Iraq War over

[wmenorr67]

I think for the most part we had no SOFA with Iraq until later in the war.  What ever one there was expires on the 31st and had to be renewed.  Iraq wasn't willing to extend the immunity part of the agreement.

[De Selby]

Wait, wait.

De Selby used the words 'civil society' in this contest?

Are you implying there was a civil society in a Ba'athist state?

You might be able to call it pure barbarism if you didn't have the Shia fundamentalist gangs that now rule Iraq to compare it to - which makes sense, since their main influence in political theory has been the Iranian "revolutionary" state.

Can anyone find an article citing iraqis who think life in Iraq is much better now?

[MicroBalrog]

Do you understand what the term 'civil society' means?

How many private charities, NGOs, and citizen's activist groups that were not actually an arm of the government operated in Ba'athist Iraq?

[AJ Dual]

If I'd known there were not going to be any WMDs there when we started the Iraq War I wouldn't have thought it smart to go there either, but it seems to me we've had enough contractors over there long enough to give the people a good chance in so far as infrastructure is concerned. 
I am far less sanguine about how things will work out with regards to Iran.

Meh...

If we hadn't gone into Iraq, the American Left would have themselves seized on all flimsy Iraq/terror/9-11 connections, and instead of blasting Bush for "Fake War for Oil! Halliburton ZOMG One Eleventy 11!!!1111!! Why are we in Iraq when all our focus should be on Afghanistan?" we'd have been subjected to eight years of "Kid Gloves/Hands Off for Evil Saddam for Oil! Haliiburton ZOMG One Eeleventy Ignoring Human Rights Abuses! Why are we in Afghanistan when we should be attacking Iraq! 11!!!1111!!" instead.

The American Right is far... far, far from perfect. And I do believe that Bush & Co. definitely  "saw what they wanted to see" in Iraq to some degree to have the war and occupation. However, the rest of the world, many of them in nations that aren't exactly our fans "saw it too".

However, the American Left is completely devoid of any moral compass, and has lost even the pretense of logic or honesty. The initial charitable foundation of Leftisim, "to give some poor guy, some rich guy's stuff" has used that to devolve into an ends-justify-the means mentality

[TommyGunn]

Can anyone find an article citing iraqis who think life in Iraq is much better now?

I'm sure all the Iraqis will be as objective and insightful as you are....

[wmenorr67]

Can anyone find an article citing iraqis who think life in Iraq is much better now?

I will do you one better.  First hand account.  I have been there and talked to the Iraqi people and 90% of the ones I talked to are glad Saddam is gone and we stayed around, 8% or so are glad he is gone but rather we hadn't stayed and the other 2% either wanted him to stay in power or really didn't give a rat's ass one way or another.

[Tallpine]

I will do you one better.  First hand account.  I have been there and talked to the Iraqi people and 90% of the ones I talked to are glad Saddam is gone and we stayed around, 8% or so are glad he is gone but rather we hadn't stayed and the other 2% either wanted him to stay in power or really didn't give a rat's ass one way or another.

Yeah, what I might say to a furriner carrying a gun 

[wmenorr67]

Yeah, what I might say to a furriner carrying a gun 

Take it at face value.

[longeyes]

Meh...

If we hadn't gone into Iraq, the American Left would have themselves seized on all flimsy Iraq/terror/9-11 connections, and instead of blasting Bush for "Fake War for Oil! Halliburton ZOMG One Eleventy 11!!!1111!! Why are we in Iraq when all our focus should be on Afghanistan?" we'd have been subjected to eight years of "Kid Gloves/Hands Off for Evil Saddam for Oil! Haliiburton ZOMG One Eeleventy Ignoring Human Rights Abuses! Why are we in Afghanistan when we should be attacking Iraq! 11!!!1111!!" instead.

The American Right is far... far, far from perfect. And I do believe that Bush & Co. definitely  "saw what they wanted to see" in Iraq to some degree to have the war and occupation. However, the rest of the world, many of them in nations that aren't exactly our fans "saw it too".

However, the American Left is completely devoid of any moral compass, and has lost even the pretense of logic or honesty. The initial charitable foundation of Leftisim, "to give some poor guy, some rich guy's stuff" has used that to devolve into an ends-justify-the means mentality

The American Left is interested in never-ending orgasm, not much else.

[wmenorr67]

The All Americans Left are  is interested in never-ending orgasms, not much else.

FIFY

[longeyes]

Now that you mention it...   

[De Selby]

I will do you one better.  First hand account.  I have been there and talked to the Iraqi people and 90% of the ones I talked to are glad Saddam is gone and we stayed around, 8% or so are glad he is gone but rather we hadn't stayed and the other 2% either wanted him to stay in power or really didn't give a rat's ass one way or another.

If the numbers are that overwhelming, where are these people now?  Also, can you imagine how being asked the question by soldiers (who have overwhelming force at hand) might influence the answer?

[wmenorr67]

If the numbers are that overwhelming, where are these people now?  Also, can you imagine how being asked the question by soldiers (who have overwhelming force at hand) might influence the answer?

What do you mean where are those people now?

[De Selby]

Do you understand what the term 'civil society' means?

How many private charities, NGOs, and citizen's activist groups that were not actually an arm of the government operated in Ba'athist Iraq?

How is that a useful measure?  Lesotho has lots of NGOs.  

Citizen activist groups are treated like they were under the Ba'ath regime.  Arrested, tortured, and abused when engaged in protest.

[De Selby]

What do you mean where are those people now?

If its 90 percent, you would think at least a sizeable number of Iraqis would have been out there calling for the US to stay - no political group statement, no official, no protests in the streets, nothing.  You can hardly find an interview with anyone who thinks Iraq is better for the occupation.   

Don't you think that's odd if 90 percent of Iraqis were in favour?

[Monkeyleg]

wmenorr67, don't you understand? You're not the New York Times. Who's he going to believe, the NYT or your lyin' eyes?

[MicroBalrog]

How is that a useful measure?  Lesotho has lots of NGOs.  

Civil society requires the existence of citizen activist groups, both political and apolitical ones. If all public activity is reserved to the state and the ruling party, you have no civil society.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/13/what-iraqis-think-of-the-american-withdrawal-baghdad/

[Fitz]

This one was interesting:

1. It is a pleasant surprise for us that the Americans are leaving. God willing, things will be better because the Americans are the only excuse that the terrorist groups, Al Qaeda and the others, have to continue. They are behind all the sectarian conflicts.

Yes... I'm sure the terrorists will calm down once we leave

 



I won't weigh in on this other than to say:

I saw first hand, in my AO, improvement of Iraqi life post-saddam. I saw first hand the destitute, poor, and oppressed have some opportunities for the first time in their lives.

Many many different things have been said about the worth of the war in general, and I can't speak to that. But I can say that, what my unit did in our area, made a definite positive concrete contribution to Iraqi quality of life. We helped people.

[wmenorr67]

If its 90 percent, you would think at least a sizeable number of Iraqis would have been out there calling for the US to stay - no political group statement, no official, no protests in the streets, nothing.  You can hardly find an interview with anyone who thinks Iraq is better for the occupation.   

Don't you think that's odd if 90 percent of Iraqis were in favour?

Because it was time for us to leave.  We stayed as long as the Iraqi government wanted us there.

[Tallpine]

I saw first hand, in my AO, improvement of Iraqi life post-saddam. I saw first hand the destitute, poor, and oppressed have some opportunities for the first time in their lives.

Many many different things have been said about the worth of the war in general, and I can't speak to that. But I can say that, what my unit did in our area, made a definite positive concrete contribution to Iraqi quality of life. We helped people.

And that was the reason for the war? 

[TommyGunn]

He said they'd helped people, not that it was the reason for the war.

[AJ Dual]

I'd love to see what a truly anonymous poll with a bit of scientific rigor would say.

Even if Saddam's goons, blew up your house, and were about to rape your wife and daughters, and cut your throat, and the U.S. came in and shot them all, and provided your family with medical care and a new house...

It's not exactly the "PC" thing in that part of the world to say much of anything that's pro-U.S., and put your name on it.

[Tallpine]

How would we feel if the Chinese came in and shot/hung all the IRS and ATF agents 

 

[Fitz]

And that was the reason for the war? 

Nope, the reason for the war was Saddam's pursuit of NBC weapons, and proof of that pursuit was found, even if it wasn't the huge stockpiles that the administration led us to believe he had.