Author Topic: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."  (Read 43103 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #125 on: January 03, 2012, 10:26:28 PM »
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3. The Soviets never would have come close to surviving were it not for American material aid, period.  They would have been a mess of mass starvation and inadequate logistics that would have been rolled up to the Urals.

Soviet military logistics were superior in many aspects to those of the Germans - better logistical organization on the company level, for instance. And they had more troops. The major Soviet arms plants were in Nizhny Tagil and even further east. And the Soviets had more troops.

All the Soviets needed to do was save Moscow and turn it into a grind. Once it was a grind Germany had lost.

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4. More square miles of Europe were under totalitarian rule after WW2 than before.  We kicked the crap out of one devil only to pave the way for the next.

The Soviets were not anywhere as homicidal as Hitler. They were homicidal to be sure - but the Black Book of Communism overstates Stalin's horrific atrocities still further.

Not to mention the murder of millions of innocents - Russians, Poles, Czechs, Jews - in Eastern Europe by Hitler. The Soviets' retaliation was far more timid (compare the amount of German civilians killed by the Allies to the amount of Soviet civilians killed by the Nazis. While the greater Soviet military casualties can be explained merely with the Soviets'... limited tactical skill, the vast civilian casualties have only brutality as their explanation).

Stalin was an oppressor and a murderer I have no doubt.

Hitler was the international equivalent of the woman-suit wearing fellow in Silence of the Lambs.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #126 on: January 03, 2012, 10:35:49 PM »
Frankly the best way to do alternate-history  would be to just nuke Moscow as soon as JApan surrenders. Perhaps 100,000 people would have died, but millions would be saved from Soviet slavery.
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roo_ster

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #127 on: January 04, 2012, 08:17:38 AM »
Soviet log may have been splendiferous at the company level, but they never would have gotten crops in from the fields or material to the front were it not for the gift of tens of thousands of American trucks.

Without them, the whole Soviet war machine grinds to a halt and millions starve.
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roo_ster

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agricola

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #128 on: January 04, 2012, 08:28:41 AM »
The question was not WRT the proxies.  We have declared a hot war against Orthodox Islamic terrorism, something we never did to the Russian commies.  I suspect that is because the Russian commies never killed us by the thousands.

Nope - there were several hot wars against various proxy regimes, just as there are hot wars against various (or percieved) franchises of al-Q in various parts of the world (Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan, the claims that were made before Iraq etc).  Of course, the main difference is that you couldnt declare war against the Soviets in the open way that you have against al-Q because it would have lead to an actual, genuine apocalypse.  

Quote from: roo_ster
1. The USSR, along with Nazi Germany, was the proximate cause of WWII.  No great outcry to get involved when the two sides f ht esame totalitarian coin were chumming it up.  After Hitler nearly defeated the USSR, though, the commies, lefties, and sympathizers in gov't were all sorts of eager to jump in.

Actually it was (at least in the UK) the left who started to oppose Nazi Germany before most of the right (at least "most of the Tory Party") did.  Also lets not forget that the UK and France had actually declared war on the Germans before the secret provisions of the treaty you mention came into effect.

Quote from: roo_ster
2. Half of America's WW2 effort was not against the Japs.  Only a small fraction of total American WW2 resources were deployed against the Japanese.  The VAST majority was deployed against Germany.  Were it not for MacArthur's tender pride, the Japanese could have been handled with only the USMC and small fractions of the Navy and Army Air Corps, making the ratio even more skewed.

I didnt say "half of America's WW2 effort".  

Quote from: roo_ster
3. The Soviets never would have come close to surviving were it not for American material aid, period.  They would have been a mess of mass starvation and inadequate logistics that would have been rolled up to the Urals.

Not really.  As microbalrog states, once they had won in the winter of 1941 (or rather not lost), and once Stalin had taken the important decision to trust key members of his military leadership for the duration of the war, they were always going to win a war of attrition with the Nazis.  

Quote from: roo_ster
4. More square miles of Europe were under totalitarian rule after WW2 than before.  We kicked the crap out of one devil only to pave the way for the next.

This I agree with, though without starting a new - and almost certainly much worse - war right after Germany fell its difficult to see what else could have been done.

Quote from: roo_ster
5. We did not go on to finish the job of destroying totalitarianism and deliberately let the Soviets penetrate farther into Europe had our leadership not deliberately delayed.

This was perhaps a sensible decision, given that very few people would have gone along with it.

Quote from: roo_ster
Net result; after all that blood, money, and effort; was an enlarged and strengthened evil Russian communist empire.  Pardon me if I do not cheer the result.

Would the alternative (if they had been able to win) have been any better?  


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #129 on: January 04, 2012, 08:32:32 AM »
Soviet log may have been splendiferous at the company level, but they never would have gotten crops in from the fields or material to the front were it not for the gift of tens of thousands of American trucks.

Without them, the whole Soviet war machine grinds to a halt and millions starve.

food shortages were already detected in the Wehrmacht in  September 1941.
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roo_ster

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #130 on: January 04, 2012, 11:35:41 PM »
food shortages were already detected in the Wehrmacht in  September 1941.

Yes, and...?



Also, am I a bad man for wanting to beat Michael Medved like a red-headed step child for not-so-subtly comparing Ron Paul to Hitler and his supporters chanting "Ron Paul" to Nazis shouting "sieg heil" on his radio show today?  Man has no shame.

Ron Paul has hacked me off plenty, but I may vote for him just to spite all the right people.

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roo_ster

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TommyGunn

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #131 on: January 04, 2012, 11:45:50 PM »

Also, am I a bad man for wanting to beat Michael Medved like a red-headed step child for not-so-subtly comparing Ron Paul to Hitler and his supporters chanting "Ron Paul" to Nazis shouting "sieg heil" on his radio show today?  Man has no shame.

Ron Paul has hacked me off plenty, but I may vote for him just to spite all the right people.



That depends upon what the point Medved was trying to make.  Our local radio plays his program taped, from 2:00AM-5:00AM so it's a little unlikely I will hear this unless I wake up and can't get back to sleep (it does happen).
Medved is very knowledgeable and I usually don't find his statements outlandish.
The Nazis did yell "heil victory" and a good many of R. Paul's supporters are .... a bit, um, well,  [tinfoil] - like.
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roo_ster

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #132 on: January 04, 2012, 11:53:58 PM »
That depends upon what the point Medved was trying to make.

That Paul was like Hitler and his supporters like Nazis?  How about that point?

Paul had made a comment about, contrary to Nixon's "We're all Keynesians now," that "We're all Austrians now,"  what with all the attention on the debt, hard money, etc.  Medved then goes on and asks, "Who was the most famous man from Austria, hmmmmm?  It's Hitler."

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roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #133 on: January 05, 2012, 12:58:46 AM »
Yes, and...?



Both forces suffered from starvation and cold. Hitler would have lost either way, just after killing more Soviet soldiers - and more importantly, more innocent Russians, Poles, Czechs, Frenchmen, etc. etc.

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #134 on: January 05, 2012, 01:12:57 AM »
Paul had made a comment about, contrary to Nixon's "We're all Keynesians now," that "We're all Austrians now,"  what with all the attention on the debt, hard money, etc.  Medved then goes on and asks, "Who was the most famous man from Austria, hmmmmm?  It's Hitler."
No, it's Schubert!

Medved is allegedly a right-winger of sorts, as I understand it. He is a political commentator, and has been plying his trade for several years now. For somebody in that field to be that stupid about a subject that big... damn. It's like a church-going, WWJD-bracelet wearing Christian hearing kids singing "Jesus Loves Me" and wondering why they're singing about "some Mexican dude" at church.

TommyGunn

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #135 on: January 05, 2012, 11:21:49 AM »
That Paul was like Hitler and his supporters like Nazis?  How about that point?

Paul had made a comment about, contrary to Nixon's "We're all Keynesians now," that "We're all Austrians now,"  what with all the attention on the debt, hard money, etc.  Medved then goes on and asks, "Who was the most famous man from Austria, hmmmmm?  It's Hitler."



Well, I think that some of Paul's supporters are as blindly devoted to him as many of Hitler's supporters were devoted to him, so the point may actually have a tip to it.
Using Hitler in any analogy or argument is a dangerous thing.  It's probably best to NOT use Hitler unless one knows a lot about the Third Reich & Hitler and makes a very clear, deliniated comparison.
Paul's minions and Hitler's may be similar insofar as they are "unreasonably" devoted to their ....uh, well, "fuhrer/leader" but Hitler and Ron Paul are very very different people.  Paul is an unelectable kook (Hitler by definition was "electable" [tinfoil] ).  Hitler was so ruthless and murderous it is very hard to come to grips with the reality of what he was while R. Paul doesn't have a murderous bone in his body -- to the point in some peoples' opinion that he won't be tough enough on the nation's enemies.
However, I can well appreciate people who like Paul taking deep umbrage at any comparison to Hitler or the Third Reich.  
Medved's point was only valid by a very very narrow definition .....and while I generally respect him, I think he made an error of judgement by using Hitler/The Third Reich in this illustration.
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lee n. field

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #136 on: January 05, 2012, 11:50:47 AM »
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 11:57:19 AM by lee n. field »
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TommyGunn

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #137 on: January 05, 2012, 11:53:26 AM »
"Reductio ad Hitlerum" :laugh: :laugh:

Yea, seriously though I get it.
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Tallpine

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #138 on: January 05, 2012, 12:45:13 PM »
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I think that some of Paul's supporters are as blindly devoted to him as many of Hitler's supporters were devoted to him

Blind devotion, or just that no one else running for president has a platform anything like his  ???

Even you even mostly agree with RP then there is no one else even close.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #139 on: January 05, 2012, 12:48:06 PM »
Blind devotion, or just that no one else running for president has a platform anything like his  ???

Even you even mostly agree with RP then there is no one else even close.

And this ladies and gentlemen is the key issue.

Ron Paul presents us with an opportunity to bypass the process of slow, torturous, one-percentile-point-a-year progress.

If Ron Paul crashes and burns, we do not have a second Ron Paul to run in 2016. We have failed to create a body of libertarian politicians from which a second, and third, and fourth Ron Paul may spring.
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Tallpine

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #140 on: January 05, 2012, 01:09:42 PM »
And this ladies and gentlemen is the key issue.

Ron Paul presents us with an opportunity to bypass the process of slow, torturous, one-percentile-point-a-year progress.

If Ron Paul crashes and burns, we do not have a second Ron Paul to run in 2016. We have failed to create a body of libertarian politicians from which a second, and third, and fourth Ron Paul may spring.

If he actually does do consistently well in the primaries, I predict that he will not live to see the 2012 Republican convention  =(
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mtnbkr

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #141 on: January 05, 2012, 01:16:16 PM »
If he actually does do consistently well in the primaries, I predict that he will not live to see the 2012 Republican convention  =(

We'll see.

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lee n. field

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #142 on: January 05, 2012, 01:41:39 PM »
"Reductio ad Hitlerum" :laugh: :laugh:

Yea, seriously though I get it.

Resorting to a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis should be an automatic forfeit.
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makattak

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #143 on: January 05, 2012, 01:43:51 PM »
And this ladies and gentlemen is the key issue.

Ron Paul presents us with an opportunity to bypass the process of slow, torturous, one-percentile-point-a-year progress.

If Ron Paul crashes and burns, we do not have a second Ron Paul to run in 2016. We have failed to create a body of libertarian politicians from which a second, and third, and fourth Ron Paul may spring.

NO, he doesn't. Change doesn't come quickly. Or, rather, LASTING change doesn't come quickly absent divine intervention.

Even, heaven forbid, should Ron Paul be elected and placed in power TODAY, we wouldn't get an "opportunity to bypass the process of slow, torturous, one-percentile-point-a-year progress" because there would be a MASSIVE BACKLASH to his efforts.

Further, there is the problem that everything Ron Paul wants would have to go through Congress and, likely, the courts. Not only does that take time, but there would be significant resistance to efforts for quick, significant change.

Our polity was purposely designed for slow change. Yes, we've moved FAR from the founder's intentions. We will not get back there with some quick fix like electing your libertarian super-hero. We would likely lose ground as a result of his efforts, not gain it, ultimately. (Just as, mirabile dictu, Obama's efforts may actually cause the liberals to lose ground due to the massive backlash of 2010 and the hopefully massive backlash of 2012.)
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makattak

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #144 on: January 05, 2012, 01:45:25 PM »
If he actually does do consistently well in the primaries, I predict that he will not live to see the 2012 Republican convention  =(

 :facepalm:

Fortunately, I don't think you have to worry about the conditional part of that statement occurring. The later may happen simply given his age, but I think your tinfoil might need some reapplication.
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So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #145 on: January 05, 2012, 02:31:03 PM »
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Even, heaven forbid, should Ron Paul be elected and placed in power TODAY, we wouldn't get an "opportunity to bypass the process of slow, torturous, one-percentile-point-a-year progress" because there would be a MASSIVE BACKLASH to his efforts.

It would not be "total victory overnight". But it would get us to, say, ten-percentile-points a year and not 1005.

Quote
Further, there is the problem that everything Ron Paul wants would have to go through Congress and, likely, the courts. Not only does that take time, but there would be significant resistance to efforts for quick, significant change.

Nope. Repealing, say, Clinton's executive orders would take another executive order.

Quote
Our polity was purposely designed for slow change. Yes, we've moved FAR from the founder's intentions.

The Constitution has provisions for both a regular-system operations, with slow change, but there are also loopholes - deliberately, no doubt, left in by Madison & Co.  - for a fast, peaceful revolution.

Quote
We will not get back there with some quick fix like electing your libertarian super-hero. We would likely lose ground as a result of his efforts, not gain it, ultimately.

Create a new situation and hold on to it for a year or two - and create a constituency out of whoever benefits from the new status quo.
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lee n. field

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #146 on: January 05, 2012, 05:18:41 PM »
Change doesn't come quickly. Or, rather, LASTING change doesn't come quickly absent divine intervention.

It can.  1989. 

Divine intervention: I have a "fairly robust" view of providence, but don't expect it to be overtly visible until judgment day.


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Tallpine

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #147 on: January 05, 2012, 05:41:14 PM »
Quote
Further, there is the problem that everything Ron Paul wants would have to go through Congress

And everything Congress wants would have to go though Ron Paul.  :P
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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #148 on: January 05, 2012, 06:33:01 PM »
If he actually does do consistently well in the primaries, I predict that he will not live to see the 2012 Republican convention  =(

I don't know about that.....but I'm sure that the GOP would sabotage his POTUS run, preferring an Obama 2nd term over a Paul presidency......
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TommyGunn

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Re: Ron Paul in Iowa; "Except for his foreign policy..."
« Reply #149 on: January 05, 2012, 07:29:40 PM »
Resorting to a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis should be an automatic forfeit.
;)
I don't disagree with that.
Unless the comparison is valid -- and as of now I see no one in America who really qualifies as another Hitler.
I suppose some foreign nuts might come close but that's another story for another thread.
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