset size of its balance sheet without pushing the funds rate to zero, explained Robert Brusca, chief economist at FAO Economics. The interest rate paid on bank reserves would effectively serve as the floor on the funds rate.

So if the Fed paid 1.75% interest on reserves, the effective federal funds rate couldn't go below 1.75%. Fed researchers believe monetary policy would be much more effective with this approach, because the Fed could more directly control the most liquid asset in the economy. The Fed would no longer have to worry that policy could become impotent as the target rate approaches zero.

The Treasury announced steps to clarify to the market how it plans to coordinate the massive borrowing needs that will be required to fund the new emergency mortgage financing plan approved by Congress last week.

Treasury said it will make adjustments to its auction calendar by increasing the size of bill and note auctions and continuing to issue cash management bills, some of longer-duration.

In addition, the department said it was considering bringing back the three-year note in November and taking other steps.
The Fed and Treasury said that they are consulting with market participants on ways to support term unsecured funding markets.

"Together these actions should encourage term lending across a range of financial markets in a manner that eases pressures and promotes the ability of firms and households to obtain credit," the Fed said.

"The Federal Reserve stands ready to take additional measures as necessary to foster liquid money market conditions," the statement said.
The Fed will increase the size of its term auction facility auctions to $150 billion beginning later Monday.

Anthony Ryan, the acting under secretary for domestic finance, went on television to stress that top-level officials are working rapidly to implement the mortgage rescue plan hatched by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson.

"We're moving as quickly as we can," Ryan said in an interview on CNBC.
But Marc Chandler, currency analyst with Brown Brothers Harriman, said he was worried that the markets were moving much more rapidly than regulators and that Washington's efforts ultimately may be too small to stem the crisis.

Racing to get its plan in place, Treasury put out guidelines to hire the asset managers it will need to purchase and hold mortgages and mortgaged-backed securities.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Commentary: Bailouts will lead to rough economic ride
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2008, 01:58:46 PM »
So let's say you're a farmer. You have purchased $1000 of seed with gold at the beginning of the season. You work all season and harvest your crops at the end of the season to discover that your crops are now worth... $1000!!! How WONDERFUL! Now your money is even more valuable! Too bad your product is only the same value as your investment.

Deflation is as dangerous as inflation. Please don't just look at benefits and ignore costs. This is what bad economists (politicians) do.

But, wouldn't that post-harvest $1,000 actually buy more than the $1,000 the farmer originally invested? How is this a horrific thing, if deflation occurs during the growing season?

Why would you take the effort and risk of planting crops in that scenario?  Just keep your thousand dollars and spend the summer sitting in your Lazy Boy.  You'll end up in precisely the same position.

It's a good example of how deflation kills investment.  It's foolish to take any risk when you can take no risk (just hold on to your cash) and wait for your value to grow.

makattak

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Re: Commentary: Bailouts will lead to rough economic ride
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2008, 02:00:27 PM »
But, wouldn't that post-harvest $1,000 actually buy more than the $1,000 the farmer originally invested? How is this a horrific thing, if deflation occurs during the growing season?

As it stands now, the farmer plants $1,000 and gets $1,200 at harvest time. But, after inflation (the presses don't shut down during growing-season), say, the farmer really only shaves off about $175. He's been robbed of $25 through an unconstitutional inflationary process, over which he has absolutely no control.

It adds up.


True.

However, here's the problem with that thinking. The farmer invests $1000 in gold. He gets, at the end of his investment, $1000 in gold.

All his work and toil got him the same amount if he had just sat on it.

Now, let's say, there are a number of hard years and the farmer had to BORROW $1000 in gold at the beginning of the season. At the end of the season he gets... $1000!!!! Now all he gets to do is pay back the money he borrowed.

Why do I choose this example? Because this is exactly what happened during periods of significant deflation in the 1800's under the gold standard. Farmers took out loans to cover investment and then could not repay them because the value (in terms of gold) of their crops had dropped.

The gold standard has benefits, but also costs.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

TwitchALot

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Re: Commentary: Bailouts will lead to rough economic ride
« Reply #60 on: October 08, 2008, 12:55:05 AM »
>.<

As an economist it is just scary to read some of these responses.

Oh sure, let's kill the banking system. Wonderful. (Thankfully, that won't happen).

If we do away with the banking system, your money will sit in the bank. And nothing will happen.

In fact, it will lose value as the bank charges you for holding on to it.

Then hold on to your money. And hope it doesn't burn down in a fire, or anything. Your call. But paying say, a dollar a month to protect a thousand dollars, well, I personally think that'd be a great idea.

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Also, businesses won't be able to get funding because only the really rich will be willing to lend and invest the type of money that businesses will need to start up.

Woohoo, medieval economy!

What kind of economist thinks that the only way to get funding is to borrow? Under a gold standard, SAVING MEANS something. It always amazes me that so called economists are worried about the low or non-existent savings rates of Americans. Why would they save when the dollar they save today won't be nearly the same dollar tomorrow? Why save and get a low interest rate when it's not even going to keep up with inflation?

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The power of the banking system is it allows the pooling of RISK as well as the pooling of RESOURCES.

It is a good business model, when you can privatize profits and socialize losses. In fact, it's a very good model, if you happen to be in the business.

Quote
Secondly, the gold standard is not the cure-all that is suggested. It does prevent inflation, true.

It is subject to DEFLATION, though.

Well, suffice to say that gold stores just disappearing or sinking to the bottom of the ocean at an unrecoverable depth would be pretty rare. So, yes, gold is subject to deflation, IF that gold store is destroyed or otherwise lost. Which isn't exactly the most common occurrence around.

Quote
So let's say you're a farmer. You have purchased $1000 of seed with gold at the beginning of the season. You work all season and harvest your crops at the end of the season to discover that your crops are now worth... $1000!!! How WONDERFUL! Now your money is even more valuable! Too bad your product is only the same value as your investment.

Suppose I start a candle business with a $1000 loan, and I only make $500. Surprise! I go out of business (and bankrupt). A gold standard doesn't mean that making bad business decisions will have no consequence. Just like the the modern system, if your business doesn't make a profit, you fail. The only difference is you won't owe everything else to the banks.

Quote
Deflation is as dangerous as inflation. Please don't just look at benefits and ignore costs. This is what bad economists (politicians) do.

Of course, to an economist like you, falling prices is probably equivalent to deflation, which is probably equivalent to something like the Great Depression. That sound about right?

Quote
However, here's the problem with that thinking. The farmer invests $1000 in gold. He gets, at the end of his investment, $1000 in gold.

All his work and toil got him the same amount if he had just sat on it.

So some people lose money, some people don't make the best decisions, some people miscalculate, some businesses fail, what's your point? That's all normal economic behavior. You seem to think the economy is simple enough so that you can make up a scenario like this and say the gold standard won't work.

I can do that too, you know, but the economy is not that simple.

Quote
Now, let's say, there are a number of hard years and the farmer had to BORROW $1000 in gold at the beginning of the season. At the end of the season he gets... $1000!!!! Now all he gets to do is pay back the money he borrowed.

And the interest.

Quote
Why do I choose this example? Because this is exactly what happened during periods of significant deflation in the 1800's under the gold standard. Farmers took out loans to cover investment and then could not repay them because the value (in terms of gold) of their crops had dropped.

The gold standard has benefits, but also costs.

We had a fractional reserve banking system then, and we still have one now. And every major economic disaster that involved your so called "deflation" happened because of a massive contraction in the money supply. Which you should recognize, is different from increased productivity (both of which result in a fall in prices, but don't otherwise result in the same economic conditions overall).

Now, is the gold standard perfect (multi metal, I should say, as silver and platinum should probably be included)? Probably not. But I hope that's not the only criticism that can be leveraged against it.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 01:02:58 AM by TwitchALot »

Manedwolf

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Re: Commentary: Bailouts will lead to rough economic ride
« Reply #61 on: October 08, 2008, 03:53:58 PM »
I wonder what it means for confidence when people on market boards are referring to "Mr. Hankey the Stock Market Poo" and his afternoon speeches kicking the legs out from under any rally.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 03:58:14 PM by Manedwolf »