Abuse has worsened in Gitmo since Obama

[roo_ster]

No, I never said we shouldn't diligently look at all detainees to see which are really a danger and which are just goat herders dimed out by local warlords for reward cash.  Of friggin course, we need to do so.  I apologize if I didn't spell that out, but I kinda assumed everyone understood that point.

Nah, that's not my beef.

My beef is that folks make statements like, "Many folks in GB are innocent goat herders (IGH) and GB is bad, bad, bad.  There is no process to get released if you are an IGH, so they need to be tried as criminals in Fed court.  See, they have released X number already, proving my point that innocent people are sent to GB!"

Without realizing that the same process that found no reason to hold the many guys released has also been applied to the jokers still there...and found reason to keep them in custody.


EDIT & ADDITION:

Oh, I am aware under what circumstances WB is used in .mil training.  I just don't consider any darn thing done to service members in training to be anything near torture*.  As to WB's risks, it is just one of many in a rigorous training regimen.  And WAY down the list, magnitude-wise.  I am OK with any and all methods used by cadre on our boys to be used on jihadis during interrogation.






* My primary complaint at every school or exercise was "It is not rigorous enough."  Maybe I am like Woody Allen in some way: I think any training regimen I can make it through not difficult enough.   (Yes, I know I am living up/down to the stereotype: "I love how this sucks!  I wish this sucked MORE!")

"I wouldn't want to join any club that would have me as a member."
----Woody Allen

[roo_ster]

Being kept awake, cold, and naked for weeks on end to the point where your heart fails and doctors need to rush in and revive you is obviously torture, and that's what happened to the detainee.

Not so obvious, unless every taser, use of OC, or the like by LEOs on recalcitrant suspects who die (usually due to some underlying cause merely exacerbated by the taser/OC/etc) is also torture.  As with OC & tasers, vigorous, non-torturous interrogation techniques stress the hell outta the guy in the receiving end, but only cause death when the target already has an underlying problem.

Just because someone dies while being interrogated does not prove that torture was involved.  Heck, one guy in the ER my wife helped square away died yesterday while being questioned by his doctor.  Obviously, it was torture and not the already-diagnosed liver failure, pneumonia, congestive heart failure, and O2 stats so low a yoga master couldn't limbo under them.

[Seenterman]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
is not part of the COTUS, the governing document of these United States.

Next you're going to tell us Jefferson authored the COTUS from Paris while including the words, "separation of church and state," the Nazis bombed Pearl Harbor, and Old Yeller was first pitched as "Brokeback Beagle," a sex-positive take on a boy & his dog.

Wow, Ok you got me I misattributed a quote from The Declaration of Independence to the Constitution, perhaps the gravest of errors to even be made on the internetz! Oh I beg for your forgiveness oh great protector of truth and integrity of the documents of the United States. But as I see that is the only facet of my post you commented on I'll assume you agree with the rest of it, as you could find no other flaw to wildly make fun of.

Well then, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about what constitutes severe pain.  I endured worse "torture" back in college, and it wasn't any big thing.

Headless can you please elaborate on this "torture" you endured while in college. Did it include stress positions, sleep deprevation, nudity, being subject to extreme cold? Did it include all of these at the same time as what seems to be the M.O. for interrogators. I think it would enlighten the board to hear a more in depth account of your "torture".

I think what some posters are trying to say is that these actions alone dont constitute torture, but when combined or taken one method to the extreme it can constitute torture.

Not so obvious, unless every taser, use of OC, or the like by LEOs on recalcitrant suspects who die (usually due to some underlying cause merely exacerbated by the taser/OC/etc) is also torture.  As with OC & tasers, vigorous, non-torturous interrogation techniques stress the hell outta the guy in the receiving end, but only cause death when the target already has an underlying problem

.

Many flaws with the logic in that statement. To my knowledge OC has never killed anyone, but if I tied you up and sprayed OC in your eyes every 15 minutes, that would be torture, would it not? (Im not saying this has ever been done anywhere in history, just making an example) Just as if I left you in a room that was 32 degrees for an hour, that would suck but not be torture. If I left you in that 32 degree room naked for 24 hours, you would probably die of hypotermia. Would that be torture? Yes. Police officers also do not use OC or Tazers to draw a confession out of a suspect they use it to subdue a suspect who is being uncooperative, or violent. If I assault an officer and he uses a Tazer to stop, and arrest me is that torture? No. If I robbed a bank and got away but then cops caught up with me later but didn't have any evidence and then used a Tazer to shock me into confessing and telling them where I hid the evidence, that would be torture.

Just because someone dies while being interrogated does not prove that torture was involved.  Heck, one guy in the ER my wife helped square away died yesterday while being questioned by his doctor.  Obviously, it was torture and not the already-diagnosed liver failure, pneumonia, congestive heart failure, and O2 stats so low a yoga master couldn't limbo under them.

He was receiving medical attention while being questioned by a doctor in a hospital. This is a bad analogy.

[Balog]

Oh, I am aware under what circumstances WB is used in .mil training.  I just don't consider any darn thing done to service members in training to be anything near torture*.  As to WB's risks, it is just one of many in a rigorous training regimen.  And WAY down the list, magnitude-wise.  I am OK with any and all methods used by cadre on our boys to be used on jihadis during interrogation.

So the existence of MMA as a sport means beating the *expletive deleted*it out of someone is ok? I'm curious, if a training program is designed to help a service man withstand torture, wouldn't the techniques they face be sort of the definition of torture?

[roo_ster]

Wow, Ok you got me I misattributed a quote from The Declaration of Independence to the Constitution, perhaps the gravest of errors to even be made on the internetz! Oh I beg for your forgiveness oh great protector of truth and integrity of the documents of the United States. But as I see that is the only facet of my post you commented on I'll assume you agree with the rest of it, as you could find no other flaw to wildly make fun of.

Wrong assumption.  I did not consider it worth my time to read any more of your post after that.

I care enough about both documents to have copies, both electronic and hard, so that I can refer to them if I have some question on the content.  Project Gutenberg is helpful.

Many flaws with the logic in that statement. To my knowledge OC has never killed anyone...

LA Times claims ~60 deaths, ACLU ~30 deaths attributable to OC.

OC & Tasers are pain compliance tools.  IOW, the user inflicts pain on the subject until the subject acquiesces to the demands of the user.

Usually, the subject is perceived as a threat to the user or the public at large.

He was receiving medical attention while being questioned by a doctor in a hospital. This is a bad analogy.

It was also an attempt to demonstrate a particular logical fallacy:
"after this, therefore because (on account) of this"

[roo_ster]

So the existence of MMA as a sport means beating the *expletive deleted*it out of someone is ok?

You're going to have to expand a bit on that one to make it relevant to this discussion.

I'm curious, if a training program is designed to help a service man withstand torture, wouldn't the techniques they face be sort of the definition of torture?

No, especially if many of those techniques are already in use in other training programs as tools to turn up the stress level.

[Balog]

You're going to have to expand a bit on that one to make it relevant to this discussion.

You seem to be arguing that since people willingly undergo certain forms of duress, that those techniques are therefor non-torture.


I'm curious, how would you define torture? "I knows it when I sees it" is not a basis for law. You dislike the current definition and usage, so how would you define torture? What is and is not acceptable in your book?


Re Tasers and OC: you seem to be making self-defense a pre-emptive concept here. Are you saying that because these people are "a threat" using pain to get info from them is ok? You aren't toally clear on your stance.

OC & Tasers are pain compliance tools.  IOW, the user inflicts pain on the subject until the subject acquiesces to the demands of the user.

Usually, the subject is perceived as a threat to the user or the public at large.

[Seenterman]

Wrong assumption.  I did not consider it worth my time to read any more of your post after that.

I care enough about both documents to have copies, both electronic and hard, so that I can refer to them if I have some question on the content.  Project Gutenberg is helpful.

Wow that must make you a super special patriot! Good for you!

OC & Tasers are pain compliance tools.  IOW, the user inflicts pain on the subject until the subject acquiesces to the demands of the user.

Usually, the subject is perceived as a threat to the user or the public at large.

These tools are also used to make an arrest, or obtain compliance by a violent or uncooperative person in some type of detention center, they are not intelligence gathering tools.  I dont know what point your trying to make, try to be more in depth that two sentences.

He was receiving medical attention while being questioned by a doctor in a hospital. This is a bad analogy.

It was also an attempt to demonstrate a particular logical fallacy:
"after this, therefore because (on account) of this"

No your example just sucked. A sick criminal in a hospital obviously under medical supervision who happened to die while being questioned by a doctor does not equal torture, and does not compare to a detainee held without trial, being interogated while in a stress position, who hasn't been allowed to sleep for 2 days, in a 30 degree room.

[Gewehr98]

Lots of noise, very little light in this thread, especially towards the end.