Armed Polite Society

Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on May 18, 2022, 08:56:52 PM

Title: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: MillCreek on May 18, 2022, 08:56:52 PM
https://time.com/6175734/reliance-on-fossil-fuels/

Plastic, cement, steel and ammonia are the four essentials.  I did not guess the ammonia.  I thought the fourth would be silicon for electronic components. 
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: lee n. field on May 18, 2022, 10:25:18 PM
without looking, agriculture, and a chemical precursor to a lot of other things.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: Nick1911 on May 18, 2022, 10:31:01 PM
40-50% of the nitrogen atoms in your body came out of a haber bosch reactor, which produces ammonia from atmospheric nitrogen and hydrogen.

If you asked me to list the 5 most important inventions of the 20th century, that process would probably be on it.

I'll add that I kinda disagree with the conjecture that these four essentials can't exist without fossil fuels.  They all require energy inputs and raw feedstock.  Fossil fuels are used because they are the cheapest source of energy.  Kilning limestone into cement?  Needs heat input.  Plastics need organic molecules to polymerize, but you can get that from living things.  And indeed, we do make plastics from bio sources.  Hydrogen for haber bosch can come from water, it doesn't have to come from methane.  And electric steel furnaces are already a thing, although I'm sketchy if that works with raw ore.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: kgbsquirrel on May 19, 2022, 12:49:19 AM
https://time.com/6175734/reliance-on-fossil-fuels/

Plastic, cement, steel and ammonia are the four essentials.  I did not guess the ammonia.  I thought the fourth would be silicon for electronic components.

And helium, which is needed for higher technologies.  Almost all of our helium production is a byproduct of petroleum extraction and refinement.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: K Frame on May 19, 2022, 06:57:38 AM
"But it is ammonia that deserves the top position as our most important material: its synthesis is the basis of all nitrogen fertilizers, and without their applications it would be impossible to feed, at current levels, nearly half of today’s nearly 8 billion people."

So Joe Biden's war on fossil fuels is really a war on humanity.

If he can realize his dream of crushing fossil fuels, not just in the US but worldwide, he can reduce world wide population, cut global emissions dramatically, and take a positive step and corralling climate change.

Now we know the truth of his dementia dream.

He's actual a monster.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: Devonai on May 19, 2022, 07:28:32 AM
Can't we just poop on our gardens?
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: Ben on May 19, 2022, 08:00:54 AM
Can't we just poop on our gardens?

I think you kid, but the current administration thinks poop is the answer to fertilizer shortages in the ag industry.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: zahc on May 19, 2022, 10:19:26 AM
Bo surprise to me. We have basically evolved to eat oil. Been that way for a long time now.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: Pb on May 19, 2022, 10:28:27 AM
Can't we just poop on our gardens?

It needs to be treated to reduce the risk of food contamination.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: K Frame on May 19, 2022, 10:28:50 AM
Isn't migrant labor crapping in the fields the biggest reason we have e coli and other nasty bug outbreaks in bagged and fresh vegetables?

Sure, let's everyone do that!
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: Fly320s on May 19, 2022, 10:32:11 AM
Can't we just poop on our gardens?

Already happening.  Many places use treated human sewage as a fertilizer.  NH allows it.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: MillCreek on May 19, 2022, 10:48:40 AM
And helium, which is needed for higher technologies.  Almost all of our helium production is a byproduct of petroleum extraction and refinement.

When maintenance is done on our MRI scanners, they take great pains to capture all of the liquid helium used to cool the magnets.  None of this venting to the atmosphere stuff.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: Ben on May 19, 2022, 10:55:01 AM
When maintenance is done on our MRI scanners, they take great pains to capture all of the liquid helium used to cool the magnets.  None of this venting to the atmosphere stuff.

https://youtu.be/l82OgpqvRok
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: charby on May 19, 2022, 01:22:58 PM
Can't we just poop on our gardens?

https://www.milorganite.com/
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: WLJ on May 19, 2022, 01:27:13 PM
Can't we just poop on our gardens?

Tried that, neighbors kept calling the cops.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: kgbsquirrel on May 19, 2022, 03:16:39 PM
When maintenance is done on our MRI scanners, they take great pains to capture all of the liquid helium used to cool the magnets.  None of this venting to the atmosphere stuff.

And you still lose a bunch.  The machine is losing helium right now.  The atom is so small and slippery that we can not make a container good enough to prevent all loss.  And since all the technology that uses it is also constantly losing it, we need a steady supply to keep that tech working.  Killing the petroleum industry kills that supply.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: charby on May 19, 2022, 03:32:03 PM
And you still lose a bunch.  The machine is losing helium right now.  The atom is so small and slippery that we can not make a container good enough to prevent all loss.  And since all the technology that uses it is also constantly losing it, we need a steady supply to keep that tech working.  Killing the petroleum industry kills that supply.

Can helium be cryogenically mined from the atmosphere like they do with N, CO2, O2, and some of the noble gases?
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: Nick1911 on May 19, 2022, 03:47:23 PM
Can helium be cryogenically mined from the atmosphere like they do with N, CO2, O2, and some of the noble gases?

I think hydrogen and helium both get lost to space out of the atmosphere. 
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: kgbsquirrel on May 19, 2022, 03:48:02 PM
Can helium be cryogenically mined from the atmosphere like they do with N, CO2, O2, and some of the noble gases?

Nope, 5ppm is just too low for economical air extraction.  And it won't get higher as it goes straight up to the top of the atmosphere and is blown off by the solar wind.

All present earthly reserves of helium are subterranean; it is the byproduct of radioactive decay and a significant quantity ends up dissolved in petroleum or entrained in rock while a regular amount is exuded into the air by the ground (and then blown off by the solar winds, to the tune of 1500 tons a year). 

United States petroleum extraction accounts for 70% of the world's production of helium.

Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: charby on May 19, 2022, 03:54:22 PM
Nope, 5ppm is just too low for economical air extraction.  And it won't get higher as it goes straight up to the top of the atmosphere and is blown off by the solar wind.

All present earthly reserves of helium are subterranean; it is the byproduct of radioactive decay and a significant quantity ends up dissolved in petroleum or entrained in rock while a regular amount is exuded into the air by the ground (and then blown off by the solar winds, to the tune of 1500 tons a year). 

United States petroleum extraction accounts for 70% of the world's production of helium.

Thanks, I was just curious.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: Ben on May 19, 2022, 04:02:34 PM
United States petroleum extraction accounts for 70% of the world's production of helium.

That damn big oil again!  =D
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: MillCreek on May 19, 2022, 04:23:06 PM
https://jpt.spe.org/rarefied-air-drilling-for-helium-in-north-america

This was an interesting article. Maybe we should all invest in helium futures. If nothing else, we can sound like Alvin the chipmunk.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: Boomhauer on May 21, 2022, 04:12:39 PM
"But it is ammonia that deserves the top position as our most important material: its synthesis is the basis of all nitrogen fertilizers, and without their applications it would be impossible to feed, at current levels, nearly half of today’s nearly 8 billion people."

So Joe Biden's war on fossil fuels is really a war on humanity.

If he can realize his dream of crushing fossil fuels, not just in the US but worldwide, he can reduce world wide population, cut global emissions dramatically, and take a positive step and corralling climate change.

Now we know the truth of his dementia dream.

He's actual a monster.

He truly is and the liberals cheer it on as a “good thing”
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: gunsmith on May 22, 2022, 12:07:02 AM
according to google-we are running out of helium.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: 230RN on May 22, 2022, 12:46:53 AM
^
No problem.  All we have to do is detonate more H-bombs.

Or conquer the cold fusion power process.

K-frame noted:

"Now we know the truth of his dementia dream.

He's actually a monster."

True, but let's not forget the explanation: That Communism arises from stressed populations and that's his and his puppet masters' ultimate goal:  To present Communism as a solution to the troubles created by Leftist philosophies in the first place.

They realize only us dangerous extremist right-wingers know that, so they exert every effort to marginalize us.  And they have willing accomplices in the main stream media.

Terry said that and he ain't takin' it back.

"We have given you a Republic, Ma'am... if you can keep it."1

"Just you wite 'Enry 'Iggins, just you wite."2

-----------------

1.  A line from the Ben Franklin character in the movie "1776."

2.  A line from Eliza Doolittle in the movie version of "Pygmalion."
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: WLJ on May 22, 2022, 07:15:43 AM
according to google-we are running out of helium.

No problem, the sun is producing tons of it just have to go there to get it.
I'm submitting to congress a $50 billion bill to study this.
I should finish the study in...say..40-50 years.

I know what you're thinking, we go there at night duh!
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: Fly320s on May 22, 2022, 07:25:35 AM
I know what you're thinking, we go there at night duh!

Nah, just go around back to the dark side.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: Boomhauer on May 22, 2022, 09:05:10 AM
If we are running out of helium as they say then why can you buy refrigerant jug size tanks of helium at Walmart and dollar tree sells helium filled balloons for $1.25?
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: gunsmith on May 22, 2022, 10:25:10 AM
If we are running out of helium as they say then why can you buy refrigerant jug size tanks of helium at Walmart and dollar tree sells helium filled balloons for $1.25?
Aliens
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: WLJ on May 22, 2022, 10:29:56 AM
Aliens

Anyone here watch Farscape?
One of the characters (Rygel) would fart helium when nervous
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: Fly320s on May 22, 2022, 10:36:06 AM
Anyone here watch Farscape?
One of the characters (Rygel) would fart helium when nervous

Methane is lighter than air, so....
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: MillCreek on May 22, 2022, 10:50:23 AM
When I was in chemistry school back in the early 80's, the gas chromatography carrier gas choices were helium, hydrogen, nitrogen, and argon.  Choosing the optimum carrier gas involved issues of safety, cost, and what type of analysis was being done. I wrote my master's thesis on the quantitative analysis of barbiturates in urine using GC/MS and nitrogen was the carrier gas of choice for drug analysis. All four of these gases are still used today.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: 230RN on May 22, 2022, 11:33:40 AM
Quote from: WLJ link=topic=66636.msg1355756#msg
1355756 date=1653218143
No problem, the sun is producing tons of it just have to go there to get it.
I'm submitting to congress a $50 billion bill to study this.
I should finish the study in...say..40-50 years.

I know what you're thinking, we go there at night duh!

That's the hard way to do it.  Why not follow the suggestion in my previous post about detonating hydrogen bombs to generate He.  (Or perfect the cold fusion process.)

Did you miss that?
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: WLJ on May 22, 2022, 11:35:58 AM
That's the hard way to do it.  Why not follow the suggestion in my previous post about detonating hydrogen bombs to generate He.  (Or perfect the cold fusion process.)

Did you miss that?

That doesn't get me $50B out of congress
I'm buy lunch for everybody when the study is approved
Then go Island shopping
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: kgbsquirrel on May 22, 2022, 01:08:02 PM
If we are running out of helium as they say then why can you buy refrigerant jug size tanks of helium at Walmart and dollar tree sells helium filled balloons for $1.25?

Because the Clintons sold the Federal Strategic Helium Reserve for pennies on the dollar to their friends who are now selling it to the world market.  70% of the world's helium comes from the USA today.  Half of that is new extraction and the other half is the SHR being sold off by a private company.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: gunsmith on May 22, 2022, 05:29:15 PM
Because the Clintons sold the Federal Strategic Helium Reserve for pennies on the dollar to their friends who are now selling it to the world market.  70% of the world's helium comes from the USA today.  Half of that is new extraction and the other half is the SHR being sold off by a private company.

so, is helium a good thing to stock up on then? - like if I store a few tanks somewhere, can I make a huge profit if/when it runs out?
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: 230RN on May 23, 2022, 02:43:18 AM
That doesn't get me $50B out of congress
I'm buy lunch for everybody when the study is approved
Then go Island shopping

Well, you got me on that one.  Point taken.  I'm just not used to the idea that the goobermink can crank out $50B just by running the presses an extra 84 seconds.

As has been said, "$50B here and $50B there, and soon you're talking about real fake money."

Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: RocketMan on May 23, 2022, 09:57:08 AM
so, is helium a good thing to stock up on then? - like if I store a few tanks somewhere, can I make a huge profit if/when it runs out?

You might be able to work something out.  However, He2 is a very small molecule, making it prone to leaking away and hard to store long term without losing some of your product.
Title: Re: The four essential materials of the modern world and fossil fuels
Post by: 230RN on May 23, 2022, 07:12:20 PM
Helium is funny stuff and it knows it.