Public Schools

[grampster]

OK.  Suggestions.
 Eliminate Federal intrusion in the business of educating children.
All taxes used for education need to be equally distributed by the states to all public schools.
   Rich or poor, they get the same financial support.  The states should NOT mandate a curriculum beyond Reading (phonics), Math (rote memorization), English (comprehension, structure, spelling), History and Civics.  Leave all other curriculum decisions to the local school board.  
School Board members and members of their families may not be employed in any way by the school.  
School Board members should be held criminally and civilly liable for any mis-mal or non-feasance by Administrators.  
No more staggered elections for School Board members:  All up for election at the same time every 4 years.
Implementation of Life Skills, The Arts, and The Trades to start in middle school, continue into high school.  Not all kids need to go to college.  In fact, most college grads, unless they are in medicine or some of the other Arts, did not get much value from advanced education other than a networking ability.  High School grads with 7 years of Life Skills, Arts, or Trades come out of k-12 with a running start.  This says nothing about catching the attention of some kids early and instill in them a desire to learn, something our schools neglect today.  If a kid is not a natural high achiever he is written off early by most schools and "educators"  (There are exceptions...I know)
How's that for starters?  Do I have any votes for me being King?

[Ron]

Sticking to the facts instead of unsupported doctrine (look up the definition of "faith") would be a big help.   Most education is fairly mundane.  I don't see how math or basic geology can offend someone's world view.

The problem is much of the day is spent in classes that lend themselves to editorializing,  social science,  art,  english/literature, sex ed, history etc...

Almost all facts and knowledge are filtered through someones world view (their religion) as they are being taught.  Maybe some of the hard sciences are less prone to it but it happens still.

I think schools should be opened to market forces,  let the good ones survive.  If you are concerned about poor communities then government vauchers and tax credits will make it profitable to run a school in lower income areas.

Forcing indoctrination on children without parential consent is an unwise move.

That is what government schools have been doing for years.

[jefnvk]

All taxes used for education need to be equally distributed by the states to all public schools.

What do you think is a fair way to distribute it?  I hear people all the time mention a per student pricing, but that unfairly favors the bigger schools.

As for my fixes:
NEA needs to be realigned.  A union is a good thing.  A union that won't allow bad teachers to be fired, and good, less senior  teachers to be promoted over leser, more senior teachers is not good (always seemed to be a complaint by my teachers)

Maybe a solution to my question to gramps answer, but set a size limit on schools.  No more high schools with 4000 kids, and no more with a hundred or so.  Big schools lead to overcrowding, little schools keep kids from areas of study that big schools can offer.

No more passing kids so they don't have to be held back.  They don't have the credits for graduiation, too bad for them.  Don't give them a D- just so they can leave.  And start this WAY before high school, I could have failed every grade up to 9th, and never been held back without my parents permission (which they would have given, had I tried this).

[Stand_watie]

Hey guys, were all from Outstate Michigan.  Woods, waters, farm fields, meadows, swamps...in short, we live in Paradise.  Most of the small town schools are as you describe.  It's just in the larger areas like Grand Rapids and some of their burbs that are infested.  Heck the high school I graduated from in 1961, Lee High, in Wyoming, MI. just last week instituted a varsity letter program for kids who read a lot of books.

If they brought that up at Kentwood or Jenison, they'd get laughed out of town.  Imagine that, rewarding kids who know how to read.  Shameful! (turn off cynicism)

Two words Grampster. Muskegon Heights. Mom went there in the early 50's and it was o.k. It's a cesspool now. I understand they regularly have outstanding athletic teams though.

I went to a tiny Christian school in a small town five miles away and got a good education. My little brother went to the fairly large (large class B) public school across the street and also got a good education, although he got exposed to more drugs and sex, but less anger, resentment  and outright rebellion than I did.

I think most schools are what the parents make of them. An expensive private school that parents are attempting to use as a "reform school" for their kids is going to turn out juvenile delinquents from those particular parents. A crummy inner city school attended by children who have parents who see that their kids attend the best classes available in the school and apply themselves is going to have a good result from those particular kids.

[Winston Smith]

If a kid is not a natural high achiever he is written off early by most schools and "educators"

WRONG. Dead wrong. From what I have experienced, and what I have heard, educators actively write off high achievers. Low achievers need attention to pull up test scores, thus bringing the school more money, while the high acheivers are still shuffled through the system even though they admittedly don't need it... to keep the attendance up and the "per-head" funding coming.

Schools are run like anything else, it's all about the money.

[Norton]

As a teacher, having taught in schools of 425, 1200 and 3200 students respectively and in settings ranging from very rural to highly urbanized I've seen a few positive things in common and several negative things in common and some of the suggestions here are right on target IMHO.

Size limits are good.  The school of 425 students was wonderful in that you pretty much knew or at least recognized every kid in the school and they definitely knew who all of the teachers were.  There was a strong feeling of community within the building and a sense of calmness that simply can't exist in a building with 3200 kids.




Local control is definitely good.  Let the folks most directly impacted by the quality of the school make the decision on what is best for the school.  

A couple of things that stand out in my mind are, first, an article I read about Montgomery County, MD putting a cap on how much money a single family can donate to their child's school so that no given school will receive too much more money than any other school....to level the playing field.  So, a family of means with a sincere interest in assisting their kid's school can not contribute money that exceeds a certain amount.  If a particular community values education and wishes to have an exceptional school in their locale, then they schould be able to support it by whatever means they are able.

Secondly, from first hand knowledge and experience....in Prince George's County, MD one of the two worst school systems in the state there are schools that are in danger of being taken over by the state.  There is one HS that consistently outperforms the state average in testing, GPA, SAT and whatever measures of school performance that can be applied.  One would think that the solution to the underperforming schools would be to replicate the successful school's methods throughout the county, however the solution under the last two superintendents has been to make proposals that would effectively gut the curriculum and faculty of the successful school.

Local control of that particular community's school would prevent these sort of shenanigans.

[migoi]

Grampster, you have my vote for King. Especially that part about getting the Federal Government out of our shorts. The No Child's Behind Left law is doing nothing to actually improve education for any child.

I would also vote for the limiting the size of high schools. One justification for large schools has been that with more students you can offer a wider variety of courses and have more depth to your curriculum. With the increases in technology you can now offer more high end classes even in smaller schools by using e-school type arrangements.

A side note on the theological discussion happening on this thread... Geology seems to be one of the subjects that often causes offense. It's difficult to convince your children that the world is only approximately 7000 years old if the teachers at school keep insisting there are rocks more than 7 million years old.

Next question. What are you doing personally to improve the schools in your area?

migoi

[RevDisk]

OK.  Suggestions.
 Eliminate Federal intrusion in the business of educating children.
All taxes used for education need to be equally distributed by the states to all public schools.
   Rich or poor, they get the same financial support.  The states should NOT mandate a curriculum beyond Reading (phonics), Math (rote memorization), English (comprehension, structure, spelling), History and Civics.  Leave all other curriculum decisions to the local school board.  
School Board members and members of their families may not be employed in any way by the school.  
School Board members should be held criminally and civilly liable for any mis-mal or non-feasance by Administrators.  
No more staggered elections for School Board members:  All up for election at the same time every 4 years.
Implementation of Life Skills, The Arts, and The Trades to start in middle school, continue into high school.  Not all kids need to go to college.  In fact, most college grads, unless they are in medicine or some of the other Arts, did not get much value from advanced education other than a networking ability.  High School grads with 7 years of Life Skills, Arts, or Trades come out of k-12 with a running start.  This says nothing about catching the attention of some kids early and instill in them a desire to learn, something our schools neglect today.  If a kid is not a natural high achiever he is written off early by most schools and "educators"  (There are exceptions...I know)
How's that for starters?  Do I have any votes for me being King?

Works for me, Gramps.   In an ideal system, I'd like to see study of the Constitution, BoR and DoI as being a manditory part of civics.  For some reason it isn't, besides the barest historical facts.  

Next question. What are you doing personally to improve the schools in your area?

Not having children.  

[roo_ster]

I laugh when I hear about "public school reform."  

It is just another way of saying, "Let's pour more money down that rabbit hole."

The government school monopoly will not see real reform.  We do not have the power to force it and they don't have to do it if they do not wish to.  It will not happen.

The only solution is to abolish the monopoly & let the market work its way through the problem.

[SteveS]

All taxes used for education need to be equally distributed by the states to all public schools.

What do you think is a fair way to distribute it?  I hear people all the time mention a per student pricing, but that unfairly favors the bigger schools.

As for my fixes:
NEA needs to be realigned.  A union is a good thing.  A union that won't allow bad teachers to be fired, and good, less senior  teachers to be promoted over leser, more senior teachers is not good (always seemed to be a complaint by my teachers)

Maybe a solution to my question to gramps answer, but set a size limit on schools.  No more high schools with 4000 kids, and no more with a hundred or so.  Big schools lead to overcrowding, little schools keep kids from areas of study that big schools can offer.

No more passing kids so they don't have to be held back.  They don't have the credits for graduiation, too bad for them.  Don't give them a D- just so they can leave.  And start this WAY before high school, I could have failed every grade up to 9th, and never been held back without my parents permission (which they would have given, had I tried this).

Some good ideas, but I wanted to comment on my experience.  I took and educational law class last year and it was taught by someone who is an attorney for MESSA (the company that provides health insurance for teachers).  He had also worked as an attorney for the MEA and had also worked the other side (several school districts).  His opinion was that, while procedures have to be folllowed, firing a bad teacher is not all that difficult.  The bad teacher must be given an opportunity to correct the problem and if they do not, they are fired.  

My wife is a teacher and has told me of several intstances where there was incompetance.  In each of those cases, the union indicated that they would support the teachers being fired, but the administration declined.

As to the seniority, I agree that needs to be changed.

[grampster]

One has to have the moxie to start attending school board meetings.  Our district was bound and determined to build a new high school.  The reason was "everybody else was building a new high school".
 
I'm serious, they do stupid things like trying to get millions of dollars to keep up with neighboring districts.  It is also amazing how they also want deluxe accomodations like terrazzo and brick because we need the best "for the children"

 When challenged they came up with bogus growth numbers, projecting the district would grow by several hundred students in 10 years and "we'll need the space".  Actually the district was losing kids.  We also pointed out that a private Christian school was teaching their kids in steel post and frame buildings and their SAT scores equaled the public school.  Point being that it is more important what goes on in a building rather than what a building was.  It needs to be lighed, warm (cool) and dry.  Beyond that temporary structures work fine because they can be altered easily and school boards tend to want to build new buildings after 20 or 30 years anyway, and post and frame buildings are guaranteed for 40.   The look of horror on administrators  and school groupies was very gratifying.

To make a long story short, a group of taxpayers got together and defeated a millage for the new high school three times; we wrote articles and sent newsletters around challenging their "facts" with our facts and actually hung them with the minutes and budgets that are public information.  In the process, got the superintendent fired and helped hire a new one, got them to reasonaby discuss our needs for buildings and maintenance as well as a curriculum that gave more weight to the Arts, the Trades, and Life Skills.  A curriculum such as this would keep kids interested in school starting in the 6th grade and hopefully keep them around till graduation.  They'd have 7 years of Arts and Trades and Life Skills which would serve them well if they chose not to go to college.  (imho college is overated) With a curriculum we proposed a kid could come out of high school very nearly a Journeyman Tradesman or have the ability to be multitalented in several areas and serve them well.  We need to tone this idea that kids have to go to college.  Education should be just that, preparation for life and life is multifacated.  

We wound up with a new middle school, a remodeled high school, cafetorium, two new gyms and remodled lower and upper elementary buildings, all for less money than originally wanted for a high school.  The curriculum has not been implemented properly as they "promised" but soon we'll start holding their feet to the fire.

If you do not get involved in your community public schools the schools will not meet the needs of your community.  It will wind up being a clique for a select few families, especially if you are not in a large city.

[Strings]

Rev Disk: I'd like to hear the story of what happened when you were in school. PM or email is fine, but I imagine others here would like to hear it too...

[RevDisk]

Email sent, Hunter.

[brimic]

I don't have too much good or bad to say about the Public high school I attended.

I went to a Catholic school through 8th grade. About 1/3 of the my freshman class went to grade school at the Local Catholic school, and another 1/3 went to the local Lutheran grade school. For the most part, freshman and sophomore reading, writing, science, and math classes were refresher courses for those who went to parochial schools while those that had attended public gradeschool struggled somewhat for the most part. There were a couple of good students that had attended public gradeschool, but most others were way behind those of us who went to the religeous schools. As a whole, most, not all, kids who graduated high school and had attended a parochial school ended up attending college or tech school, while about 1/2 of those who went to public school throughout their educaton went on for more education. I have a feeling that this was more of a product of the parenting than the quality of the schooling.

The teachers were very good, many of them came to teach at them came to teach at my particular school so that they could teach the classes they wanted to teach versus teaching at a much larger school district for quite a much larger salary with less freedom of what they could teach. My school was very small and my graduating class was one of the smallest with 33 students.

[Live Free Or Die]

That spamming SO did not work.  My desire to visit an online casino is now LESS than it was before I read that message.  

[Jamisjockey]

Without digging into all the posts:
I went to a public school that taught evolution, yet the head of biology was a fundamentalist evangelical christian, and held a before-school prayer group.  Of course, my Marine Biology teacher was a bleeding heart environmentalist....
But there wasn't any indocrination.  We just got an education.  This was eastern NC in the early ninties.