American Journalist #2 Beheaded by ISIS

[Ben]

Do we have a strategy yet?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/09/02/video-reportedly-shows-beheading-reporter-steven-sotloff-by-isis/

[SADShooter]

Wearing a controversial suit while you continue sounding weak and vacillatory doesn't count? I still say the golf intimidation is a slow burn.

[Ben]

Yeah, who woulda thunk the White House sending ISIS that #we'retellingeveryoneyour'eabigmeanie tweet wouldn't work?

[makattak]

Yeah, who woulda thunk the White House sending ISIS that #we'retellingeveryoneyour'eabigmeanie tweet wouldn't work?

Well, who could really blame them for getting it wrong? These people are SOOO last century. 14th Century even!

We can just sit back and relax, because they are clearly "on the wrong side of history."

[wmenorr67]

Plus there are people going on record that they have been briefing Obama for at least a year now on ISIS and their growing influence.  Just waiting for an attack here in the states that is ISIS related.

[SADShooter]

Well, who could really blame them for getting it wrong? These people are SOOO last century. 14th Century even!

We can just sit back and relax, because they are clearly "on the wrong side of history."

I've been thinking about it, and there is a crucial distinction between current events and previous headbutting between the West and Islam/its political entities. The historical conflicts have occurred between competing civilizations.

What we're dealing with today is a war between civilization and barbarism. There is no negotiation with someone for whom the concept of negotiation is a display of weakness. 

[makattak]

What we're dealing with today is a war between civilization and barbarism. There is no negotiation with someone for whom the concept of negotiation is a display of weakness.  

That only happens when the side offering negotiation is offering it from a position of weakness.

The West is weak. It has great military power, but lacks the will to do what needs to be done to defeat these barbarians. They recognize that weakness.

Bin Laden called us a "Paper Tiger" and though he may now be dead, he appears to have been right. We never had the will to do what was needed to defeat his ideology.

Now, we could have done it quickly with overwhelming force and wiping out all who supported him mercilessly. We did not have the will to do that.

Alternatively, we could have done it slowly by wiping out the terrorists as they popped up while preventing as many "non-combatant" deaths as possible and deposing hostile dictators while trying to build an alternative model for the less enthusiastic supporters of Bin Laden's ideology. We clearly lost interest long before that happened and thus do not have the will to do that, either.

So, we will continue to see these Godless bloodthirsty savages (for that is what they are) ignore and even taunt the West- they realize our weakness is not found in our impressive technology and soldiers. It is in the will to use them.

Si vis pacem, para bellum. We have not been preparing for war in this country. Our people have no idea what it takes to fight a war. We have prepared our military capabilities while allowing our national will to be purposely degraded. It will not end well given what will be necessary to solidify that will.  

[agricola]

That only happens when the side offering negotiation is offering it from a position of weakness.

The West is weak. It has great military power, but lacks the will to do what needs to be done to defeat these barbarians. They recognize that weakness.

Bin Laden called us a "Paper Tiger" and though he may now be dead, he appears to have been right. We never had the will to do what was needed to defeat his ideology.

Now, we could have done it quickly with overwhelming force and wiping out all who supported him mercilessly. We did not have the will to do that.

Alternatively, we could have done it slowly by wiping out the terrorists as they popped up while preventing as many "non-combatant" deaths as possible and deposing hostile dictators while trying to build an alternative model for the less enthusiastic supporters of Bin Laden's ideology. We clearly lost interest long before that happened and thus do not have the will to do that, either.

So, we will continue to see these Godless bloodthirsty savages (for that is what they are) ignore and even taunt the West- they realize our weakness is not found in our impressive technology and soldiers. It is in the will to use them.

Si vis pacem, para bellum. We have not been preparing for war in this country. Our people have no idea what it takes to fight a war. We have prepared our military capabilities while allowing our national will to be purposely degraded. It will not end well given what will be necessary to solidify that will.  

The problem with that is that it assumes military power can be used to wipe out people of that particular viewpoint, which really isnt the lesson of history, and comes with its own very considerable moral costs. 

It also tends to ignore the very real reasons why people might feel the need to back the (usually very small) number of true believers in any particular group; for example, it is surely no mere coincidence that the two main areas of Sunni fundamentalist expansion right now (Iraq and Nigeria) are going on in the two of the most corrupt countries on the planet.  It is also perhaps not surprising that they feel able to criticize democracy when the one main Islamist group to actually engage with that process - the MB in Egypt - got overthrown in a coup that resulted in thousands of deaths, with nary a peep out of the West.   Nor is it really that hard to argue in favour of any moral superiority for Western values when the media (at least in this country) have spent much of the past week
talking about the X-Factor, leaked naked pictures of various celebrities and our football clubs spending nearly a billion pounds on players. 

Of course, the real way to defeat such things is to do what we did to get rid of our fundamentalists - to educate as many people as possible, to adopt science in order to actively disprove many erroneous religious-based beliefs, and to encourage social progression towards freer, richer, less corrupt societies.  Of course not everywhere in the West did that to the same level, but the countries which did were the ones that ended up on top. 

[Tallpine]

we could have...

left Saddam Hussein in charge of Iraq and all this would never have happened 

[HankB]

Do we have a strategy yet?

Fundraising and golf.

[HankB]

The problem with that is that it assumes military power can be used to wipe out people of that particular viewpoint, which really isnt the lesson of history, and comes with its own very considerable moral costs. 

When dealing with hostiles, maybe the west can learn at least a little from the experience of the Romans who suffered mightily during their immensely costly Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Punic Wars.

Oh, wait . . .

[brimic]

There is a lesson in this-fight the sons of bitches tooth and nail to the last breath, send a few to their *expletive deleted*it god along the way if you can.  You don't see Marines being beheaded, just eloi who drive around with coexist stickers on their bumpers.

[wmenorr67]

Be more like Israel and damn the collateral damage.

[MechAg94]

Be more like Israel and damn the collateral damage.

I tend to agree.  I think the rules of engagement we have increasingly used since WWII have don't little but put our soldiers in difficult situations.  The military mission is to kill people and destroy stuff.  If they can't do that or we can't stomach that, we shouldn't send them over. 

The other questions are who is ISIS, where are they, and what would we have to do to get assets there to kill them?  If we can't clearly answer those questions, stay home. 

Also, were these the same guys that Obama and John McCain were trying to get us fighting alongside in Syria?

[brimic]

Also, were these the same guys that Obama and John McCain were trying to get us fighting alongside in Syria?

Yes. Mccain even posed for pictures with isis/isil leaders that he was helping funnel arms to.

[agricola]

When dealing with hostiles, maybe the west can learn at least a little from the experience of the Romans who suffered mightily during their immensely costly Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Punic Wars.

Oh, wait . . .

Those would be the same Romans that spent most of the next hundred years after Carthage fell consuming themselves in civil wars, domestic strife, unimaginable corruption and whatnot? 

As I said, there are costs when you want to do what they did. 

[KD5NRH]

Those would be the same Romans that spent most of the next hundred years after Carthage fell consuming themselves in civil wars, domestic strife, unimaginable corruption and whatnot?

Well, at least our government has a proven template to follow.

[HankB]

Those would be the same Romans that spent most of the next hundred years after Carthage fell consuming themselves in civil wars, domestic strife, unimaginable corruption and whatnot? 

As I said, there are costs when you want to do what they did. 

I don't think Carthage's fate was actually the cause of Rome's internal problems . . . but let's see . . . we don't currently have a civil war, but we've already got domestic strife . . . and corruption that would make a Roman blush. It would be nice if we could eliminate an external threat (Rome had Carthage, we have ISIS et.al.). And though we don't have hostile elephants crossing the Alps, we do have a serious border problem at the Rio Grande . . .

Fortunately, we don't have to worry about a dynasty in our leadership; unlike the Romans where the Emperor's office became a family affair, one or a few families won't be running our government.

Oh, wait . . . 

[agricola]

I don't think Carthage's fate was actually the cause of Rome's internal problems . . . but let's see . . . we don't currently have a civil war, but we've already got domestic strife . . . and corruption that would make a Roman blush. It would be nice if we could eliminate an external threat (Rome had Carthage, we have ISIS et.al.). And though we don't have hostile elephants crossing the Alps, we do have a serious border problem at the Rio Grande . . .

Fortunately, we don't have to worry about a dynasty in our leadership; unlike the Romans where the Emperor's office became a family affair, one or a few families won't be running our government.

Oh, wait . . . 

I disagree - all great nations need a great rival or they end up going a bit daft.  To take your own country for example, when the USSR was around you enjoyed considerable progress on a variety of fields and went to the Moon; since then you have developed HBO and elected Presidents that were addicted to women, buffoonery and golf.

[HankB]

I disagree - all great nations need a great rival or they end up going a bit daft.  To take your own country for example, when the USSR was around you enjoyed considerable progress on a variety of fields and went to the Moon; since then you have developed HBO and elected Presidents that were addicted to women, buffoonery and golf.

Hmmm . . . history may record Obama as a great rival to the USA . . .

It bothers me that when our nation was in its infancy with a total population smaller than NYC today, we found men like Washington and Jefferson to elect as President. Today, with a population of well over 300 million, we get . . . 

[tokugawa]

Eventually we will be forced to respond in total disproportion, after say NY, DC, and LA go up in smoke.  There will come a time when we pull out ALL the stops. As in world wide thermonuclear attacks to totally eradicate Islam. Probably include bio and chemical attacks as well. This is what happens when we don't deal with stuff as it arises. I figure a few billion will die, mostly innocents of course, just like in Dresden and Nagasaki- won't make any difference at that point.
 Or we may get lucky- the Russians or Chinese may do our dirty work for us.
 Or we may get really lucky and see them (sunni) do it to them (shia) -the Iranians must be putting in triple time on their pet nuke project right now- their number one nightmare must be that ISIS gets hold of a loaner nuke from Pakistan or somewhere.
 Lot of wild cards out there, this will not be a nice ride no matter what.

[Ben]

I disagree - all great nations need a great rival or they end up going a bit daft.  To take your own country for example, when the USSR was around you enjoyed considerable progress on a variety of fields and went to the Moon; since then you have developed HBO and elected Presidents that were addicted to women, buffoonery and golf.

There's a lot of truth there. And it hurts. Especially the part where we kicked the USSR's ass in the space race, then had to start begging the Russians for rides.

[wmenorr67]

Hmmm . . . history may record Obama as a great rival to the USA . . .

It bothers me that when our nation was in its infancy with a total population smaller than NYC today, we found men like Washington and Jefferson to elect as President. Today, with a population of well over 300 million, we get . . . 

Rise of the special interests and lobbyists.

[Hawkmoon]

Of course, the real way to defeat such things is to do what we did to get rid of our fundamentalists - to educate as many people as possible, to adopt science in order to actively disprove many erroneous religious-based beliefs, and to encourage social progression towards freer, richer, less corrupt societies.  Of course not everywhere in the West did that to the same level, but the countries which did were the ones that ended up on top. 

And how do you educate people who do not wish to partake of your version of education? How do you lead people who reject any science that contradicts their fundamentalist beliefs as immoral to adopt science?

These people are not (by civilized standards) sane or rational. They are rational only within their own, twisted frame of reality. They are not even thugs -- they're just bloodthirsty savages. The west needs to start taking them out in serious numbers starting yesterday, be cause every day we dawdle they get more arms, bigger arms, and more fresh recruits.

[MechAg94]

Rise of the special interests and lobbyists.

And the welfare state.