Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander?

[charby]

Western civilization as we know it wouldn't exist without Judaism and Christianity.

Is it separate from its religions?

Modern Science was only possible due to separation of religion.

One example

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/heretical-copernicus-reburied-as-a-hero/

[fifth_column]

"Western civilization" is an ambiguous term.  It covers everything including pre-christian empires.  It's just as accurate to say western civilization as we know it wouldn't exist without animism, pantheism, druidism, judaism, islam, etc.  Heck it's even more accurate to say western civilization wouldn't exist as I know it without my parents.  I don't see the relevance.

[dogmush]

I suspect the surgical removal of religious influence from our civic culture and public sphere will either kill or permanently maim the patient.

Amorality and liberty have never been known to be bedfellows, except in the libertarians fantasy world that has never existed.

Religion =/= Morality.  IME it's not even very strongly correlated.

[Ron]

Modern Science was only possible due to separation of religion.

One example

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/heretical-copernicus-reburied-as-a-hero/

Did you even read the article?

Copernicus the Roman Catholic who considered himself to be inspired by God?

Modern science doesn't happen until the prevailing world view becomes; a rational creator created a rational universe that we can observe and understand.

[Ron]

"Western civilization" is an ambiguous term.  It covers everything including pre-christian empires.  It's just as accurate to say western civilization as we know it wouldn't exist without animism, pantheism, druidism, judaism, islam, etc.  Heck it's even more accurate to say western civilization wouldn't exist as I know it without my parents.  I don't see the relevance.

I suspect the vast majority of those who read "western civilization" understood perfectly well what I meant, your calculated obtuseness aside.

[Ron]

Religion =/= Morality.  IME it's not even very strongly correlated.

Let us leave the moral questions to scientists and politicians eh?

[charby]

Did you even read the article?

Copernicus the Roman Catholic who considered himself to be inspired by God?

Modern science doesn't happen until the prevailing world view becomes a rational creator created a rational universe that we can observe and understand.

I should have used Galileo, I had the two confused.

[roo_ster]

Modern Science was only possible due to separation of religion.

One example

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/heretical-copernicus-reburied-as-a-hero/

Hmm.  I think you meant "modern science developed in the breast of medieval christendom and would not exist without it."


Edited for not (naught?).

[Ron]

Galileo, friend of the Pope, who remained a Roman Catholic and supporter of the church his whole life?

Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centered system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favorite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centered system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, he saw his system as concerning the issue of how the Bible should be interpreted.

[Sources:] Annibale Fantoli, Galileo: For Copernicanism and for the Church (1994), M. Sharratt, Galileo (1994), M. A. Finnochiaro, The Galileo Affair: A Documentary History (1989)

[charby]

Galileo, friend of the Pope, who remained a Roman Catholic and supporter of the church his whole life?

Galileo, that was considered a heretic (and attacking the pope with his written defense) and put under house arrest for the remainder of his life because he wouldn't change his views ?

[Perd Hapley]

Roo_ster, I think you forgot a "not" somewhere in there.

Christianity wouldn't exist without Judaism. Is it a separate religion?

Of course not.

[Perd Hapley]

Galileo, that was considered a heretic (and attacking the pope with his written defense) and put under house arrest for the remainder of his life because he wouldn't change his views ?

You forgot the part where he renounced his religious beliefs.

[fifth_column]

I suspect the vast majority of those who read "western civilization" understood perfectly well what I meant, your calculated obtuseness aside.

Hmm, you have inaccurately assumed my intent.  I'm actually trying to make a point.  What the vast majority might have seen, heard, felt, or thought when they read your words is irrelevant.  I also understood what you meant when you used the term western civilization.  My point, which you've missed either unintentionally, or through your own obtuseness, I make no judgements, is that there is a larger viewpoint available.  Civilization is undeniably affected by religion.  It's also affected by numerous non-religious factors.  Your original question was whether civilization is separate from its religions.  I stand by my original answer of 'yes.'

[charby]

You forgot the part where he renounced his religious beliefs.

Wouldn't you do the same if the "leaders" of your religion harassed you like they did him?

[Ron]

Hmm, you have inaccurately assumed my intent.  I'm actually trying to make a point.  What the vast majority might have seen, heard, felt, or thought when they read your words is irrelevant.  I also understood what you meant when you used the term western civilization.  My point, which you've missed either unintentionally, or through your own obtuseness, I make no judgements, is that there is a larger viewpoint available.  Civilization is undeniably affected by religion.  It's also affected by numerous non-religious factors.  Your original question was whether civilization is separate from its religions.  I stand by my original answer of 'yes.'

Thanks for the clarification. No sense in talking past each other!

[Ron]

Wouldn't you do the same if the "leaders" of your religion harassed you like they did him?

That whole episode was every bit a political persecution as well as a religious persecution.

I am very much in favor of the separation of church and state where it relates to institutional power and/or authority.

Roger Williams is an individual I hold much respect for, my thoughts on the subject have been heavily influenced by him. 

[roo_ster]

Roo_ster, I think you forgot a "not" somewhere in there.

You are correct.  I have edited the post.

To state it more bluntly:
Without Christianity, empirical science as we know it would not exist.  Paganism of the various flavors, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. just did not and (as we see proved time & again) still do not have what it takes to foster a culture of empiricism.

As for the OP, the COTUS prohibits a national establishment of religion. 

[charby]

You are correct.  I have edited the post.

To state it more bluntly:
Without Christianity, empirical science as we know it would not exist.  Paganism of the various flavors, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. just did not and (as we see proved time & again) still do not have what it takes to foster a culture of empiricism.

As for the OP, the COTUS prohibits a national establishment of religion. 

Christianity is the only religion that allows a civilization to gain knowledge through experience? 

[Perd Hapley]

Wouldn't you do the same if the "leaders" of your religion harassed you like they did him?

Did he renounce his belief in the Catholic faith?

[Ron]

Did he renounce his belief in the Catholic faith?

heh, heh, NO!   

An inconvenient truth.

[charby]

Did he renounce his belief in the Catholic faith?

He was forced to renounce his belief that the Sun was the center on the universe and not Earth.

[Ron]

He was forced to renounce his belief that the Sun was the center on the universe and not Earth.

For political reasons.

While it is a necessary cautionary tale; to use this episode to denounce religious belief is a stretch.

The fact he remained Christian AND Roman Catholic lends credence to the view it was a political act aimed at preserving Rome's authority more than anything else.

Galileo expressed he had no conflict between his observations and his belief system.

[fifth_column]

Without Christianity, empirical science as we know it would not exist.  Paganism of the various flavors, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. just did not and (as we see proved time & again) still do not have what it takes to foster a culture of empiricism.

This is one of those statements that cannot be proven.  It's impossible to determine what would exist or not exist "without Christianity."  At least it's impossible to determine empirically.  It's just one of those "what if" scenarios that have no bearing on reality.

[fifth_column]

For political reasons.

While it is a necessary cautionary tale; to use this episode to denounce religious belief is a stretch.

The fact he remained Christian AND Roman Catholic lends credence to the view it was a political act aimed at preserving Rome's authority more than anything else.

Galileo expressed he had no conflict between his observations and his belief system.

Is it a cautionary tale about what happens when religion and politics are mixed?

[Ron]

Is it a cautionary tale about what happens when religion and politics are mixed?

Even more than the mixing of the two it is a cautionary tale about any human institution and giving it civil authority (use of force) over the individual.

That does not demand the exclusion of all religious thought, experience, wisdom, morality or tradition from public discourse or expression.