Author Topic: Defending the Iraq war.  (Read 15892 times)

glockfan.45

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Defending the Iraq war.
« on: January 27, 2007, 03:46:10 PM »
This thread was created to continue a closed debate on THR http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3059088#post3059088

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Give Hanoi Jane My best
I suppose that was meant to be an insult. However if by that you mean I dont blindly accept wars based on false pretenses then you are indeed correct. At what point did I say I supported or even respected what insurgents in Iraq are doing? When you have only to result to petty insults you have admitted defeat.

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glockfan
you are missing the whole point....no one thinks Iran is a threat and no one(in the USA) thought germany was a threat in WW2(or japan)..and the launching of satellites into space means that they(IRAN) have the rocket motor technology to launch a nuclear weapon into our country..ICBM's (intercontinental ballistic missiles)These missiles fly outside the atmosphere...re-enter and hit their target. Best wishes to you...hope you figure it out sooner, rather than before it is too late.
I think the bigger threat is launching yet another unwinable war that will place more strain on our armed forces, create more enemies than we already have, drive our country futher into debt finacing an unjust war, and placing us at odds (more so than we are now) with the international community. But then again I guess that view point just makes me an unrational leftwing nut job.
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mfree

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2007, 03:52:38 PM »
If Iran starts WWIII... well, suddenly all these "unwinnable" wars will be over, quick.

All we've had to do... in Vietnam, in Somalia, Afghanistan, and in Iraq; All we've had to do to win and win fast outright is adopt a WWII fighting stance. Sacrifice from both sides. Total war will be made acceptable again.

We are very, very good at total war. We are middling otherwise, because our enemies will always push farther than we will.

glockfan.45

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2007, 03:57:14 PM »
The problem is with the motives of the war, our goal in Iraq was never to fight the fight and leave. The construction of permanent bases proves that. Occupation never works out for the occupiers in the long run.
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Ron

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2007, 04:30:23 PM »
This country doesn't have the backbone to protect its vital interests.

Iraq is a strategic outpost in a broader conflict.

We are FUBAR without ME oil.

There is no alternative source of fuel for our vehicles or oil for modern materials.

Public education, leftist ideology and the softness that comes from our decadent culture has blinded us to the reality of our situation.

We are dependent on the free flow of oil for our security.

We need a source other than SA. We need a source other than The Republic Of Chavez.

Saddam was a convenient excuse for us to put a presence in the ME to show we will not tolerate a disruption in our security by Fing with the free flow of oil.

China, India and Russia all need the same oil we do, we better make sure we are the ones getting the oil. 

glockfan.45

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2007, 04:50:01 PM »
Ron your argument is only partly correct. While this countrys backbone is up for debate on some issues I think its safe to say that most Americans do not support wars that only protect the interest of big corporations. There is plenty of oil in ANWAR, and across the Midwestern parts of the U.S to keep us in raw material for production as well as strategic defense. It wouldnt kill us to recycle rather than toss our bottles into landfills either. Alternative fuels exist however the multi-trillion dollar oil companies dont like to admit it. I wonder why Exxon Mobil, Shell, BP, etc would have a problem with that? The bulk of our oil imports goes to fuel vehicles, and heat our homes. There is no excuse to be heating your home with oil in this day and age. As for vehicles there are alternatives as well. Hybrids, hydrogen fuel cells, ethanol all could be substituited with a little more R&D. I wonder how far we could have progressed in those fields if we invested half the money into research of alternative fuels that we have blown in Iraq?
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The Rabbi

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2007, 04:53:12 PM »
If the thread was closed on THR what do you hope to accomplish by opening the same thing here?  It isn't like no one has thought to have a topic on this.
And for the record, anyone who doesn't support this war doesn't have a clue what's going on.
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glockfan.45

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2007, 04:58:56 PM »
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And for the record, anyone who doesn't support this war doesn't have a clue what's going on

What a blanket statement perhaps you would like to enlighten us with you wisdom. 
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Standing Wolf

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2007, 05:04:24 PM »
Land wars in Asia are never half so easily fought as generals think.

It should have been an Air Force mission, not an Army and Marine war.
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280plus

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2007, 05:07:40 PM »
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There is no excuse to be heating your home with oil in this day and age.
I'd like more elaboration on this. What else do you have?

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2007, 05:11:22 PM »
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It should have been an Air Force mission, not an Army and Marine war.

We were going to go in and win hearts and minds. Years of progressive whining made us think this was a better plan than destroying the enemy without mercy.

I bought into it myself. Not anymore.

280plus

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2007, 05:13:23 PM »
Unfortunately, if we don't "win the hearts and minds" we're never going to succeed there.
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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2007, 05:14:33 PM »
winning the hearts and minds of a people that still remember Alexander the Greats occupation is not an easy task.
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280plus

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2007, 05:21:25 PM »
Good point...

Well in that case then I'm still PO'd at England! Did ya see Prince Charles checking out the liberty bell?

I wonder if anybody said something like, "See that? Thats the bell we rung just before we kicked your British @$$es." Probably a good thing I wasn't there.  cheesy
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Kaylee

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2007, 05:25:21 PM »
1. You have called the Iraq war "illegal." Kindly state the law that was broken.

2. To pretend "we went in because of lies about WMD" is nonsense, and a lie. 

Yes, some of the urgency of action was based on fears that Saddam had continued a WMD program... fears he intentionally encouraged, by the way (prolly to keep Iran off his neck).  But the recent "Bush lied, people died" nonsense is a gross distortion of recent history.

While the WMD argument was the one that got all the press, it was hardly the only or even major reason for renewing hostilities in Iraq. If you will remember Saddam signed a peace treaty after Desert Storm. Among the many breaches of that treaty was the repeated firing on US aircraft enforcing the no-fly zone to keep him from butchering (more of) the Kurds in the north.

More importantly, kindly refer back to the "Axis of Evil" speech in full. The actions of the Bush administration were from the beginning an attempt to establish an ideological beachhead in the Middle East, in the belief that the people of the region seeing this example would continue agitating for a free society over one ruled by fundamentalist Islam.

Whether that is true or not remains to be seen.

Nonetheless, that was the primary intention in renewing hostilities in Iraq, and in our remaining there while a new political order was being established. Why Iraq, and not a more fundamentalist regime like Iran or Saudi? Well, because Saudi was(is) nominally an ally despite their Wahaabist leanings, and unfortunately the flow of oil from them was too strategically important to disrupt. Iran for all their nuttiness didn't have the many many violations stacked up against 'em that Iraq did.. both UN resolutions and violations of the peace treaty.

So.. off to Iraq we went.

Bush's state of the union for all it's nonsense did summarize events there quite well. The new government was starting to work - elections, constitution, so forth and so on - while not perfect, things were generally improving.. until those gains made were largely wiped out in the last year by a combination of Sunni and Shiaa violence. What he wasn't as clear on was the extent to which external powers were aiding said movements. (Iran and Syria.. the very same players that the ISG recommended "negotiating with" in order to "provide stability" in Iraq.. an option patently absurd as they're the ones formenting and fuelling much of said chaos.).  I believe the Bush adminstration was not more open about this aspect because they know the obvious implication is that in order to stop said violence, taking the war up to Iran is almost certainly necessary.

And thanks to the continued misrepresentations about Iraq, that would be so politically unpopular now as to be virtually impossible.



Yes, the very notion of the "ideological beachead" may prove unrealistic and unwinnable. Signs of hope are the Iraq elections and the democracy agitators in Iran. Signs of failure are the election of Hamas by the Palestinians, Israel's quick retreat from Hizbollah due to international political pressure, and the assassinations in Lebanon.

Nonetheless, I continue to believe that it was and remains the least bloody of available alternatives. If it fails, the result will be broader conflict between us and the Caliphate many there are agitating for, and the result will be deaths not in the thousands or tens of thousands, but in the millions.

Presently, it looks to me like that last hope for a comparatively bloodless conflict is being lost.

Lost by those with a financial interest in its failure (Russia, China, Kofi), those with a political interest in making Bush look bad (the DNC),  and worst of all trying to recapture their youth by pretending it's 1968 again (Jane Fonda, Cindy Sheehan, et. al.)

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glockfan.45

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2007, 05:26:40 PM »
280plus there are too many other options regarding heating your home. When oil is as expensive as it is and people keep burning it for warmth I dont pity them when they whine about the cost. Propane, natural gas, electric, wood, corn, etc.
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Standing Wolf

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2007, 05:37:26 PM »
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Unfortunately, if we don't "win the hearts and minds" we're never going to succeed there.

I don't care about their hearts and minds. All I want them to do is fear to attack our nation.
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glockfan.45

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2007, 06:08:43 PM »
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To pretend "we went in because of lies about WMD" is nonsense, and a lie
There were WMDs in Iraq, the ones we gave him. Yet another example of our foreign policy gone wild. I seem to recall Colin Powell showing pictures of "mobile WMD labs" to congress in an attempt to get their permision to go to war. Those mobile labs turned out to be nothing more the water filtration units. Maybe we should get our facts straight before we go trotting off to war. As far as Sadam shooting at our aircraft it is still not a good enough reason for an invasion. Either a nation is sovereign or it isnt. If they are a sovereign nation they have a right to defend their airspace.

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The actions of the Bush administration were from the beginning an attempt to establish an ideological beachhead in the Middle East, in the belief that the people of the region seeing this example would continue agitating for a free society over one ruled by fundamentalist Islam.

I thought that beachead was Israel, people in the Middle East dont seem to be clamoring for democracy after 60 years of watching them. The very notion of spreading democracy by force is somewhat of a contradiction.

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I believe the Bush adminstration was not more open about this aspect because they know the obvious implication is that in order to stop said violence, taking the war up to Iran is almost certainly necessary. And thanks to the continued misrepresentations about Iraq, that would be so politically unpopular now as to be virtually impossible.

I hope your right about that we have built up enough federal deficit and anti-american sentiment to last us all a lifetime. In the end we have only created more enemies than we started with and I feel no safer for it.

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Nonetheless, I continue to believe that it was and remains the least bloody of available alternatives. If it fails, the result will be broader conflict between us and the Caliphate many there are agitating for, and the result will be deaths not in the thousands or tens of thousands, but in the millions.

Organization is key in order for them to build up a formidable threat to us and our way of life. As it is now they are unable to organize and see past the petty fighting that has engulfed their culture for centuries. Sectarian violence in Iraq has proven that much. I find this last statement to be nothing more than over dramatic fearmongering in order to further the goals of globalist. Too bad so many people buy into and repeat it so willingly. It all falls back to cutting our dependence on oil. Do that and in 20 years nobody will be paying any attention to the middle east.
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RevDisk

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2007, 06:30:38 PM »
If Iran starts WWIII... well, suddenly all these "unwinnable" wars will be over, quick.

All we've had to do... in Vietnam, in Somalia, Afghanistan, and in Iraq; All we've had to do to win and win fast outright is adopt a WWII fighting stance. Sacrifice from both sides. Total war will be made acceptable again.

We are very, very good at total war. We are middling otherwise, because our enemies will always push farther than we will.

I sincerely hope you mean WWII mentality, as opposed to WWII strategy and tactics.  Fighting a guerrila/insurgent war by convential means is a Really Bad Idea.  WWII mentality, according to more than few military historians, didn't do us many favors in Vietnam.  Unconventionial warfare assets did the best work.  Conventional forces did have their uses against the NVA, not so well against the VC. 

In my opinion as a former grunt, too many brass thought they could win a new war by using the same means as the last.  Remembering history is very useful.  Ignoring the current reality because of "Back in my day..." is a good way to get grunts dead. 


My dictionary describes 'total war' as "an unqualified, all-out war conducted without scruple or limitation."   Unless you're thinking of effectively depopulating your 'enemy' as a means of victory, total war is a bad idea.  The real question would be, are you willing to commit genocide to win?  To win what, exactly?  Even implementing 'total war' is not an instant option for success.  I recommend reading "Ghost Wars" by Steve Coll, specifically the section on the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.  If you'd like, I could check my bookshelf for other excellent books on that war.


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Unfortunately, if we don't "win the hearts and minds" we're never going to succeed there.


As importantly, knowing your enemy, as well as your friends.  If you cannot seperate the two, you cannot win.  One problem is having folks understand the local culture.  It isn't easy, but ignoring it is a very unwise choice.






2. To pretend "we went in because of lies about WMD" is nonsense, and a lie. 

Yes, some of the urgency of action was based on fears that Saddam had continued a WMD program... fears he intentionally encouraged, by the way (prolly to keep Iran off his neck).  But the recent "Bush lied, people died" nonsense is a gross distortion of recent history.

You are correct.  Saddam used chemical weapons against Iran during the Iraq-Iran War, and used the empty threat of them as a chip to keep Iran in check.   I imagine it's a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".  The first Gulf War destroyed his conventional forces, and everyone knew it.  He had no conventional forces that could possibly launched another war, nor defend an invasion.  Without the threat of chemical warfares Iran could and probably would have launched another war at some point.  With the threat of chemical warfare, he got invaded by the US. 

Well...  Seeing as how President Bush's claims turned out to be exaggerated, there are a couple possibilities.  My person guess is he used what he could to get the results he wanted.  Unfortunately, reality didn't quite match up.  Most politicians have this problem, it's limited to the President.  Saying "Bush lied" is simplistic, but his claims were later not backed up by reality.  Iraq had no real WMD program and no real ties to Wahabbi terrorism.  Those were the two original justifications for the invasion.  Later, it shifted to bringing democracy.


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While the WMD argument was the one that got all the press, it was hardly the only or even major reason for renewing hostilities in Iraq. If you will remember Saddam signed a peace treaty after Desert Storm. Among the many breaches of that treaty was the repeated firing on US aircraft enforcing the no-fly zone to keep him from butchering (more of) the Kurds in the north.

The northern no-fly zone was set by President George Bush in April 1991 to protect cargo aircraft dropping supplies to Kurdish refugees on the Turkish border and later Operation Provide Comfort. The justification given were the terms of UNSCR 688, not the peace treaty.

Originally, we only attacked sites in responce to hostile behavior in the No Fly zones.  President Clinton changed this in late 1998 or early 1999 to include "missile sites, anti-aircraft sites, command and control sites, relay stations and some intelligence gathering sites."  (Publically acknowledged February 23, 1999 by the DoD.)

Interestingly, if we wanted to protect the Kurds from being butchered, why did we allow the Turkish Air Force into the northern no-fly zone to engage the PKK?  Or challenge the Turkish Army when they deployed circa 10k into Kurdistan around December 2000?


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More importantly, kindly refer back to the "Axis of Evil" speech in full. The actions of the Bush administration were from the beginning an attempt to establish an ideological beachhead in the Middle East, in the belief that the people of the region seeing this example would continue agitating for a free society over one ruled by fundamentalist Islam.

Whether that is true or not remains to be seen.


My counterinsurrgency instructor beat a phrase into my head.  "If an oppressed people do not rise up and take freedom for themselves, they do not deserve freedom, nor will they keep it."  It was his opinion based off a decade plus of US involvement in various nation building and regime changes.  I think I agree with him.  Helping people is one thing.  Doing the job for them is another.




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Bush's state of the union for all it's nonsense did summarize events there quite well. The new government was starting to work - elections, constitution, so forth and so on - while not perfect, things were generally improving.. until those gains made were largely wiped out in the last year by a combination of Sunni and Shiaa violence. What he wasn't as clear on was the extent to which external powers were aiding said movements. (Iran and Syria.. the very same players that the ISG recommended "negotiating with" in order to "provide stability" in Iraq.. an option patently absurd as they're the ones formenting and fuelling much of said chaos.).  I believe the Bush adminstration was not more open about this aspect because they know the obvious implication is that in order to stop said violence, taking the war up to Iran is almost certainly necessary.

And thanks to the continued misrepresentations about Iraq, that would be so politically unpopular now as to be virtually impossible.


I got out of the Army not that long ago.   Not "virtually impossible", completely impossible from a military POV.  Not without significant changes in force structure (ie, more people) and logistics (more stuff).  When I heard talking heads on the TV discussing the good idea of declaring war on Syria and/or Iran, I wondered what Army they thought would do the job.  Because we certainly don't have enough grunts and stuff to do it.

I spent the last six months of my time in the Army gutting warehouses, bases, National Guard armories, etc for material to be sent to Iraq.  We're depleting our material reserves much quicker than said material is being produced.  Last I heard, we publically acknowledged being 40k short on tactical radios.  We're as short or shorter on a lot of other key materials.  The cost of this war is currently in the trillions.  Folks don't seem to be counting the cost of replacement equipment, or refurb/maintaince of current equipment.

Iran is larger than Iraq, in terms of geography and population.  Their military is in much better shape, and they have much more experience than Iraq did in preparing for an invasion.  If you think they haven't been observing the US invasion of Iraq and taking notes, you're seriously mistaken. 

We could have tanks in Tehran within 48 hours, 96 at the most.  We couldn't hold it with what we have currently.


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Perd Hapley

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2007, 07:03:49 PM »
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1. You have called the Iraq war "illegal." Kindly state the law that was broken.


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The Rabbi

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2007, 11:52:28 PM »
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1. You have called the Iraq war "illegal." Kindly state the law that was broken.


Who will answer the question? 

I'm still waiting for an answer to my original question:

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If the thread was closed on THR what do you hope to accomplish by opening the same thing here?  It isn't like no one has thought to have a topic on this.
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glockfan.45

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2007, 02:23:18 AM »
I fail to see where anyone called it illegal  undecided , unjust but not illegal. Just because the powers that be may have acted within the law to bring their wet dream to fruitation doesnt make it right however. Rabbi if the topic disturbs you so much feel free to ignore the thread  rolleyes  , nobody is forcing you to read it.
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280plus

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2007, 02:37:11 AM »
280plus there are too many other options regarding heating your home. When oil is as expensive as it is and people keep burning it for warmth I dont pity them when they whine about the cost. Propane, natural gas, electric, wood, corn, etc.
Yes, but unfortunately, oil is the most cost efficient of all the ways to heat for the average income type American.

I've said it a few times now but I'll say it again. We didn't NEED WMD or any other excuse to go in there. After GWI Saddam had an obligation to let inspectors in there and cooperate with them to ensure no WMD were being developed. The VERY FIRST TIME he blocked the actions of the inspectors we should have roared in there. Far as I'm concerned we were a day late and a dollar short by the time we actually DID go in.
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glockfan.45

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2007, 03:12:31 AM »
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Yes, but unfortunately, oil is the most cost efficient of all the ways to heat for the average income type American

It may have been at one time but not in todays world. Theres a reason oil furnaces are no longer implemented in the constrution of new homes and commercial buildings, that reason is cost.

Trying to prevent nations from developing nuclear weapons is like trying to plug six holes in a boat with five fingers (perhaps not the best analogy but it conveys my point). We cannot prevent research and development on the global scale forever. With the end of the cold war scientist and material from the former Soviet Union flooded the global market all for sale to the highest bidder. Its not a very good precident to set by allowing and aiding nations like Israel and India to develope nukes while trying to prevent others from doing likewise. The world will catch up to us and our best bet to maintain our security is not to wage war, after war, after way but to build a defense from such threats. The technology now exists to blast satellites from orbit with the push of a button. Surely by now we could have come up with a defense system to shield us from nuclear missiles. Remember every time you fill up your SUV at the pump, every time you turn up the thermostat to your oil furnace you have likely sent more money into weapons programs for your enemy. Our end goal shouldnt be trying to hold back the world or maintain a strangle hold on the worlds oil reserves, we should be focused on staying ahead and liberating ourselves from them.
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280plus

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2007, 04:24:27 AM »
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Theres a reason oil furnaces are no longer implemented in the constrution of new homes and commercial buildings
I'm a heating contractor you know, I'm afraid I'm not seeing this trend, here in the northeast anyway. The most cost efficient conventional heating appliance I can install right now is an oil fired boiler.
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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2007, 05:51:14 AM »
I don't have an issue with the war, but I am concerned with how we are handling the occupation.  I heard a snippet over the radio (news break) that the military was changing it's policy on Iranians caught in Iraq from "catch and release" to "capture or kill" or something close to that.  WTF?  Were we just capturing Iranians in Iraq and just letting them go across the border?  That sounds like the stupidist, most idoitic, bullshit political decision I have ever heard in my life.  Screw Iran. 
The problem for me is that I don't know what the rules of engagement or other rules are that govern our occupation.  I am half afraid that we have been tying the hands of our commanders and troops.  I know we have allowed the JAG to go nuts prosecuting people, which was already bothering me. 
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