Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement

[yesitsloaded]

I didn't issue them, I was just responsible for taking them off the line, making sure they were clear and running before handing them to the next guy, and cleaning before storage. I understand they will run dirty when wet, but I was the only one with CLP. The malfing gun got lubed until it worked and passed a function check twice.

[Mabs2]

My uncle has about 5 ARs and he/we shoot them quite a bit.  One's an AR10 and another is a 9mm.  The only failures I've ever seen have either been this one .223 mag he had that caused the bolt to lock back randomly (and very perfectly so, just like it was empty), and one reload in his .308 that...acted weird.  It was a really catastrophic ammo failure, can't quite remember what happened but the case was jammed in there pretty good, we managed to clear it in the field and keep shooting, surprisingly.

[yesitsloaded]

Oh and I missed expert by two shots. Darn it.

[De Selby]

The AR platform is the easiest rifle to shoot accurately I've ever come across.  It points well, the sights are good, and the thing is just plain...accurate. 

I think if they're lucky, the best thing the .gov folks will get out of a new project to replace the M16 series guns is...something that is nearly as good as the M16.

You need to shoot more rifles, then.

And "accurate at 300 yards" means less when someone is fighting someone right there, when the thing jams up because talcum powder sand is blowing.

 I suppose I could cite my own experiences with other rifles here and you yours, but one man's experience doesn't amount to much in the real world.

From the testing available, well, it's weird-for so many stories of complete unreliability in the sand and uselessness at close in fighting, it seems that every testing procedure you put the rifle through manages to rate the weapon as one of the most reliable in the world.  You'd think all the testing would reveal function problems as compared to other designs.

The fact that this system is chosen by special forces teams, other than the USofA's own, and by units that have a choice would seem to indicate that the available scientific data on the weapon's reliability is somewhat more accurate than the various internet screeds about the perils of the M16.

An early study of the M16 that I found, rating it on par with the M14 in reliability:  http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=AD838604&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

[yesitsloaded]

Many forces use them only due to NATO standards or the fact that our government gives them away like candy. They run great when heavily lubed, which in my opinion isn't a good thing to have as a requirement. If I had to go into combat right now and had to chose between any gun I own (which includes several battle rifles including a few piston guns) or an m16a4 I would go with the M16. Because that is what my buddies would have and we could share mags and ammo and trade weapons with ease. SHTF and I'm grabbing my SKS with 20 rounders. That of course is just IMHO.

[Perd Hapley]

standard ammo, blanks, or training rounds (if ya'll even use those...)? 

What means "training round"? 

And FWIW, I'd be real surprised to hear of U.S. military (or ROTC) using .22 conversion kits. 

[Manedwolf]

standard ammo, blanks, or training rounds (if ya'll even use those...)? 

What means "training round"? 

And FWIW, I'd be real surprised to hear of U.S. military (or ROTC) using .22 conversion kits. 

I don't even know what that is, either. I've only bought, seen and used XM193 or M855, frangible (indoor) and tracers.

[Boomhauer]

Some ROTC units use a .22LR conversion kit to save on ammo. An ROTC unit at a college near mine apparently uses .22LR kits.

The training round I am referring to is M862 Short Range Training Ammunition, which must be used with the M2 training bolt.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m862.htm

The 5.56mm SRTA provides a realistic restricted range training alternative to M193/M855 service rounds. The 5.56mm SRTA has a maximum range of 250 meters; an effective range of 25 meters (trajectory match and round to round dispersion comparable to the service ammunition) and provides a functional capability when used in the M16A2 Rifle with the M2 Training Bolt.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Well, shucks, you learn somethin' new everday. 

[freedom lover]

Does anybody have ANY idea why more hasn't been done to create modern blowback operated rifles? They certainly sound like they're reliable enough. Maybe because of the inability to switch calibers like an AR? I guess they lack precision accuracy and modularity. But I think that reliability is more important in an MBR.

I guess I'm just ranting. But, I'd like to know the information and opinions of the members of this site.

[yesitsloaded]

If your a company with a giant military contract, and you already have the tooling and design for your product down, what incentive do you have to design a better product when it is cheaper to keep making the same old? You don't have to worry about a civilian engineer (like me) making a better design in his home shop because of the NFA laws. Not just guns either. There is a guy in Canada that came  up with a pretty decent armor system that he developed after making a bear proof suit and he was ridiculed because he was just a backyard inventor. Kinda cheesy in his presentation, but it worked. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPS2l5fQ55A

[yesitsloaded]

Background on the guy is he was a metalworker that was attacked by a grizzly in 1986 and then went on to invent a bear-proof suit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3CzYw5-qdA&feature=related

[roo_ster]

The "wet as possible" AR15 requirements run smack into the sand & duct problem currently encountered by our troops.

[macpherson]

The "wet as possible" AR15 requirements run smack into the sand & duct problem currently encountered by our troops.

It seems that the requirements for having a weapon that needs heavy lube is a bad situation in desert or dusty environments, and it also would be a severe problem in protracted engagements where soldiers may not have time or supplies to keep their weapons heavily lubed.  Reliability should be the first and foremost requirement for an infantry rifle, which is not to say that cleaning should be ignored, but it should not be the "clean weapon 3-5 times daily or as often as possible" regimen that the AR seems to require now.  For the ranges that most combat happens at in modern times, we'd be better off with a weapon that is accurate to 300m and a DMR/Sniper type weapon for anything longer.  In that case, the inherent accuracy of the direct impingement system the AR uses isn't really necessary and should be removed for a more reliable system (i.e gas piston, blowback).

[Balog]

The "wet as possible" AR15 requirements run smack into the sand & duct problem currently encountered by our troops.

Yep. And when the system is annoying and difficult to clean thoroughly like the AR.....


As for the "Well spec ops folks choose it and they're LEET lol pwned" mentality....... special forces are a very bad yardstick. They have very different and specialized requirements, and what works for them may not work well for general issue.

[Gewehr98]

Does anybody have ANY idea why more hasn't been done to create modern blowback operated rifles? They certainly sound like they're reliable enough. Maybe because of the inability to switch calibers like an AR? I guess they lack precision accuracy and modularity. But I think that reliability is more important in an MBR.

Blowback in which variation? 

Pure blowback - hell no.  The chamber pressures are too high for anything other than pistol-caliber cartridges or rimfires, and even the .45 ACP blowback guns have a huge bolt bouncing back and forth to provide enough mass to contain it all.

Roller-locked delayed blowback, ala' the HK and CETME?  They work, keeping the bolt closed until peak chamber pressure has passed, but require fluting of the chambers to keep the spent brass extracting properly.  Not a big deal for the military, but I reload all of my brass and absolutely hate running fluted brass through my resizing dies. People who own HK roller-locked rifles love them, but HK doesn't reciprocate with the warm fuzzies. 

The FAMAS uses lever-delayed blowback, and still operates on the pressure of the cartridge pushing against the bolt face.  Again, a fluted chamber ensures reliable extraction of fired brass.  Works for the French, which is good considering their other rifles never saw much action in two World Wars. 

Me?  I want a Colt Potato Digger, even a semi-auto repro in .30 U.S. Government (known lately as .30-40 Krag) will do.  Barring that, I have two of John Moses Browning's recoil-operated rifles, the Remington Model 8 and Model 81, which while while more complex than the AR-15/M16, don't poop where they eat, and I can run cast boolits all day long without fouling the non-existent gas ports. 

[MillCreek]

I have used every type of lube imaginable, going from WD-40 (especially good when you have a dirty gun), 3 in 1 oil, suntan lotion, butter to Vagisil- dont laugh, it works. I may not want to use any of them for the long haul, but for a quick fix it beats having a non functioning gun.

On the upside, my AR no longer complains of itching since I started lubing it with Vagisil. 

[seeker_two]

I have used every type of lube imaginable, going from WD-40 (especially good when you have a dirty gun), 3 in 1 oil, suntan lotion, butter to Vagisil- dont laugh, it works. I may not want to use any of them for the long haul, but for a quick fix it beats having a non functioning gun.

On the upside, my AR no longer complains of itching since I started lubing it with Vagisil. 

Oh....the things I could say before Mike's ban stick strikes me dead..... 

[Perd Hapley]

I have used every type of lube imaginable, going from WD-40 (especially good when you have a dirty gun), 3 in 1 oil, suntan lotion, butter to Vagisil- dont laugh, it works.

Oh, you know I'm gonna laugh.  Ain't sayin' it don't work, but that right there is funny.   

[Gewehr98]

Oh, it's funny as hell.

I've considered trying KY as a cast bullet lube once upon a time...

[Crosshair]

Oh, it's funny as hell.

I've considered trying KY as a cast bullet lube once upon a time...

Try Johnsons Paste Wax and Lee Alox, then tumble lube

[Matthew Carberry]

Oh, it's funny as hell.

I've considered trying KY as a cast bullet lube once upon a time...

Try Johnsons Paste Wax and Lee Alox, then tumble lube

As a replacement for KY?  I don't know if I could talk the ladies into that.

[Intune]

What means "training round"?

And FWIW, I'd be real surprised to hear of U.S. military (or ROTC) using .22 conversion kits.

We used 'em (.22 LR's) with our M60's during training.  We would pull up to a miniature tableau of a town (think Matchbox-sized cars) and mount an M16 alongside our main gun.  We would attach a solenoid actuator to the trigger.  I never checked out the bolt but I remember that the mags had an insert and someone had to sit outside the turret to cycle the action by hand.  We even had moving tanks & trucks.   "ON THE WAY!"       pop           It was great training & was fun!

We also used an M2 .50 on a bigger range attached the same way.  We would bust belts to arrange pure tracer ammo to mimic main gun rounds.

Not to get too political on this thread but one of the differences in the Carter and Reagan admins (for soldiers) was that all of a sudden we went from this type of training to full-sized, fire belching, mile-per-sec darts and Grafenwoehr dust!

 I hate to say it but we actually got tired of shooting.  Yep, I said it.  Pallet after pallet of  ammo, .45, .50, 105, etc.  Could you imagine getting tired of shooting a grease gun?  We did.  It was the mag loading part that was a royal drag.

Alright, enough old Treadhead reminiscing.  Back to pills & lubricants...

[Perd Hapley]

  I don't know if I could talk the ladies into that.

I doubt that's the part you're having trouble talking them into. 

[Gewehr98]

We had M16 .22LR conversions during boot camp in 1986.  The rifle next to me on the left had a slamfire, and burned the cornea of the left-handed shooter using it.  No fun...