Public Schools

[jefnvk]

Just moving this over from L&P, figured it would be all right there, sorry for that mods.

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OK, I want to know what the problems with public schools are. I can't believe I am the only person to have gone to a decent public school. I don't remember any 'indoctrination'. Was there liberal views expressed? Sure. But there was also countering conservative views being displayed. Did I have some liberal teachers? Sure. Did I have as many, if not more conservative teachers? Absolutely.

I had a math teacher that had a CCW, and would talk guns with me. I had a biology teacher that was a big time hunter, and would talk about hunting and shooting with the whole class. And, as with society as a whole, I had some teachers that didn't like guns at all. But none of them failed kids for disagreeing with them, as I so often hear accused.

For all other rights issues, as in society, there were teachers that held all sorts of opinions. Some off the wall socialist ideals, some crazy conservatives ideals.

I had two friends that went to private, christian schools, before they had to come to a public school. Both of them were of the opinion that the education they recieved from the public school was vastly greater than anything they could have learned in the church school. I have a cousin who is homeschooled, and she is nowhere near what even a struggling student at her grade level would be in math or science, or pretty much anything but writing and art.

Being in college, at a conservative-leaning technical school, I have seen more 'indoctrinating' that I ever seen at a public school. Back in high school, I can think of only one teacher that could have been described as indoctrinating. At college, I have found that it is much more acceptable for teachers to teach views in classrooms.

In short, I think as with all things, we see one bad story about something, and throw everything of the same in with it and label it as bad. Just as one bad cop does not make all cops bad, one bad gun owner does not make all gun owners bad, one religious fanatic does not make all religious people bad, not all public schools are bad because some have done stupid things.

Do I doubt that bad public schools exist? Absolutely not. I have seen some pretty ratty schools. OTOH, I believe that these schools are in the minority.

Also, I think the argument 'you think that way because you were taught in a public school' gets you nowhere. Anytime anyone says that, I immediately think that they think they are superior to me, for some reason. Also, it sometimes seems to just be an excuse thrown around for incompetence. I have seen it today no less than 7 times, from various boards and threads. Things like a store requiring you to older to buy the ammo than the gun, and to describe students on both side of the flag burning issue.

I encourage comments from the other members that are in or have currently graduated school. I could be way wrong on this issue, and may have been to one of the few schools that aren't a 'gov't indoctrination center'. I could be wrong, and have it turn out to be a regional issue, or maybe even a urban/rural issue.

Opinions? Comments?

[Standing Wolf]

I went to high school in Midland quite a few years ago myself. It was a fairly conservative town in those days, and Midland High School was more so. The temper of the place aside, the actual content of most courses was mostly okay, although a.) very little was actually very challenging, and b.) the rigid social stratification, which didn't mean a lot to me one way or a dozen others at the time, later came to seem decidedly inconsistent with the American ideals we discussed in history classes.

From what I've seen since of girl friends' kids' schools and heard about co-workers' schools, things have progressed a long way downhill in P.D.Q. order. My sister is a teacher in a private school system, and has shared some horror stories about kids coming into her classes from public schools. It's costing her and her husband about $15,000 a year to send their kid to a private junior high school in addition to their property taxes, which support the local public school. Some of my brother's childrenpublic schools all the waycan barely read and write in high school, but they can spout all the latest ecological "facts" without a moment's hesitation.

[Justin]

I can't believe I am the only person to have gone to a decent public school.

I can.

[Guest]

I like my kid's school. The area I live in is ultra-conservative-in-a-just-leave-us-alone kind of way. We don't much care who is smoking what behind their doors, we don't care who is sleeping with who, and we're sure not going to listen to anyone telling us not to pray in school. We'll pray anywhere we have a mind to, thank you very much.

The school has signs that say "God Bless our Soldiers" and I've done Eddie Eagle programs at the community Halloween festival held in the Junior High School, along with the city police, and my 'teacher last year told him she was going to beat the crap out of him if he didn't straighten up. The same teacher would be just as likely to give him a big hug if he needed it, too. The subject work could be more challenging, maybe, but we work on things at home, too, and if there's something I feel they're lacking, I make sure they know it..especially Constitutional and historical projects.

I have an 18 year old who has volunteered to postpone college to serve his country, and a 13 year old who knows that if he gets into hot water, someone is going to call me and he's going to get his butt kicked.

All in all, I can't complain. The school, along with the rest of the county, is stuck in 1950, but that's fine by me.

[grampster]

Hey guys, were all from Outstate Michigan.  Woods, waters, farm fields, meadows, swamps...in short, we live in Paradise.  Most of the small town schools are as you describe.  It's just in the larger areas like Grand Rapids and some of their burbs that are infested.  Heck the high school I graduated from in 1961, Lee High, in Wyoming, MI. just last week instituted a varsity letter program for kids who read a lot of books.

If they brought that up at Kentwood or Jenison, they'd get laughed out of town.  Imagine that, rewarding kids who know how to read.  Shameful! (turn off cynicism)

[duck hunt]

I got a great education in the Richmond Public Schools, and I attended K-12 there.  Now I wouldn't send my worst enemy's kid to a public school.

I have been teaching for 13 years, only one of which was in public school -- never again.

In my case, the SOL tests and pacing guide we had to use as teachers totally dictated what we taught, how we taught it and how long we spent on it.  Kids not grasping it?  Too bad, move on, stay with the pacing guide.  I also have major, major issues with the way special education is handled, but that's another post.

I think the administration and the standardized tests have sucked the life out of teaching in public schools.  There's no room any more for creativity, passion or individuality -- all of the things that made my experience as a public school student so positive.  I am afforded so much more freedom as a teacher working in corrections and residential treatment that I would never consider going back to a public school, not even for the paid summers off!

[jefnvk]

Wolf, you're a Midland High graduate??  What class, if you don't mind me asking?  

I guess that I forget sometimes that Midland is a better off town, not too big, pretty rich.  The rest of you know it as the Dow Chemical Corporation, which has their headquarters there and a plant, and Dow Corning, which has its first plant there, and the HQ right down the road.  This means that we do have some pretty rick folks here, that does lead to the social thingy Wolf was talking about.  Didn't quite bother me either, as my friends ranged from people living in a trailer park to insanely well off.  As for the academics, we are quite well off.  Must have gotten better since Wolf went.  More than a few of our faculity hold Doctorates.  College level calsses are available in pretty much everything.

Glad to get a teacher's view on this as well, duck.

And yes, once you hit pretty much halfway up the LP, it is all the paradise that gramps described, with none of the nonsense that comes out of that Detroit place.

[thorn]

my dad teaches at  i think its one of those specialty high schools , but there are still many animals.
(in NYC, ten blocks from ground zero)

he teaches physics, so its only students who want to go to college.

from what he tells me , the vast majority of city kids are animals. from what i have seen here, same.

they dont think they can go to college, s oschool doesnt matter, only how tough/ rich/ hot they ar eto the other kids is what matters.

i remember graduating most of us noticed the kids below us were progressively worse , just less disciplne at home i think = less paying attention in class.

anyway point is at least in NY there is/was plenty of good education to be had at public school, but many kids don't want it. thne the school slips, it gets less funding, the nerd classes get smaller, the dunce classes get bigger.
snowball, and inner city public schools have gotten out of control to the point anyone who can afford it sends their kids elsewhere.
the kids teach each other not to care about school, smaller and smaller numbers actually try to get thru school.

now i bet any suburb its a very different picture, and rural areas differnet still.

but the cities have the largest number of students, so they are what makes news, and cities are great at turning out wicked disasters of all sorts so whne the schools go bad, it all goes bad

[Guest]

I went to a mid-level parochial high school. The only comment i can make with regards to public schools in my area at the time is that when kids got kicked out of my school for academic reasons, they usually entered into the public school system so far ahead of the curve that they advanced nearly a full grade level. And we are talking about kids that i would classify as having a future in the rock-breaking industry.

[Brrlgrrl]

My siblings and I went through the public school system in Ca.  Although most of us graduated early using alternative means, we gained a decent education in spite of the public school system.  Our education did not begin and end in school.  We have two intelligent parents who took the time to reeducate where necessary.  Including, but not limited to, politics, religion, and philosophy. (the unspoken three!)
     Nineteen years later and my stepdaughter just graduated High School-barely.  She has absolutely no idea what is going on around the world, much less in our own country.  Her political views have been force fed by liberal teachers and Ive attempted to reeducate her.  Since she was already sixteen when we met, there wasnt much hope.  I would explain that she should read everything she could and not take one persons opinion.  I suggested she watch the news.  I would ask her what her opinion was on subjects and she would magically channel her lib teachers.  When I would try to show her where the teachers logic was flawed, she would say I was trying to force my opinion on her.  Time will tell with this one, but I think some life experience will do more than public school or parenting ever could.
      For just a little background, Dad is a single parent and a bit of a hippie, Grandma a socialist who thinks that France is the best place in the world, and me-the wicked stepmother- very conservative, Christian, red blooded American woman.  I generally love a challenge, but in this situation leaving them to their own delusions is best, as well as entertaining.
     When stepdaughter came home from school in 11th grade convinced Socialism was the answer, I asked her this series of questions:
Me: What is your GPA?
SD:  3.2
ME:  How would you like it if your teacher took part of your hard earned GPA and shared it with the kids in class that do not work hard?
SD:  That wouldnt be fair
ME:  Why not?
SD:   Ive worked hard for my grades, those kids dont try at all.
ME: Thats Socialism.
     This year Im sure she would have liked to have someone share their GPA with her.
     I don't think the school matters as much as what happens at home.  Just be prepared to supliment their education constantly, and start early.  Sometimes it is too late to teach an old dog a new trick.

[RevDisk]

I went to school in a conservative area.  Our school board was more pre-occupied with attempting to ban teaching of evolution, dinosaurs, etc than actually teaching useful information.  They attempted various book bannings.   Oh yea, and the School Board was kind enough to basically declare war on a segment of its students.

Teachers were alright.  Some good, some bad.   I got in trouble a lot because I'd read during class.  If I was bored by the class (and I always was), I'd whip out a book and start reading.   If a teacher asked me a question, I'd ask them to repeat it, give them the correct answer, and then go back to reading.   It annoyed a good number of teachers.  My English teacher had the most creative solution.  She'd allow me to read during class, but she got to pick the book.

I got a good education dispite right wing and left wing loonies.  This education was called "the library", where I not only checked out books but also volunteered regularly.   The school library was not very good, but the local township library and a nearby college library were excellent.

[50 Shooter]

Hmmm, let's see. My son has been bitten, tripped (numerous times), scratched, spit on and the last punched/slapped in the back. I've had words with the school about it everytime but the last one where he was hit in the back was the final straw.

When the school called about it, my wife and I went there to pick him. When I saw the mark on his back (about 6-8" in dia.) I started to flip out. Told them they can go to hell and took my kid to the Sheriff's dept. to file charges. That's another story as they didn't do squat and said it was a "school" issue. Needless to say it's on record as we also took my son to the Hospital to be checked.

Maybe they should change it to the Public Abuse System. At least my son won't be returning to that school and if it continues at his new school we'll pull him out and home school him.

[Winston Smith]

I'm going through public high school in san francisco. And for whatever reason I'm managing to get a fairly good education. I think it's based on the student, rather than the school. They give us enough rope to hang ourselves, so those who don't want to work, don't. But those who do, have a greased track.

I have a few really conservative teachers, but  many many heavy lib teachers. Bias is fine by me, as long as they've made clear where they are coming from. One teacher didn't, and I got her so apoplectic and splotchy with anger... her bias was fairly friggin apparent.

Like someone else said, school is not the deciding factor. Those who wish to learn, will learn. Those who wish not to, won't.

They need more armed security at schools, though. I've seen weaponry, drugs, sex, yadda yadda. And I go to a small school. 650, as opposed to some of the bigger ones, like 3000.

In short, schools are only as good as their students. "Out there" teachers can be brought into quick reign by an intelligent student or two (i've done it).  Students are frequently more intelligent than teachers, and if one student isn't, than two sure are, and if two aren't, than a whole classroom full are. There's no excuse for a bad education, what with the internet and libraries... and the GED... and community college.... no excuse whatsoever.

[jefnvk]

I was hoping you'd weigh in, Winston.  Glad to hear from someone in a Cali public school.  Although I can't agree on the armed security, for where I go at least.  Could be your situtation is different, though.  We had one old guy that pretty much made sure to take reports when cars were damaged.

50 - I can see why you'd be angry at public schools.  I'd probably be too.  The fact that the assualt was a school matter would probably have me angry at the police department, too.

Brrrgrl - good analogy of socialism

RevDisk - I love doing that, except most of my teachers didn't care.  They realized that I was not the one that needed to pay attention, as I was usually doing great in the class.

[Guest]

The school has signs that say "God Bless our Soldiers"

Good thing they are not being indoctrinated!

 Public schools are a form of socialistic welfare system. People that don't have children in the school are nevertheless forced to pay to educate other peoples' children. Much of what is taught is determined at the federal level so of course it is indoctrination. Public schools should be closed.

[grampster]

This is a great thread.  I hope it has a little life.  Maybe y'all can induce some folks to come over and comment from some other venues that you inhabit.

A couple days ago a large group of teachers, administrators, and school groupies went to Lansing to "demand" that the state budget include an "automatic" increase in government school funding each year.

I'm sorry but who appointed the government school system as chief idol.  Don't get me wrong, I think school is a great idea for two reasons:  It's a place where those who want to learn can and it's a place where those who don't can be civilized a bit. (They don't want to learn because parents are too involved in themselves to help them desire to learn and it, unfortunately, is left up to the school to attempt to civilize the child a bit for the common good.)

The sad thing about our government schools is that they have all of the tools available to get the job done, but the Left has emasculated their ability to perform.  
All this crap about testing is exactly that, crap.  It is the loser's way out.  Human nature being as it is, when you have all this "regulation" and "format" education they begin to teach to the test, not to educate the child.

Rote memorization, phonics,  and the repetative nature of education was always the best way.  The only way you civilize young bipeds is to do it this way.  School is as much about civilizing the obnoxious little critters as it is educating them, perhaps even more so today when a lot of them don't get the direction in the home.  If you can teach them to read and figger, they can pretty much go from there.

Got more to say, but it's time to take SWMBO to dinner and I learned about wimmin in the gubmint school.  Very good education, that.

grampster

[jefnvk]

If you're interested grampster, here is the same topic I started over at TFL: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173999

Its kinda degenerated into an argument on what should be taught in school, but there is some good opinions there too.

[crt360]

I went to public schools.  My experience was pretty similar to jefnvk's.

I found a class here and there to be less than challenging, but there were others that were hard enough to make up for it.  I'm pretty sure everyone in our school system at that time could read and write by first grade.

No one was indoctrinated in any liberal or conservative leaning.  Art and music classes were plentiful.  Participation in athletics or P.E. was required.  A prayer was said before every football game and nobody made a big deal out of it either way.  Bible study groups and prayer meetings were non-existent - that's what Sunday school was for.  I didn't give much thought at the time to the problem with a prayer before the football game, but I'm glad I didn't attend a school that required participation in a religious activity.

I actually liked public school.  I liked having a school with a large, diverse student body.  I liked playing for athletic teams that people other than the players parents came to see.  

I got to know and become friends with all walks of people: some who got new BMWs for their first cars and others that I gave rides home to after football practice - rides home to such a poor part of town that the city didn't even pave the streets.  Our school had hicks that roped stuff from the back of their trucks in the parking lot.  We had the metalheads, always with long hair, a concert shirt and a smoke.  We had hot-rodders and skateboarders, preppies and punks, jocks and nerds.  The Mexicans were just figuring out how to lower their rides.  A couple of black guys I knew got so good at break-dancing, they moved to California to become famous.  With the exception of an a-hole or two, I got along quite well with all of these folks and learned a lot (not necessarily from books or teachers) in the process.

I don't think anyone I went to school with graduated unprepared for college and thats where most of us went.  Others hung around, got jobs, had kids, some got married and a few got in trouble with the law, but they all had a decent education.

If public schools have really gotten that bad, I'm sorry to hear it.  I have yet to meet a high school kid, not otherwise mentally impaired, who can't read or write.  I don't mean high school aged, but one who actually gets their butt to class every day, completes assigned work, and passes the tests.

One of the worst things I see happening to public schools is the overnight spawning of all the private schools and the overly concerned parents keeping their talented kids out of public school because theyre afraid they might not learn to read or get enough Christian indoctrination there.  Instead of participating and trying to help make their public school better they turn their backs and throw lots of money and their kids to a private school.  It makes them feel better.  If the private school is really good and they feel its worth it, thats great.  If the kids like it and are challenged by it, then thats even better.

Ive talked to kids whove recently graduated from local public schools and they seem fine to me - some are a little plumper than they were in my day, but I bet they know as much if not more than we did.

[RevDisk]

The sad thing about our government schools is that they have all of the tools available to get the job done, but the Left has emasculated their ability to perform.  
All this crap about testing is exactly that, crap.  It is the loser's way out.  Human nature being as it is, when you have all this "regulation" and "format" education they begin to teach to the test, not to educate the child.

Ah, perhaps the Left has destroyed some HS's, but it was the religious fanatics that did their best to destroy mine.  

I still remember the day when my school board declared war on a segment of its students.  I learned many valuable lessons from the religious fundimentalists.  The fundimentals of guerilla warfare, reason and logic do not work with militant religious fundimentalists, and various tactics for defeating them.  It was very educating, but perhaps not in the traditional view.  

If you want, grampster, I can send you the de facto declaration of war my school board made on its students.   Yes, Left wing loonies are a very real threat.  But they are not the only threat.



That was the uh, militant part of my public education.   The other part that annoyed me was the cookie cutter approach.  Not all people think exactly alike.   People move at different speeds on different things.   Just because a person is slow at a perticular area of study does not mean they are stupid.   Perhaps they just have a different aptitude.  Say, English, geology, or whatever.    Everyone should be taught how to read, count, and knew general civics lessons.   But trying to force everyone into the exact same mold rarely works.

[roo_ster]

jefnvk:
Your experience in the exception, I would wager.  Public schools are not what they used to be.  The studies done by the armed services since WW1 on their enlistes shows the death spiral of public school quality.

I attended both private & public schools in five different states north and south of the M-D line.  My father worked for a corporation that moved him around a lot. I learned to adapt quickly.  This whole "we've been friends since gradeschool" deal is foreign to my experience.

The quality of academics of the public schools ranged from abysmal to pretty good.  The biases were boringly uniform.  Some teachers pushed it hard, whereas some just took it for granted that all smart people thought as they did and were blind to their biases.  The leftist bias was pervasive in nearly all the texts and materials used for instruction.  I was safe from indoctrination only in math texts.  The anti-christian campaign as also present in all government schools I attended.  I pretty much became a heathen piece of trash towards the end of my institutionalization.  I recall some girl actually reading her Bible in class and I looked at her like she had grown a second head. A buddy of mine asked, "Is that legal to do at school?"

After my experinces with both affluent and poor government school districts I am sure of two things:
1. The government school monopoly must end.
2. My children will never attend a government school, even if I have ot work three jobs & dig ditches.

If the government schools did what they used to (educate, assimilate, teach moral behavior, teach discipline), I would be in favor of keeping them.  I lean libertarian, but I do not lightly advocate busting up institutions that are serving their purpose just so I can live in some libertarian dis/utopia.

I also stray form libertarian orthodoxy in that I can see a place for taxpayer-funded education...with the education to be provided for by the market, NOT the government.

**********

mercedesrules wrote:
Public schools should be closed.

Agreed.

grampster wrote:
School is as much about civilizing the obnoxious little critters as it is educating them, perhaps even more so today when a lot of them don't get the direction in the home.

Yep.  We can se the effect of NOT civilizing them.  We end up with sawed-off little sociopaths running around in school...until they aren't so little.

crt360 wrote:
Instead of participating and trying to help make their public school better they turn their backs and throw lots of money and their kids to a private school.

BTDT, got the contempt from the government school machine zombies.  It is hard to reform an institution that you can not withold your funds from.  The gov't takes your money and you have no say where it is spent.  The tax-SPENDERS think the funds are their right.  Government-provided education is a lost cause.  The consumers have no power and even if they do not consume the product, they have to pay for it.  There is no incentive for the providers to change.  They'll get paid, anyway.  Even the better schools in affluent areas indoctrinate the charges in the radical secularist, anti-American ethic that pervades academia.

The contempt I hold for the government education machine is deep and abiding.  I come by it the honest way, through experience on the inside and working with the vile bureaucrats on the outside.  Fire them all and let them find honest work.

[Ron]

Yes, Left wing loonies are a very real threat.  But they are not the only threat.

You make the case for getting government out of the school business.

It is virtually impossible for the public schools to put together a curriculum that doesn't undermine or offend someones world view.

Your outrage at the Christians trying to take over your school is the same outrage Christians feel about the government subsidised
anti-christian curriculums of some schools.

More indoctrinating goes on in Christian schools than public schools,  but that is the point behind a Christian school.

The public schools I attended are some of the higher rated schools in Illinios.  I recieved a pretty good education considering how little effort I put into it.

I do remember a lot of eco-babble going on,  and this was in the late 70's early 80's.

[jefnvk]

It is virtually impossible for the public schools to put together a curriculum that doesn't undermine or offend someones world view.

It is quite hard to get 300 million people to agree on what is right and wrong.

[migoi]

Now that everyone has had a couple of days to decry the state of public schools..how about some solutions about how to make them better?

How about real, do-able solutions? The criteria for these solutions need to be based on reality...as in being able to be done within existing budgets, not pie-in-the sky types of solutions like "make parents do their jobs".

This thread is actually pretty funny when linked to:

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/viewtopic.php?id=890 (teaching in public school is about as off-shore proof as can be)

and

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/viewtopic.php?id=890 (think about having this kid in your public school classroom)

have fun....

migoi

[thorn]

uh how about if the govt wastes less, devleopers quit coming up with loopholes to not pay school building taxes.
we could stop subsidizing rich corporations, and actually fund the education system.

maybe if a few rich people realized they would have to imprison less people later, and have more valuable workers who could in turn earn more for them, we could getr better funding. until then no one looks past today's dollar or their own tiny picture, and the schools keep failing . parents with enough time and money press their kids to be the best, send them to better schools. poor folks- become less educated and poorer

[RevDisk]

You make the case for getting government out of the school business.

Perhaps.  

It is virtually impossible for the public schools to put together a curriculum that doesn't undermine or offend someones world view.

Your outrage at the Christians trying to take over your school is the same outrage Christians feel about the government subsidised anti-christian curriculums of some schools.

Sticking to the facts instead of unsupported doctrine (look up the definition of "faith") would be a big help.   Most education is fairly mundane.  I don't see how math or basic geology can offend someone's world view.

My outrage was at my school board declaring war on its students.   Using coercion and threats to promote zealotry is not rather condusive to a positive learning environment.  Why should a religion attempt to use schools to force their religion on students that do not want to accept said religious indoctrination?   Non-religious curriculum is NOT the same thing as an anti-Christian curriculum.   Again, as I said, right wing loonies can be as equally dangerous as left wing loonies.

When students need to resort to guerilla warfare to ensure their safety, something is very wrong.  

Of course some people disagreed with my views and took Exodus 22:18 slightly too literally.   Again, it is not possible to negiotate with religious zealots that believe coersion violence against non-believers is holy.   My outrage was state sponsored coercion and unprovoked violence.  If some folks see non-religious education as being equally horrific, I question their sanity.   But some people believe this, as you say.   This is why I own firearms.

More indoctrinating goes on in Christian schools than public schools,  but that is the point behind a Christian school.

That's a matter of choice.   If a parent wants to send their kid to a religious school, fine.   Forcing indoctrination on children without parential consent is an unwise move.