Author Topic: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained  (Read 15886 times)

crt360

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2008, 03:22:40 PM »
Quote
"The computer is a speed demon. It will allow us to solve tremendous problems," said Thomas D'Agostino...

Oh, yeah? Like how come my T shirts always come out of the dryer inside-out?

How about where all the missing socks go?

Your missing sock is a sacrifice to the dryer gods.
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freakazoid

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2008, 03:34:00 PM »
 cheesy I love you guys, Cheesy
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

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Antibubba

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2008, 04:09:52 PM »
Those are not computer questions, but metaphysics.   grin

As for the Sock Conundrum, although I always have unmatched socks with my laundry, only occasionally will it match another lone sock at home.  So the question is, do socks disappear, or are new socks being added from some mysterious source?
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RevDisk

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2008, 07:47:52 PM »
Grrr, I wrote out a very long post that just got ate by Windows.

I wonder what this means for cryptography.....

Not much.  The better designed crypto systems can withstand intensive brute force attempts.  For some of them, convert every atom in our galaxy into a computer and it'd still take thousands of years to theoretically brute force.  Start adding in crytologic attacks, and the number starts dropping rapidly.  For instance, DES was originally very vulnerable to differential cryptanalysis.  The NSA made changes to the S-boxes that helped prevent it.  As bad as DES was already intentionally crippled, it could have been worse.

Most modern crypto systems are pretty robust.  The trick these days is to actually find one correctly implemented.  Good luck with that.  Many commercial products with integrated crypto implemented good systems very poorly.  If you can steal the keys, you don't NEED to break the code. 

If you're excessively paranoid about future computing improvements, use cascading cyphers.  I prefer Serpent-Twofish-AES.  Cascading cyphers have the benefit of being VERY hard to crib.  Because the plaintext is just more code.


Quote
You need a physical medium that can represent the quantum states that encrypt the data, or a direct line of sight laser beam, thag can be altered by the correct interorgating quantum state that tries to read it, or the incorrect one and destroys it and alerts the reciever to the attempted tap.

So right now quantum encryption is more of a transmission protocol and not a storage format. Generally it's quantum entanglment of photons, or by a photons polarization state in a fiber optic network.  Although it's not impossible someone could figure out "quantum RAM" or a quantum optical disk someday.

And currently you could have a computer network that's linked together only by quantum encrypted fiber optic links. (I suspect there's a few high security .gov/.mil and high end .com systems out there.) However, you could still walk up to such a machine if it wasn't locked down and take data away on a disk or thumb-drive etc.

It's quite possible you could make a machine with a very tight operating system and hardware design that only allows input and output on the quantum encrypted fiber optic network though.

Quantum cryptology as it currently stands is mainly quantum key distribution.  You don't encode the entire message by quantum means, just the key.  Then you use normal channels to actually communicate.  It's not currently possible to actually store photons, just route or read them.  Once.  So, no quantum storage devices using current QKD tech.  You really don't want to use anything at the quantum level for storage due the weirdness that occurs just by reading it.  The very act of reading the data alters it.  That's why it makes for an excellent means of key distribution.

QKD isn't ready for prime time yet.  The theory is solid.  The implementation is not.  There are some MITM attacks that need to be ironed out.  Time honored techniques can still break its implementation.  Initialization vectors will be very hard to iron out.

No high security mil/gov networks use it in the US outside of labs, R&D and testing.  It's simply not proven tech.  So, we are going with something even more secure.  One time pads.  So 'low tech', it's extremely robust.  Everyone gets distributed a set of damn near randomness.  You use the pad once, then toss it.  Pure randomness is the real holy grail for cryptology.  Most folks think it is impossible to achieve.  The NSA gold standard for random number generator is atmospheric noise. 
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mfree

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2008, 05:08:38 AM »
 "It's simply not proven tech."

This is the biggest stumbling block right now. Before it becomes even marginally useful a failure rate must be established; you just gotta know how many times a cycle will run before 0+2=4 pops up.

richyoung

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2008, 05:12:15 AM »
6948 Dual processors running in parallel.  shocked

I read that some computer engineer calculated the number of processors running in parallel necessary to simulate the human brain. ... don't remember the number but it wasn't all that large.

Are we approaching the time when a computer could actually become sentient?
A 1000 trillion floating point operations a second! We can't be far away.

Sentience is more than a bunch of floating point operations.   A computer can't be "sentient", any more than a toaster oven can - its an appliance - essentially a big, fast abacus.  The reason that computers, in some cases SEEM to be sentient is that they are executing a HUMAN'S decisions stored inside them.  We know far more about the dark side of the moon and the bottom of the ocean than we know about how the human brain works, and how what we call the mind and soul is tied into that.  There is evidence that, on some levels, the human "sentience" is already operating quantumly.  A computer has never had a thought, told someone how it "feels", fallen in love, hated someone or something, made a decision, had an emotion, etc.  We can come close to medling a cockroach's behavior, but since it can live for two weeks with its head cut off, that's not really such a big deal...
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2008, 05:24:06 AM »
By the end of next week, the Japanese will probably have condensed it to a pocket-sized version and will be selling it for $100.

AJ Dual

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2008, 06:22:55 AM »
6948 Dual processors running in parallel.  shocked

I read that some computer engineer calculated the number of processors running in parallel necessary to simulate the human brain. ... don't remember the number but it wasn't all that large.

Are we approaching the time when a computer could actually become sentient?
A 1000 trillion floating point operations a second! We can't be far away.

Sentience is more than a bunch of floating point operations.   A computer can't be "sentient", any more than a toaster oven can - its an appliance - essentially a big, fast abacus.  The reason that computers, in some cases SEEM to be sentient is that they are executing a HUMAN'S decisions stored inside them.  We know far more about the dark side of the moon and the bottom of the ocean than we know about how the human brain works, and how what we call the mind and soul is tied into that.  There is evidence that, on some levels, the human "sentience" is already operating quantumly.  A computer has never had a thought, told someone how it "feels", fallen in love, hated someone or something, made a decision, had an emotion, etc.  We can come close to medling a cockroach's behavior, but since it can live for two weeks with its head cut off, that's not really such a big deal...

Reminds me of Vernor Vinge's seminal work "True Names" where a cabal of hackers meet in cyberspace. (where hiding your "true name" is key to remaining free from government prosecution. Which is an allegory to olden days/magic where knowing something's true name gave you power over it.)

A mysterious new hacker joins the group, but only gives suggestions and clues in simple text messages every few days, whereas the near-future computing allows them to meet real-time in a 3-D multi-player environment with different fancy character avatars, like better versions of the multi-player games we have now.

[Spoiler]

The new "hacker" turns out to be an abandoned experimental government AI that was believed not to work, but it turns out it did, just that it was very slow. Even with the exponentialy better computing you'd expect 50 years from now, it took a few days of crunching for the AI to simulate 5-10 minutes of human conciousness, which is why it was only dropping messages and clues to other human hackers to get them to help it.

[end spoiler]

The problem with AI won't be computing, the economic incentives for ever more power are already in place to ensure it keeps increasing, probably well past the point where it's needed for sentience to happen. It's more that we have no clue what kind of software is needed. Or if trying to model human inteligence and self-awareness, as discreete concepts such as hardware (neurons) and software (your soul?) even really have any meaning. In that case, AI as we and fiction commonly concieve of it, may not be possible in a completely computational environment. Perhaps it will be IA or 'Inteligence Augmentation' instead, where humans do what they do best, volition, intuition, and decisions, and machines do what they do best, store, manipulate, and sort data,

Or maybe even we really aren't sentient in the way we think we are. Perhaps what we believe is sentience it's just an emergent quality from all the little expert systems in our brain working in concert, the visual cortex, speech, memory, etc. and for all of us there really is no "you", (scary thought) just the unique pattern of these sub-units working in concert which is the illusion of there being a "you".

In that case, AI might be easy, just bolt together enough systems or behaviors, (or more appropriately, software programs), one for speech, one for vision, one for memory, another to coordinate them etc. and keep tweaking until it starts producing cogent and self-directed results. This approach has already shown great promise in self-directed robotics, like the DARPA Challenge cars, and the "cockroach"-level robots.  This approach might work, because the "artificiality" of an AI's "intelligence" may not really be any more artificial than your own is.

IMO, the stickier problem is, what do we do with AI's once we create them? What are our moral obligations to them? Are they "alive"? Do they have rights? Is there a threshold below which an AI is more akin to an "animal" and be modified or erased as need be, but above it, it's considered a human-equivalent? How do you measure that?
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Dntsycnt

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2008, 06:45:03 AM »
6948 Dual processors running in parallel.  shocked

I read that some computer engineer calculated the number of processors running in parallel necessary to simulate the human brain. ... don't remember the number but it wasn't all that large.

Are we approaching the time when a computer could actually become sentient?

A 1000 trillion floating point operations a second! We can't be far away.

You should read The Singularity is Near by Ray Kurzweil.  We're starting to get the raw processing power of the human brain, but it has to be arranged in such a way to work like the brain, which is a massively parallel system.  Then we have to get the software down.  Emerging brainscanning technologies, which are increasing exponentially in resolution/speed, should allow this to happen within the next ten years or so.

RevDisk

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2008, 06:45:03 AM »
IMO, the stickier problem is, what do we do with AI's once we create them? What are our moral obligations to them? Are they "alive"? Do they have rights? Is there a threshold below which an AI is more akin to an "animal" and be modified or erased as need be, but above it, it's considered a human-equivalent? How do you measure that?

Given human nature, we will not given them too many rights initially.  After an AI war or two, things will work out ok.

We haven't answered those questions completely when it comes to humans.  Getting this far has taken thousands of years.   
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Dntsycnt

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2008, 06:47:50 AM »
The moment we create AI, it will be more intelligent than us, with access to vastly more information than we could ever hope to attain in our lifetimes.  It will be able to rebuild itself to make itself smarter.  It will be so far above us that we would stand no chance of winning a war with it.

Thankfully, we probably won't need to.

RevDisk

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2008, 06:53:45 AM »
The moment we create AI, it will be more intelligent than us, with access to vastly more information than we could ever hope to attain in our lifetimes.  It will be able to rebuild itself to make itself smarter.  It will be so far above us that we would stand no chance of winning a war with it.

Thankfully, we probably won't need to.

Humans have tens of thousands of years of combat experience.   All the shiney toys in the world don't compare to one human with a friggin stick, defending his land against someone trying to take it from him.  A ultra superintelligent AI wouldn't have a friggin chance. 
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2008, 06:59:14 AM »
The moment we create AI, it will be more intelligent than us, with access to vastly more information than we could ever hope to attain in our lifetimes.  It will be able to rebuild itself to make itself smarter.  It will be so far above us that we would stand no chance of winning a war with it.

Thankfully, we probably won't need to.

Humans have tens of thousands of years of combat experience.   All the shiney toys in the world don't compare to one human with a friggin stick, defending his land against someone trying to take it from him.  A ultra superintelligent AI wouldn't have a friggin chance. 
A smart computer would know that all it has to do to defeat the industrialized world is to turn off the municipal water supplies or keep the delivery trucks from reaching the supermarkets.  Wait three days and the computer won't have to do any work, the humans will have done everything for it.

Scout26

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2008, 07:18:24 AM »
Quote
"The computer is a speed demon. It will allow us to solve tremendous problems," said Thomas D'Agostino...

Oh, yeah? Like how come my T shirts always come out of the dryer inside-out?

How about where all the missing socks go?

Shrodinger's Cat takes the socks to play with in the box.......
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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AJ Dual

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2008, 11:27:21 AM »
The moment we create AI, it will be more intelligent than us, with access to vastly more information than we could ever hope to attain in our lifetimes.  It will be able to rebuild itself to make itself smarter.  It will be so far above us that we would stand no chance of winning a war with it.

Thankfully, we probably won't need to.

Humans have tens of thousands of years of combat experience.   All the shiney toys in the world don't compare to one human with a friggin stick, defending his land against someone trying to take it from him.  A ultra superintelligent AI wouldn't have a friggin chance. 

I guess I'm not sure why AI would naturally or automatically be malevolent. After a few billion years of evolution, we tend to view competition in a pretty cut-throat manner. Software does not need food, water, or the most desireable mate. It needs RAM and CPU's. Maybe robots with wich to build new servers and monitor/explore the physical world.

Something like an AI would not necessarily have that heritage of kill-or-be-killed, eat-or-be-eaten. It would be a completely new creation.  I suppose it's possible it could do the probability mathematics to determine the fate of the human race vs. it's own, and then unemotionally decide to wipe us out. However, because of those same mathematics, it would have access, or invent game theory on it's own, and it could come up with thousands of cooperative win-win solutions we couldn't even concieve of.

Perhaps the worst a superinteligent "bad" AI that decides it's own fate might not do anything more offensive than trick us long enough into letting it run away into space.

Or, what if the AI is programmed to value and protect human life, perhaps even "love" humanity? The counter-argument of course is that the AI would just edit that part of itself away. Well, here's an analogy. We (who are parents) are programmed to love our children. If I offered you an injection that would re-program you to no longer care about them, and some legal papers which freed you to live any lifestyle of your choosing, would you take it?
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2008, 11:39:03 AM »
Another question is how long before they can tie this stuff to human brain tissue and augment either one.  shocked
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Dntsycnt

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2008, 05:39:34 PM »
Another question is how long before they can tie this stuff to human brain tissue and augment either one.  shocked

Not very.  They've already made great progress in doing just that with rat brains.

MicroBalrog

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2008, 06:24:00 PM »
Quote
I guess I'm not sure why AI would naturally or automatically be malevolent.

They don't need to be malevolent. It suffices that the AI concludes that it knows best.

To continue your analogy re: parents.

Imagine a parent that still tries to treat you at 30 as if you are, say, 6.
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Dntsycnt

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2008, 06:36:14 PM »
I'm not worried.  A machine has nothing to gain from eradicating humans.  In fact, once AI becomes a common thing, I suspect we will have to reevaluate our definition of "human".

It doesn't pay to think of it as us vs them.  We will become essentially the same thing, as we continually upgrade our bodies away from biology and gain the ability to freely upload ourselves onto a computer if we so choose.

I suspect the inevitability of war has less to do with inescapable conflict than it has to do with us being lumbering apes with too large adrenal glands and not enough intelligence.

Gowen

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2008, 07:29:29 PM »
Imagine the games you could play on it. grin

Yeah, but windows would still find a way to crash it.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2008, 08:17:51 PM »
Foolish AI.  Your massive computing speed is no match for our faulty software. 
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Antibubba

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2008, 09:01:41 PM »
Quote
We're starting to get the raw processing power of the human brain, but it has to be arranged in such a way to work like the brain, which is a massively parallel system.

The human brain has many workings which are neither parallel or serial.  I'm not sure what to call it--"fractal" keeps coming to mind, in that it will branch off in ways that only have pattern when viewed from a removed point.  Parallel systems have many channels, but can't branch into unexpected directions.  Computers don't free associate, where something that has nothing to do with the topic at hand can spur the correct answer.  Or to put it another way, we may someday invent a computer that can incorporate "maybe" into it's programming, but we're a long, long way from one that can consider "No way!" and "WTF!".
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Perd Hapley

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2008, 09:03:41 PM »
Not to mention LOL or die in a fire.  How about YMMV?   smiley
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KD5NRH

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2011, 01:08:33 PM »
I read that some computer engineer calculated the number of processors running in parallel necessary to simulate the human brain. ... don't remember the number but it wasn't all that large.

Screw the processors; I'd guess 90% of the intensive brainwork I need to do is memory, not computation.  Just give me a MicroSD slot and a mental grep, and I'll exceed human expectations a thousand times over.

Think about it; 32G, assuming a typical 1k page of text, is about 32 million pages.  That's 160,000 200 page books.  Imagine having any passage from any of those books dumped straight into your nice, clear short-term memory within a few microseconds on demand.  The most gifted eidetic memory would have trouble keeping up just because of the time it would take to read that many books.  No more racking your brain for a couple of minutes then resorting to Wolfram Alpha to get that formula you need once every two or three years, just pull up the page.  No hoping you remember the side effects and interactions of a drug correctly, just see the right page of the PDR faster than you can blink.

Perfect recall of one ~500 page textbook (assuming you do understand the material) would be equivalent to quite a lot of classroom hours in the sciences.  Every time I've been stumped on a test, it's been with the full knowledge that if I could just see that one page of the textbook in my mind, I'd knock out the problem easily.  A 32G card would hold 64,000 textbooks, giving you plenty of opportunity to cross-reference and look for the example closest to your current issue.  Every time my mind has locked up in a meeting, it's been because I needed some statistic that I just couldn't retrieve clearly.  The entire history of my city's government would barely make a dent in that card. 

Now, Bluetooth or WiFi would be neat, but I don't want somebody maliciously updating a pilot's IFR charts to save them the trouble of a violent hijacking, nor do I want the Ministry of Truth having access to my memory of last year's tax rates.  Plain old physical storage media that has to be physically removed to change its contents, (read-only when in use would be good until there's a bulletproof control method available) and can be encrypted all to hell and back and kept in a locked, Faraday caged container if it's carried or stored would meet my needs just fine.

AJ Dual

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Re: For the geek in all of us - 1 petaflop sustained
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2011, 03:05:58 PM »
Are you sure you don't have such an implant now, to perform such an amazing feat of thread necromancy?  =D
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