Author Topic: Defending the Iraq war.  (Read 15893 times)

The Rabbi

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2007, 05:53:42 AM »
I fail to see where anyone called it illegal  undecided , unjust but not illegal. Just because the powers that be may have acted within the law to bring their wet dream to fruitation doesnt make it right however. Rabbi if the topic disturbs you so much feel free to ignore the thread  rolleyes  , nobody is forcing you to read it.

You still haven't answered my question.

The reasons for the war are numerous and have been stated, cogently and forecefully, many many times before.  Anyone who isn't persuaded by them won't be persuaded by anything and will simply continue to chant the mantras of "Bush lied, people died," "no blood for oil," "get us out of Iraq now" "end unjust wars of occupation" etc etc ad nauseam.  That is their prerogative.
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Ezekiel

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2007, 06:46:47 AM »
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The reasons for the war are numerous and have been stated, cogently and forecefully, many many times before.

Which -- of course -- makes them no closer to being correct, rational, intelligent or less than Imperialist.

I find this "non-binding" Resolution harmful, however.
Zeke

The Rabbi

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2007, 07:23:54 AM »
Quote
The reasons for the war are numerous and have been stated, cogently and forecefully, many many times before.

Which -- of course -- makes them no closer to being correct, rational, intelligent or less than Imperialist.

I find this "non-binding" Resolution harmful, however.

You need to quote the full text of my post:
Quote
Anyone who isn't persuaded by them won't be persuaded by anything and will simply continue to chant the mantras of "Bush lied, people died," "no blood for oil," "get us out of Iraq now" "end unjust wars of occupation" etc etc ad nauseam.  That is their prerogative.
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Kaylee

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2007, 08:31:06 AM »
RevDisk, 280 Plus - thank you both for supplying your resepective professional insights. Certainly that's comething we need a heck of a lot more of.

1. Absolutely we should pursue other means of energy to remove ourselves from foreign supply. That is the lynchpin I think, for with that we not only provide independence for ourselves, we also sharply reduce the amount petrodollars that go to fund (for instance) Wahaabist madrasses.

That said, the idea had been given nothing but lip service by every sitting president since the 70's. What attempts we've made have been either not cost-effective, or made not cost-effective by well-timed OPEC reductions in the price of oil.  Personally, I'd be happy to stick with $2.50-$3.00 gas in the short term if it meant we were finally building coal-to-oil plants and nuke plants.  However, that's not the view of the average consumer of the country, and so long as the product can be delivered cheaper than domestic alternatives, the 30-plus year old trend of foreign dependence will continue.

2.
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I find this "non-binding" Resolution harmful, however.
Absolutely it is. There's few things more unconscienable than saying "okay, I'm going to keep you in a situation I believe to be suicidally dangerous and pointless, but I'm going to publically say that your sacrifice is in vain."
gah.

3. "Catch and Release" RoE... see above about the trickiness of engaging Iran.
If we publically admit that they're formenting acts of war against us, we find ourselves in the position of actually having to address the problem - and nothing short of military force will be effective. As already mentioned, both the political reality and the ensuing logistical problems make this (next to) impossible. So our RoEs were crafted to avoid public acknowledgment of the obvious.
*Sigh*

3. This "Imperialist" crap. This one keeps coming up to.
What precisely do you mean by this? Obviously we're not building an empire, as practiced by Rome or Britain. We have troops in Germany, in Japan, in South Korea.. all over the world from previous engagements of the last century. But we don't have an empire. We can't order Germany to act in such-and-such a way. Japan was kicking our collective butt economically twenty years ago and we didn't have our military squeeze 'em. Last I heard, South Korea wasn't sending us tribute.

So... where oh where is this "Empire" we are allegedly building?

4. Building missile protective systems vs. military strikes on states.
First, let's get one thing straight. When it comes to states like Iran (or previously, Iraq when Israel took out their facilities) we're not talking about rational actors.
When President Ahme-demie-whatsist says he's looking for "peaceful nuclear power" while simultaneously building secret armored nuke plants, developing long range missile platforms, and telling his own people repeatedly that he's going to wipe Israel off the map, that the Infidel will "burn in the fires of our hatred" etc... that's not the same thing as the Frogs building a few warheads. When he has nuclear weapons, we can be reasonably certain he will use them as soon as they're available.

Secondly, a missile is not the only way to deliver a warhead. While an effective anti-missile system is a good idea presently, it is not suficient unless you're prepared to see several cities in Europe and Israel hit.




Bogie

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2007, 09:16:54 AM »
I'd rather fight it there, than fight it here.
 
Remember all the brand-new patriots right after 9/11?
 
They're now the folks who are wearing "Out of Iraq NOW!!" buttons... And you know what?
 
After one of these nutjobs manages to orchestrate a nuke into the Hudson or off LA or even in Chicago or Boston, they're gonna be asking why didn't Bush do enough, and demanding Arab heads on stakes.
 
But it'll be too late for a lot of folks here. OUR folks. I may not particularly like Boston-Washington or southern California, but those are at least MY dumbshits, and they provide excellent bad examples for the rest of the country. If we didn't have them, life would be duller.
 
The culture over there does not respect negotiation. It does not respect live/let live compromise. It respects raw and brutal force. When that happens, they back down and deal with it.
 
I'm guessing that Kha... Qad... whatever the heck his name is in Libya starts rattling sabers again after a Democrat gets in. I'm also guessing that he got "sudden religion" a few years back when we went through Afghanistan faster than Patton went through Europe, which was probably accompanied by a phone call that said "You're next, now behave."
 
Now Iran thinks that the Great Satan is weak, and therefore an easy target. These folks don't think "weak, therefore ignore." They envy us, so they hate us. Their leaders are also scared of our freedoms.
 
Of course, if you're respective of muslim property rights, well, maybe that's your sick and twisted fantasy...
 

 
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wmenorr67

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2007, 10:22:30 AM »
Did anyone notice that Hanoi Jane is at it again.  She spoke at an anti-war rally in Washington D.C.  Waiting for her to turn up in Iraq kissing al-Sadr's ass or Tehran looking at the nuclear refining facility to confirm it is being used for electricity.
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RevDisk

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2007, 11:10:21 AM »
RevDisk, 280 Plus - thank you both for supplying your resepective professional insights. Certainly that's comething we need a heck of a lot more of.

Thank you for the kind words and open mind.

Quote
1. Absolutely we should pursue other means of energy to remove ourselves from foreign supply. That is the lynchpin I think, for with that we not only provide independence for ourselves, we also sharply reduce the amount petrodollars that go to fund (for instance) Wahaabist madrasses.

That said, the idea had been given nothing but lip service by every sitting president since the 70's. What attempts we've made have been either not cost-effective, or made not cost-effective by well-timed OPEC reductions in the price of oil.  Personally, I'd be happy to stick with $2.50-$3.00 gas in the short term if it meant we were finally building coal-to-oil plants and nuke plants.  However, that's not the view of the average consumer of the country, and so long as the product can be delivered cheaper than domestic alternatives, the 30-plus year old trend of foreign dependence will continue.


It is not cost-effective to replace internal combustion engines powered by gasoline.  It's not only the price of gas at the pump, but the entire infrastructure.   One major reason for our cheap gas is a very extensive pipeline infrastructure that allows oil to be moved around cheaply and effectively.   All auto manufactures are geared towards producing gasoline powered vehicles.  Replacing all of that R&D, tools, employee skills, etc would cost tens of billions at a minimum.  Hell, the cost of replacing gas pumps at every gas station across the US. 

It all adds up.  75 years of construction, infrastructure, research, marketting, everything.  It won't go away until there is no other option but than to use something else.


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2.
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I find this "non-binding" Resolution harmful, however.
Absolutely it is. There's few things more unconscienable than saying "okay, I'm going to keep you in a situation I believe to be suicidally dangerous and pointless, but I'm going to publically say that your sacrifice is in vain."
gah.


You think many folks don't know that politicians are thinking that, even if they don't admit it?  Most of my experience was in 'peacekeeping' missions.  99% of it was purely worthless, because after we leave, they'll go back to the situation that existed before we arrived.


Quote
3. "Catch and Release" RoE... see above about the trickiness of engaging Iran.
If we publically admit that they're formenting acts of war against us, we find ourselves in the position of actually having to address the problem - and nothing short of military force will be effective. As already mentioned, both the political reality and the ensuing logistical problems make this (next to) impossible. So our RoEs were crafted to avoid public acknowledgment of the obvious.
*Sigh*

Sucks, doesn't it?   Some problems do not have any positive outcome, just degrees of "suck" associated to the negative outcomes.  Then again, there is a much sharper difference between bad and worse then between good and better. 

Keep in mind, Iran has somewhat of an 'moral' obligation to support Shia groups in Iraq.  Not saying I agree.  Just saying, that's what they believe.  Iran is the only major *expletive deleted*it nation in the area.  They see it as a duty to assist any other 'oppressed' Shia group nearby.  There is no way to make Iran to ignore their fellow Shia in Iraq.   We can negotate the type of aide.  Or decrease arm shipments to symbolic levels.

Here's a worst case thought for ya.  Imagine if Iran cut a deal with the Kurds.   The Kurds are the only real friends we have in that neck of the woods.  We've alternated between helping them out and screwing them over so many times it's not funny.   If Iran cut a deal to allow Iranian Kurdistan self-autonomy, or even possibly independence (long shot), in exchange for their support against the Sunni...  We'd be screwed, completely. 

It is not in our best interests to piss off Iran, at this point.  We don't have the resources to take significant military action against them, and they could relatively cheaply cause us a lot of headaches.  


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3. This "Imperialist" crap. This one keeps coming up to.
What precisely do you mean by this? Obviously we're not building an empire, as practiced by Rome or Britain. We have troops in Germany, in Japan, in South Korea.. all over the world from previous engagements of the last century. But we don't have an empire. We can't order Germany to act in such-and-such a way. Japan was kicking our collective butt economically twenty years ago and we didn't have our military squeeze 'em. Last I heard, South Korea wasn't sending us tribute.

So... where oh where is this "Empire" we are allegedly building?

The term prefered by the Imperialists is "empire of influence".   An excellent book is "The Grand Chessboard", by Zbigniew Brzezinski.  "Battle Ready" by General Zinni is one of the best books on modern warfare I've read in years.  The last chapter in the book discusses America's "empire of influence".  (A bit off topic, but it is also the best book on US's involvement in Somalia I've read.)  I have not read his latest book yet, "The Battle for Peace: A Frontline Vision of America's Power and Purpose", but it's been highly recommended to me by various folks.

The basic idea is that instead of old fashion conquest, we co-opt the govts so that they follow our guidance. 



Quote
4. Building missile protective systems vs. military strikes on states.
First, let's get one thing straight. When it comes to states like Iran (or previously, Iraq when Israel took out their facilities) we're not talking about rational actors.
When President Ahme-demie-whatsist says he's looking for "peaceful nuclear power" while simultaneously building secret armored nuke plants, developing long range missile platforms, and telling his own people repeatedly that he's going to wipe Israel off the map, that the Infidel will "burn in the fires of our hatred" etc... that's not the same thing as the Frogs building a few warheads. When he has nuclear weapons, we can be reasonably certain he will use them as soon as they're available.

Secondly, a missile is not the only way to deliver a warhead. While an effective anti-missile system is a good idea presently, it is not suficient unless you're prepared to see several cities in Europe and Israel hit.



Ahmadinejad.  Mind you, he was elected.   More interestingly, he is not the most powerful politician in Iran.  Most folks apparently do not know this, but Supreme Leader of Iran is actually the highest position.  You'd think with a title like that, most folks would know it.   Murtaza Janmohammad is the head of the military and out-ranks President Ahmadinejad.  President Ahmadinejad gets all the attention, but he does not have the final say.

Rahbare Moazzam Janmohammad (his full honoric title, in Farsi) has made it expressly clear that building nuclear weapons are forbidden.  The military listens to him, not the President.  If the President attempts to overrule the Supreme Leader, he is guilty of treason.  Plus some various religious "not good" sentiments.  Be pretty much like trying to overthrow the Pope within the Vatican.  Treason, plus according to the indigenious beliefs, God would be angry at you too.

President Ahmadinejad is a politician.  Keep that in mind.  Politicians will say whatever they think will get them votes.  Janmohammad is the guy to be watching.  


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The culture over there does not respect negotiation. It does not respect live/let live compromise. It respects raw and brutal force. When that happens, they back down and deal with it.

Uh...   Which culture?   Kurdish?  Arab?  Persian?  Druze?  Sunni?  *expletive deleted*it?  Mind sharing with us your extensive experience with the various local cultures in and around the Middle East and/or other Muslim countries?

I would seriously pay you a lot of money to try that to a Bedouin in person.   laugh

Edit: I'd sign over my entire 401k for you to say that to a Berber's (Imazighen) face, provided you survived longer than 15 seconds. 

Seriously though.  Different folks react differently.  Some you could intimidate with force.  Others, would fight to the last man, woman or child.  Ask any Russian soldier that served in Afghanistan for the distinction.  Or heck, read Kipling's poem "The Young British Soldier" for the British perspective.

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glockfan.45

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2007, 11:17:00 AM »
280 I do freelance work as a contractor for a local home electronics company, it has been a side job for me for the last 4 or 5 years. Most of this work involves installing home theater/security systems in new construction. My observations in that time are that very few if any new homes are built with oil furnaces. Most new construction is natural gas, electric, or propane. Perhaps your area differs but around here very few people still heat with oil. In the end a cheaper system would be to supplement a conventional furnace with either solar or geothermal. While the cost of these systems is a little higher up front the end savings more than make up for it. As for me I heat with electric and in the winter time my electric bill runs around $130-$150 a month. Certianly not breaking the bank by most peoples means. The point is we can get away from oil there are alternatives. Kaylee makes a good point where he/she (?) claims that most people are reluctant to accept any temporary inconvience in doing so. Sadly that way of thinking will keep us at the mercy of third world dictators for some time to come unless .gov steps up and makes it happen. However if you look at the vested interest of those in power now to the oil companies and who makes some big campaign donations I dont see that happening soon.

Rabbi I started this thread at the request of another poster on THR whom I was ingaged in debate with prior to the thread being locked. That other poster never showed up however and of course posters on APS joined in. I now repeat my invitation for you to ignore the thread if it bothers you so. Nobody is making you read it and nobody is making you post here.

Kaylee makes some good points however I find myself at a philosophical difference with most of them. While it is certian a terrorist attack via nuke will likely not involve a missile the issue can still be avoided with enhanced border security. I honestly feel the reason that our borders are so porous at the moment is that Bush and those in power frankly dont give a damn about the security of this country and only care about advancing their pocketbooks and political careers. I feel the most logical step in providing security for this country is not by invading country X today while pretending to befriend country Y one day, then ignore country X the next day and invade country Y while sending arms to country Z. Contrary to what you have heard they dont hate us over there for our freedoms. They hate us because of our terrible foreign policy and constant medling in their affairs. You dont provide for your security by making enemies.

Bogie I dont see how you can possibly relate 9/11 to Iraq aside from the fact that anti-muslim sentiment in this country after 9/11 made Bush think he could pull off Iraq with little opposition. As stated before I will wonder why Bush didnt do more in the event of another terror attack. By doing more I mean securing the borders not waging yet more war that will create yet more terroist. Perhaps you need to be reminded of where Al-Quidea came from in the first place.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2007, 11:39:53 AM »
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Trying to prevent nations from developing nuclear weapons is like trying to plug six holes in a boat with five fingers (perhaps not the best analogy but it conveys my point). We cannot prevent research and development on the global scale forever. With the end of the cold war scientist and material from the former Soviet Union flooded the global market all for sale to the highest bidder.

Oh, really?

I just retired from a certain government agency whose sole purpose was to monitor and track nuclear weapons and technology, ferreting out the proliferators and potential proliferators.  That's the first I've heard that there's a flood of former Soviet nuclear weapons materiel out there - perhaps you're working for the wrong guys, or need to call somebody in the Beltline and tell them they're going at it all wrong, you've got something conclusive to show them.   rolleyes

As for the war, I just returned from Baghdad in December 2005.  What nobody talks about, or even shows in the media, is all the native Iraqis who walk up to you and sincerely thank you for giving them their freedom.  It just ain't newsworthy, and never will be.

My sentiments still are "You take the fight to the enemy".  You don't have to be a scholar of Sun Tzu to figure that one out.  By the time the enemy has brought the fight to your own soil, you're toast, or close to it, and will have to expend an exponentially larger number of men and machines to mitigate the threat than had you taken care of it offshore.

That's assuming, of course, that the American people even have the stomach for war anymore, and I seriously doubt we do.  I'll even say we deserve an ass-kicking every now and then, just to remind us it ain't all Kum-Ba-Yah around the campfire out there.  We as a nation are considerably more "pussified" than we were in WWII or even the Korean War days.  Hell, look how fast conspiracy theorists surfaced after 11 September 2001, saying it was a scheme engineered by the  Bush Administration to create some sort of national hysteria.  Can you imagine somebody coming up with a similar hairball scheme to explain what happened at Pearl Harbor on 7 December, 1941?   
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2007, 12:41:10 PM »
We cannot develop alternatives fast enough, hence we need oil and will need oil for quite some time. Hence, the oil must flow. The oil is mostly in ME. Therefore, we need to have a strong presence in ME. Iraq is a nice central place from which we can and should project power until we build more fission plants and eventually develop positive-output fusion.

Everything else is kumbaya pipe dreams and psychological luxuries we can afford less and less. Liberalism/leftism is one such luxury. Fundamentalist religion is another. Selfish partisanship at the expense of national interests is a third. But, the biggest ones are naivity and weakness.

wmenorr67

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2007, 12:46:55 PM »
 
Quote
As for the war, I just returned from Baghdad in December 2006.  What nobody talks about, or even shows in the media, is all the native Iraqis who walk up to you and sincerely thank you for giving them their freedom.  It just ain't newsworthy, and never will be.

Currently over here in Baghdad and I will concur with Gewehr on this.  The other thing to think about is that what is the easiest group to change.  Children.  The children are the answer and the children will make a difference in about 5-10 years.  This is going to take a generation or two to completely "fix."  Does that mean that we will have 100,000+ troop levels for that amount of time?  I hope not, but you can bet that we will see a fixed rate of around 20,000 for several years.
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Kaylee

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2007, 12:47:41 PM »
1.
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Ahmadinejad.  Mind you, he was elected.   More interestingly, he is not the most powerful politician in Iran.
Yes, I'm aware of that. (I can even pronouce his name finally, just not spell it worth beans. Smiley )

Anyhow.. actions, not words.

If the Supreme Leader says it's forbidden to build nuclear weapons, and at the same time Iran is building hardened secret nuclear facilities ... who's lying? The one who says the Supreme Leader is in charge, or the Supreme Leader when he says it's forbidden? Personally, I think the latter, under a somewhat stretched interpretation of al-Taqiyya.  But to each their own.

Regardless -
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It is not in our best interests to piss off Iran, at this point.  We don't have the resources to take significant military action against them, and they could relatively cheaply cause us a lot of headaches.
As you said.. many degrees of suckitude.
Unchecked, I believe Iran will build a nuke and will use it.
Certainly their actions and their words to their own people (not the kissyface interviews on 60 minutes) bear this out.
Least painful I think is drop a few "bunkerbuster" tacnukes onto Arak, Bushehr, etc and pray it stops there... not that that's particularly likely.  The fallout for us would still be nightmarish... but not as nightmarish as the alternative.


2.
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It is not cost-effective to replace internal combustion engines powered by gasoline. 
Quite true - which is one of the benefits of building coal-to-oil plants. It would allow us to use much of the existing infrastructure.  Not profitable under $2.50/gallon or so last I heard though.  Alternately shale extraction plants, though I don't recall the break-even point on that. Point is, last time we tried it (late 70's I think?) OPEC precipitously dropped the price of oil and bankrupted the builders.

Long term I'd love to see functioning nuclear fusion plants and hydrogen cell tech, but that's a ways off. The other stuff is already off-the-shelf tech, just not cost effective.

(and I cringe everytime someone mentions ethanol. I remember driving across the corn states where gas/ethanol blends was all there was on tap. Just as expensive at the pump, and my milage dropped by a third. Feh.)

3. 
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Contrary to what you have heard they dont hate us over there for our freedoms. They hate us because of our terrible foreign policy and constant medling in their affairs. You dont provide for your security by making enemies.
That's what I believed until I started doing some research. Different folk dislike us for different reasons of course, but the hard-core Jihadis absolutely "hate us for our freedoms." I know it sounds like a cheesy speech soundbite, and I cringe every time I hear it to... but as silly as it sounds to us - it's still very true.

Look up Qutb's book "Milestones" which was written by a hardcore fundamentalist Muslim man visiting American in the late 40's. His writings were the foundation of the Muslim Brotherhood, which itself was foundation of many later militant Islamic organizations.

The though process is basically that the law of man (as evidenced in free elections, among other things) is a sin, and only the law of God (as practiced through sharia law interpreted by Imams) is a tolerable foundation for a people. Further, it advocates the violent spread of the faith until all the world is under one Caliphate.

Yes, it sounds nutty. It IS nutty. Completely irrational. 
That doesn't mean they won't do a hell of a lot of damage in the trying though.

4.
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The term prefered by the Imperialists is "empire of influence". ...
The basic idea is that instead of old fashion conquest, we co-opt the govts so that they follow our guidance. 

Except again, we don't co-opt the governments. Not in the long term certainly.

Again, we can ask Germany or Japan or S. Korea or Saudi to do somthing, but we can't make them. Given past history then, there's no reason to assume Iraq would be any different in twenty years. Hell, it took a year of chaos in Iraq for the US to say "hey... you know, you really should be cracking down on the *expletive deleted*it militias as much as the Sunnis." - and that happens before we remove the bulk of our forces from the country and there's still violence on the ground.

That is not the behavior of an imperialist.

5. Gehwer - thanks for pitching in your expertise, and thanks for your service. Smiley
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As for the war, I just returned from Baghdad in December 2006.  What nobody talks about, or even shows in the media, is all the native Iraqis who walk up to you and sincerely thank you for giving them their freedom.  It just ain't newsworthy, and never will be.
Wonderful to hear. Thanks for sharing some hope. Smiley

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My sentiments still are "You take the fight to the enemy".  You don't have to be a scholar of Sun Tzu to figure that one out.  By the time the enemy has brought the fight to your own soil, you're toast, or close to it, and will have to expend an exponentially larger number of men and machines to mitigate the threat than had you taken care of it offshore.
At this time, I agree. I don't believe we're talking conventional forces here though.

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That's assuming, of course, that the American people even have the stomach for war anymore, and I seriously doubt we do....
Unfortunately, I rather fear you're correct. At this point it'll take a hell of a lot bigger attack than 9/11 to wake up the bulk of the populace again, and to be honest when (not if) that does happen, the reaction won't be "well, I guess it's time to get serious" but rather "It's Bush's Fault!/It's the Democrat's Fault!" Sad

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PS =
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While it is certian a terrorist attack via nuke will likely not involve a missile the issue can still be avoided with enhanced border security. I honestly feel the reason that our borders are so porous at the moment is that Bush and those in power frankly dont give a damn about the security of this country and only care about advancing their pocketbooks and political careers.

There's too much border to be able to secure adequately against nuke material being brought it. Thousands of miles of land and coastline make it logistically impossible. 

The border issue is primarily then one of immigration and culture. To the reasons of failing on it, I agree completely.. although it's not just Bush and his people - ALL sides are guilty here. You were watching who sat on their hands in the "border enforcement" part of the State of the Union last week weren't you? You do remember who stopped the jobsite enforcement Reagan got as part of a compromise in '86 don't you? The corruption there is on ALL sides, to the detriment and frustration of the American people. If you want to debate this one further though, kindly start a new thread so as to keep this one somewhat on topic.

PPS - glockfan - I'm a chick. Smiley

280plus

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2007, 02:07:47 PM »
Did anyone notice that Hanoi Jane is at it again.  She spoke at an anti-war rally in Washington D.C.  Waiting for her to turn up in Iraq kissing al-Sadr's ass or Tehran looking at the nuclear refining facility to confirm it is being used for electricity.
I almost puked when I saw Ol' Hanoi was at it again. Then I also saw Sean penn, Susan Sarandon and a few others of that ilk that I can't recall right now. Rat bastards...  angry If the big nuke does go off I hope the hell it's over Hollywood.
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Ezekiel

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2007, 02:13:55 PM »
QUOTE: I find this "non-binding" Resolution harmful, however.

Absolutely it is. There's few things more unconscienable than saying "okay, I'm going to keep you in a situation I believe to be suicidally dangerous and pointless, but I'm going to publically say that your sacrifice is in vain."

Hey, the only reason it is harmful is that it is "non-binding."

Our government needs to put some reigns on ye olde executive branch and stop allowing them to knee-jerk emergency powers -- destroying our rights -- and invasions as a response to a global bloody-nose (9/11).
Zeke

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2007, 02:17:41 PM »

Our government needs to put some reigns on ye olde executive branch and stop allowing them to knee-jerk emergency powers -- destroying our rights -- and invasions as a response to a global bloody-nose (9/11).

So over 3,000 innocent U.S. citizens killed and billions of dollars in damage is merely a "global bloody nose"??  Perhaps you think that the Islamists have a legitimate beef, that maybe the U.S got what was coming to it because of our arrogant and imperialist tendencies?
Sheesh.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2007, 02:20:36 PM »
I fail to see where anyone called it illegal  undecided , unjust but not illegal.

Then just explain that part.  To whom is it unjust and why?   
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280plus

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2007, 02:21:15 PM »
Continuing on...

Thanks Kaylee, nice to see you here.

Glock, What state are you in? When I sit down and crunch the numbers oil always comes up the cheapest to use for heat when you talk conventional means of heating. I understand your points fully on the oil situation and agree with you BUT I wouldn't hang the blame too much on the .gov for the simple fact that I live in the Hartford area and every day there are thousands upon thousands of cars bumper to bumper going into the city with only the driver in the car. You want to cut gas and oil consumption? Try and change the mindset of these types of people and talk them into using mass transit. I'll be willing to bet most of them will pay all kinds of lip service to conserving energy but would laugh in your face should you suggest they take the bus to work. I, for one, see little chance for change in the mindset of the people on all this until the S DOES HTF.

I agree on all the nouveau post 911 patriots. Where did all those stupid little flags go, besides in the gutter? See, my little flags were on my vehicles WAY, meaning YEARS, before 911 and you know what? They're  STILL THERE!
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Ezekiel

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2007, 02:23:58 PM »
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So over 3,000 innocent U.S. citizens killed and billions of dollars in damage is merely a "global bloody nose"??

Grand scheme?  "You bet."  We knee-jerked and legislatively empowered an executive moron.

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Perhaps you think that the Islamists have a legitimate beef, that maybe the U.S got what was coming to it because of our arrogant and imperialist tendencies?

Are you trying the "chickens home to roost" argument?  It is a defendable position.

That said, it is evident that the United States is not entirely blameless in this equation.  Or, do you consider us the Shining Knight?
Zeke

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2007, 02:25:18 PM »
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(and I cringe everytime someone mentions ethanol. I remember driving across the corn states where gas/ethanol blends was all there was on tap. Just as expensive at the pump, and my milage dropped by a third. Feh.)

Heehee.  I just filled up my truck on E-85 today, it's still 10 cents a gallon cheaper than gasoline.  It's still cheaper per mile than gasoline in my dual-fuel S-10, and I enjoy the extra performance gain, even if I do lose some range per tankful. IMHO, ethanol here in Wisconsin is a success story - sorry about what's going on in the other states, and sorry Detroit saw fit to discontinue dual-fuel vehicles for the last few years, although they're making up for it in the 2008 model year vehicles. They're also building another distillery within a few miles of me, to the tune of 100 million gallons per year. We have another three plants in my part of the state that produce about the equivalent amount, and they're ramping up production for more.  Just going on that alone, there's 400 million gallons of 105 octane motor fuel that doesn't come from Jihadistan.  I'm way cool with that, the only problem being that we Americans are so affixed to our petroleum umbilical cords that I'm afraid the 400 million gallons of gasoline saved by our ethanol production won't create a net savings.  Rather, the gasoline surplus will be sucked up right quick by poseurs driving Hummers and "Tahoe-with-Codpiece" H2s (Thanks, Tam!), or soccer mommies who absolutely must have a Suburban or Excursion to transport their precious cargo back and forth to Chuck E. Cheese.  undecided   
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280plus

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2007, 02:31:54 PM »
+1 Mr Gewehr !

I was just keying back in to say how much I'd like to kick the crap outta Sean Penn and then use whats left of him to pummel the rest of his cronies.  grin

and then...

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I honestly feel the reason that our borders are so porous at the moment is that Bush and those in power frankly dont give a damn about the security of this country and only care about advancing their pocketbooks and political careers
remember, 911 was in 2001, it is now 2007 and we have yet to have even a minor Jihadist staged terrorist event take place here on our soil. I for one COMMEND the Pres and his administration for this achievement. Thjeir efforts, including the invasion of Iraq, have disorganized these terrorist factions, kept them that way and recently I heard from some sources I can't recall that they are demoralized and we pretty much have them on the ropes. Why? Because they all rushed to Iraq to join the fight and have been getting the snot beat out of them. Works for me.
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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2007, 02:36:51 PM »
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So over 3,000 innocent U.S. citizens killed and billions of dollars in damage is merely a "global bloody nose"??

Grand scheme?  "You bet."  We knee-jerked and legislatively empowered an executive moron.

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Perhaps you think that the Islamists have a legitimate beef, that maybe the U.S got what was coming to it because of our arrogant and imperialist tendencies?

Are you trying the "chickens home to roost" argument?  It is a defendable position.

That said, it is evident that the United States is not entirely blameless in this equation.  Or, do you consider us the Shining Knight?

It would take more intellectual masturbation than I am capable of to defend murder and terrorism.  Congrats.
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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2007, 02:55:51 PM »
Oh, really?

I just retired from a certain government agency whose sole purpose was to monitor and track nuclear weapons and technology, ferreting out the proliferators and potential proliferators.  That's the first I've heard that there's a flood of former Soviet nuclear weapons materiel out there - perhaps you're working for the wrong guys, or need to call somebody in the Beltline and tell them they're going at it all wrong, you've got something conclusive to show them.   rolleyes

Heh, how many times have you rolled your eyes at those "suitcase nuke" stories?  Try explaining to folks that nuclear weapons are fair complicated gizmos that are expensive and somewhat maintenance intensive. 

Nukes have a short life span. According to the GUMO, the lifespan of some of the components in Russian nukes is six months. The entire weapon itself could not have a hypothetical shelf life longer than 12 years, even with the best of maintaince. (The reality is Russian nukes have a much shorter shelf life. I'd personally guess 8 years at the most with the best of maintaince, but that's just my personal opinion.)

The Soviet Union fell apart much longer than 12 years.  And today's Russian maintaince programs are even more lax than during the USSR days.

As for the war, I just returned from Baghdad in December 2006.  What nobody talks about, or even shows in the media, is all the native Iraqis who walk up to you and sincerely thank you for giving them their freedom.  It just ain't newsworthy, and never will be.


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My sentiments still are "You take the fight to the enemy".  You don't have to be a scholar of Sun Tzu to figure that one out.  By the time the enemy has brought the fight to your own soil, you're toast, or close to it, and will have to expend an exponentially larger number of men and machines to mitigate the threat than had you taken care of it offshore.

Most folks just want to live their lives.  They want a decent job, enough food on the table, and enjoy life.  It's just a small minority that ruin it for everyone else.  Always has been, always will be.


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That's assuming, of course, that the American people even have the stomach for war anymore, and I seriously doubt we do.  I'll even say we deserve an ass-kicking every now and then, just to remind us it ain't all Kum-Ba-Yah around the campfire out there.  We as a nation are considerably more "pussified" than we were in WWII or even the Korean War days.  Hell, look how fast conspiracy theorists surfaced after 11 September 2001, saying it was a scheme engineered by the  Bush Administration to create some sort of national hysteria.  Can you imagine somebody coming up with a similar hairball scheme to explain what happened at Pearl Harbor on 7 December, 1941?   

Depends.  I personally have faith in the US.  If we feel it's justified, we can and will stomp anyone that opposes us.  Folks just disagree on justification.  If our country was invaded, say by China, they'd be slaughtered to the man. 

Me, I disagree with the Iraqi invasion because it used up resources that could be used to hunt down the folks that attacked us on 9/11.  The best course of action, in my humble opinion, would have used our resources to track down anyone even remotely associated with the branch of the Wahabbi sect that attacked us.  I think the best message to send would have been, "Those that attack us will be hunted down and slaughtered.  Those that leave the US alone will be left alone."


1.
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Ahmadinejad.  Mind you, he was elected.   More interestingly, he is not the most powerful politician in Iran.
Yes, I'm aware of that. (I can even pronouce his name finally, just not spell it worth beans. Smiley )

I assure you, I was not mocking your spelling ability, as my own sucks.  Rocks, glass houses, not good combo.  Thank the Gods for dictionaries and Google.   grin




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Anyhow.. actions, not words.

If the Supreme Leader says it's forbidden to build nuclear weapons, and at the same time Iran is building hardened secret nuclear facilities ... who's lying? The one who says the Supreme Leader is in charge, or the Supreme Leader when he says it's forbidden? Personally, I think the latter, under a somewhat stretched interpretation of al-Taqiyya.  But to each their own.


Indeed, it would be prudent to keep a eye on things.  I was just pointing out that Ahmadinejad gets all of the attention, but doesn't have as much power in Iran as most folks believe.  The Supreme Leader is the guy to be watching, carefully.  The problem is that under the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty, nuclear power is legal.  See http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/npt/text/npt2.htm for the full text of the NPT.

"Affirming the principle that the benefits of peaceful applications of nuclear technology, including any technological by-products which may be derived by nuclear-weapon States from the development of nuclear explosive devices, should be available for peaceful purposes to all Parties of the Treaty, whether nuclear-weapon or non-nuclear weapon States,

Convinced that, in furtherance of this principle, all Parties to the Treaty are entitled to participate in the fullest possible exchange of scientific information for, and to contribute alone or in cooperation with other States to, the further development of the applications of atomic energy for peaceful purposes,"

Not saying I trust Iran with advanced nuclear technology, I'm not insane.  But it'd be complicated to declare war on Iran for following the terms of the NPT, when they're allowing the IAEA to keep tabs on the state of their nuclear program.  As of Nov 2006, the CIA has not found any secret Iranian nuclear-weapons program running parallel to the civilian operations that Iran has declared to the International Atomic Energy Agency.  That could obviously change at any point, but at the moment, there it is.

Hardened facilities for working on nuclear technology again is not de facto proof that they're constructing nuclear weapons.  Nuclear technology SHOULD be placed in hardened facilities, as far as I'm concerned.  I grew up on a hill overlooking Three Mile Island. 

Again, I am not saying Iran isn't a cause of concern.  I'm just saying that their nuclear program as of yet does not justify military action on the part of the US.  We definitely need to keep an eye on them and expand our options on how to deal with them should the need arraise.


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Regardless -
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It is not in our best interests to piss off Iran, at this point.  We don't have the resources to take significant military action against them, and they could relatively cheaply cause us a lot of headaches.
As you said.. many degrees of suckitude.
Unchecked, I believe Iran will build a nuke and will use it.
Certainly their actions and their words to their own people (not the kissyface interviews on 60 minutes) bear this out.
Least painful I think is drop a few "bunkerbuster" tacnukes onto Arak, Bushehr, etc and pray it stops there... not that that's particularly likely.  The fallout for us would still be nightmarish... but not as nightmarish as the alternative.

No offense, Kaylee, but first strike usage of nuclear weapons is something that should be thought of long and hard.  We've never had a first strike policy, and I pray we never will.  Going down that road is a nightmare.  Tac nukes are still nuclear weapons, and dispite claims that deep penetrating nuclear weapons don't release surface radiation, I don't have such blind faith.  As I previously said, I grew up a stone's throw from TMI.  The reactor that had problems is still there, and no one is going to be touching it for a very, very long time.

Build?  Perhaps.  Use?  No one has used nuclear weapons in anger since WWII.  Things have gotten hairy, many times.  Pakistan and India both have nuclear weapon, and dispite much hatred, have not used them in anger.



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Quite true - which is one of the benefits of building coal-to-oil plants. It would allow us to use much of the existing infrastructure.  Not profitable under $2.50/gallon or so last I heard though.  Alternately shale extraction plants, though I don't recall the break-even point on that. Point is, last time we tried it (late 70's I think?) OPEC precipitously dropped the price of oil and bankrupted the builders.

Long term I'd love to see functioning nuclear fusion plants and hydrogen cell tech, but that's a ways off. The other stuff is already off-the-shelf tech, just not cost effective.

(and I cringe everytime someone mentions ethanol. I remember driving across the corn states where gas/ethanol blends was all there was on tap. Just as expensive at the pump, and my milage dropped by a third. Feh.)

Shale oil would be nice, and is a possibility as the technology gets refined.  I'm iffy on hydrogen tech, current technology doesn't paint it in a pretty light.  Hydrogen is not easy to work with.  We do need more nuclear power plants.  They're the best source of power we currently have.  Coal plants produce much more radiation into the atmo than nuclear plants.

Straight ethanol would be better than the blends.  I don't see it happening.  The blends wouldn't be so bad if cars were specifically designed for it, and there wasn't price gouging.




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3. 
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Contrary to what you have heard they dont hate us over there for our freedoms. They hate us because of our terrible foreign policy and constant medling in their affairs. You dont provide for your security by making enemies.
That's what I believed until I started doing some research. Different folk dislike us for different reasons of course, but the hard-core Jihadis absolutely "hate us for our freedoms." I know it sounds like a cheesy speech soundbite, and I cringe every time I hear it to... but as silly as it sounds to us - it's still very true.

Look up Qutb's book "Milestones" which was written by a hardcore fundamentalist Muslim man visiting American in the late 40's. His writings were the foundation of the Muslim Brotherhood, which itself was foundation of many later militant Islamic organizations.

The though process is basically that the law of man (as evidenced in free elections, among other things) is a sin, and only the law of God (as practiced through sharia law interpreted by Imams) is a tolerable foundation for a people. Further, it advocates the violent spread of the faith until all the world is under one Caliphate.

Yes, it sounds nutty. It IS nutty. Completely irrational. 
That doesn't mean they won't do a hell of a lot of damage in the trying though.


Not quite nutty, the caliphate lasted from the time of Muhammad until the Ottoman Empire.  Many Muslims see the caliphate as the "glory days" of Islam.  Disagreement over the line of succession caused the Sunni/*expletive deleted*it rift.  The Sunni Wahabbi/Salafism sect want to formally institute the caliphate, strict adherrence of Sharia, Qur'an and hadith and theocracy.  They don't as much hate our freedoms as believe that such freedoms are a violation of Sharia.

Ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Ibn Taymiyya produced the most important work according to the Wahabbi sect.  Reading their work, they sounded just as nutty as the Puritans and some of the Calvinists.



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That's assuming, of course, that the American people even have the stomach for war anymore, and I seriously doubt we do....
Unfortunately, I rather fear you're correct. At this point it'll take a hell of a lot bigger attack than 9/11 to wake up the bulk of the populace again, and to be honest when (not if) that does happen, the reaction won't be "well, I guess it's time to get serious" but rather "It's Bush's Fault!/It's the Democrat's Fault!" Sad

I know I'm in a minority as I see other threats as being greater than the Wahabbis.  Compared to the Soviet Union, the Wahabbis are a joke.  The Wahabbis don't have tens of thousands of nuclear weapons, nor a standing army in the millions.  A study by Wilson and Thomson (2005) showed that the annual average death rate from road injuries was approximately 390 times that from international terrorism.   In 2001, U.S. road deaths were equal to the number of people that died on 9/11 every 26 days.

Is terrorism a serious concern?  Of course.  But it is not the ONLY concern.  Personally, I see China as our greatest future enemy.  Possibly bigger than the Soviet Union.  Even compared to a united Calphite, China could cause us a lot more damage.  Central Eurasia will be the next Middle East. 
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Bogie

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2007, 03:00:45 PM »
Why did we go into Iraq?
 
Of course, no matter what I saw, people will stuff their fingers in their ears and chant to themselves, because they don't want to hear it...
 
Hussein sort of ignored all sorts of "sanctions" and "strongly worded reprimands." He was stockpiling and developing chemical warfare materials. And he had a proven history of using them. When someone is stocking up on stuff, and says "Hey, you're next," what are your alternatives?
 
And part of it is about human rights. Sure, you've got the jihadists. But you've got a LOT of folks who have tasted freedom, and they LIKE it. And that scares the bejeebers outta the jihadists.
 
Of course, we could hop in the wayback machine, and go visit our brothers, the pre-war enlightened and sorta free Iraqis...
 
Would you maybe like your own Iraqi bride? She's basically for sale, and if you don't like her, if she doesn't work out, hey, you can pretty much do whatever you want.
 
Do you hate those _other_ people across town? Hey, your pastor will be MORE than happy to whip out the fatwah stick, and now it's okay for you to do whatever you want to 'em. How about mustard gas? Watch 'em squirm... Now we've got their women, at least until we get tired of them...
 
Then there's that teacher who's been teaching stuff you don't agree with... Off with their head! There, that was easy...
 
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Kaylee

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2007, 03:41:13 PM »
RevDisk - thank you very much for the informative post. God knows I sure don't know half enough to make some of those decisions. So no offense taken. Smiley

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Depends.  I personally have faith in the US.  If we feel it's justified, we can and will stomp anyone that opposes us.  Folks just disagree on justification.  If our country was invaded, say by China, they'd be slaughtered to the man.

There I disagree - with Ezekiel as a case in point. We could be invaded by aliens from Jupiter tomorrow, and someone would start spreading the line that we somehow brought it on ourselves. I'm not saying we're pure as the driven snow, but rather than no matter how good the justification is, we have maybe 1-3 years until the "blame American first" media storm gets louder than the natural "hit back" response.

There are too many people in positions of media influence these day with a vested interest in making whichever person is in charge at the time look bad to allow for a sustained conflict. Sure from my point of view I think a Republican CiC has it worse from most media outlets, but Clinton sure didn't get any slack either with all the "wag the dog" fanfare some years back.

Things might change once the Boomer generation and its "we stopped the Evil VietNam War" self-mythos die off, but for the next generation or so I don't think we have the stomach or attention span for a sustained conflict.

Many now will say "I supported Afghanistan, but not Iraq" and I say bullcrap to that.
I remember all the whining about "quagmire" and "that's where the USSR died" and so forth and so on as the buildup in Afghanistan was going on. If we'd never moved on, the same voices that now are screaming about Iraq would be screaming about Afghanistan and unjust war.


Gewehr - I think you're right about what would happen with a fuel surplus. (and Tams does have a way with words, eh? "Suburban with a codpiece." Cheesy )

RevDisk - what I was calling nutty was the belief that it would actually be possible to grow the Caliphate to cover the earth, as some want. Or rather, the idea of invading ships of Jihadis. That does not however mean they won't do a hell of a lot of damage in the trying.

As to the "not the greatest concern" - certainly long term I will agree with you that there are bigger clouds on the horizon, China as you mentioned being perhaps the biggest. That said, they are not the active concern as they're not presently trying to kill us. I don't believe a comparison to traffic fatalities is valid, because the Jihadis are a human force actively working on expanding their numbers and killing westerners.

Nonetheless your preferred approach makes a lot of sense to me.



glockfan.45

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Re: Defending the Iraq war.
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2007, 04:28:16 PM »
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Trying to prevent nations from developing nuclear weapons is like trying to plug six holes in a boat with five fingers (perhaps not the best analogy but it conveys my point). We cannot prevent research and development on the global scale forever. With the end of the cold war scientist and material from the former Soviet Union flooded the global market all for sale to the highest bidder.

Oh, really?

I just retired from a certain government agency whose sole purpose was to monitor and track nuclear weapons and technology, ferreting out the proliferators and potential proliferators.  That's the first I've heard that there's a flood of former Soviet nuclear weapons materiel out there - perhaps you're working for the wrong guys, or need to call somebody in the Beltline and tell them they're going at it all wrong, you've got something conclusive to show them.

Thats a pretty vauge claim without much backing  undecided . As far as soviet nuclear technology leaking out is concerned explain to me the 100 or so unaccounted nuclear devices from the former Republic of the Ukraine. I'm sure theres more I am unaware of but never the less the scientist are out there for hire as well. Nuclear proliferation is a reality we have to face and keeping tabs on and bullying the world will not work forever.

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Currently over here in Baghdad and I will concur with Gewehr on this.  The other thing to think about is that what is the easiest group to change.  Children.  The children are the answer and the children will make a difference in about 5-10 years.  This is going to take a generation or two to completely "fix."  Does that mean that we will have 100,000+ troop levels for that amount of time?  I hope not, but you can bet that we will see a fixed

Heres a thought, are these the same children whos parents were killed by a botched U.S air strike? For every smiling face you see out there I am sure theres two more who are not so happy. Besides its always a good idea to be nice to the man with the gun and the candy.

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So over 3,000 innocent U.S. citizens killed and billions of dollars in damage is merely a "global bloody nose"??  Perhaps you think that the Islamists have a legitimate beef, that maybe the U.S got what was coming to it because of our arrogant and imperialist tendencies?
Sheesh.

In the grand scheme of things yes, I hate to sound callous but it is a mere bloody nose. As I have said before our terrible foreign policy gave them a beef. I am not defending their actions but if Russia propped up a dictator in America for 20 years, or gave weapons to your enemy then you would likely have a beef with Canada. Are we really so pompus that we think were the only nation in the world that has a right to hold a grudge?

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Then just explain that part.  To whom is it unjust and why?  
Its unjust to the soldiers who signed up to defend this country and its constitutiton, not to die and be maimed to save a nickel on a gallon of gas or add a few points to Haliburtons stock. I think this country really needs to step back and evaluate its use of force compared to what the founders intended it to be. Its unjust to people like you and me who will be paying off the deficit for years to come. Its unjust to the people in Iraq who traded a dictator and stability for roving death squads, daily bombings with mass casualties, and total destruction of infastructure. All to remove a dictator we kept in power for so long.

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Rather, the gasoline surplus will be sucked up right quick by poseurs driving Hummers and "Tahoe-with-Codpiece" H2s (Thanks, Tam!), or soccer mommies who absolutely must have a Suburban or Excursion to transport their precious cargo back and forth to Chuck E. Cheese.

lol @ Tahoe with a codpiece H2 thats great, but sadly your right in that observation. It ticks me off to see folks every day driving a mobile home to work and back then whine about how much they spend on gas  undecided . I certianly am not saying everybody should be driving a Geo Metro around, but how the hell do you justify something like the Ford Excursion for a daily commuter? Just remember your funding your enemy.

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remember, 911 was in 2001, it is now 2007 and we have yet to have even a minor Jihadist staged terrorist event take place here on our soil. I for one COMMEND the Pres and his administration for this achievement.

And we had eight years with no attacks before that? Its not over and will happen again so dont go patting Bush on the back just yet.

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And part of it is about human rights. Sure, you've got the jihadists. But you've got a LOT of folks who have tasted freedom, and they LIKE it. And that scares the bejeebers outta the jihadists.

Dont go strolling down the U.S takes the moral high ground road because its an argument you will lose. Our invading Iraq had nothing to do with spreading freedom and democracy and its all I can do to keep from falling off my chair laughing when Bush makes that claim. The U.S inavaded Iraq only to serve our own short sighted goals with the spreading freedom line as a defense. How the hell people can make that claim with a straight face when our President strolls hand in hand with the crown price of Saudi Arabia (a country that has human rights violations which would make you sick) and kisses him on the fing cheek is totally beyond my realm of comprehension.


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