More fun for medical practitioners buried in the stimulus?

[Boomhauer]

Look, how about we just don't have the gov't involved at all?

You really don't want them deciding your health care. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. It's a wonder that most gov't employees are intelligent enough to breathe. The people in Idiocracy are way smarter than most gov't employees.

Remember how during the Civil War surgeons would just wantonly amputate limbs and such? That's what gov't health care would be like. Exactly like.

[lone_gunman]

You really don't want them deciding your health care. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.

I would completely agree that the best system is one that does not involve the government.  I agree completely that  you don't want the government making your health decisions for you.  However most people want the government to take care of them.  That cat is out of the bag and is not going away.  It really should come as no surprise to people that if you take the government's money, they are going to want to decide how it is spent.  The bank execs who took bailout money have discovered this with Obama's proposal for salary caps.  Taking the government's medical benefits will result in the same thing:  the government will want to control decision making.

[makattak]

OK I see what you are saying.  I guess you also think that if I have $20,000 and want to buy a new car, I have a choice whether I want to by a Hyundai or a Bentley? 

I have seen nothing to suggest that anyone has plans to make the government the only provider of health care in the US.  Insurance companies will still be there, and private pay is also an option.  The plan is to simply limit what services are provided at government expense.  The government has been cutting benefits for years, and this is just an extension of that.

You're right, they wouldn't take away people's right to pay for healthcare... at first.

Secondly, you may not have a choice between a Hyundai or a Bentley, but you do have a choice between a Hyundai, a Chevy, a Ford, a Toyota, a Scion, a Saturn, a Honda, a Chrysler, a Dodge, a Mercury...

There are LOTS of different plans at many different prices. Simply because you cannot afford the MOST EXPENSIVE plan doesn't mean you don't have options and choices. If one plan does not cover what you need, you may need to INVESTIGATE and find one that will.

But why should I do that? Nanny Government can do it all for me!

[zahc]

If you have $20,000 to spend on a car, i have the option of building a car and offering it to you for your consideration. When the government is the only provider of cars, you will have to take what they give you and they do not accept competition. I hope you like whatever it is, because that's what it's going to be, no matter how inefficient, ugly, and expensive it turns out to be.

[Monkeyleg]

The government has royally screwed up too many things to give them any control whatsoever of health care. If the people who took over the Mustang Ranch brothel can't make money running that, you know that they're going to be over their heads running health care.

As with so many governmental programs, Daschle's may start as being an option, but will eventually be required.

Looking north to Canada, I always think of what would have happened to my father if the US had universal health care in 1990. My father had quintuple bypass surgery at age 73. Under the Canadian system he would have been denied, even though he lived another 18 happy years after the surgery.

But why all this talk about Daschle? Why isn't the man in jail?

[Boomhauer]

But why all this talk about Daschle? Why isn't the man in jail?

Because he's a......Democrat!

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

We want fewer people standing in the way of receiving the best possible health care, not more.  We want to make it easier and more accessible, not add layers of bureaucrats who have the power to deny want you want or need.

Honestly, why would we want to make it harder for us to get the treatments we want?

Adding a layer of government bureaucrats who can limit what treatments you receive is not a smart idea.  Not if your priority is getting the best treatment you possibly can.  

[makattak]

We want fewer people standing in the way of receiving the best possible health care, not more.  We want to make it easier and more accessible, not add layers of bureaucrats who have the power to deny want you want or need.

Honestly, why would we want to make it harder for us to get the treatments we want?

Adding a layer of government bureaucrats who can limit what treatments you receive is not a smart idea.  Not if your priority is getting the best treatment you possibly can.  

Precisely. That's not their priority.

Their priority is every gets healthcare. The same healthcare. The same CRAPPY healthcare.

That's the point of socialsim- equality by bringing everyone down to the same crappy level.

[lone_gunman]

So is everyone here that is opposed to involving the government in health care going to refuse Medicare benefits and just pay cash for everything when they turn 65?

[MicroBalrog]

So is everyone here that is opposed to involving the government in health care going to refuse Medicare benefits and just pay cash for everything when they turn 65?

Do you want to bet that this is precisely what I'll do?

[AZRedhawk44]

I have seen nothing to suggest that anyone has plans to make the government the only provider of health care in the US.  Insurance companies will still be there, and private pay is also an option.  The plan is to simply limit what services are provided at government expense.  The government has been cutting benefits for years, and this is just an extension of that.

Except for that whole pesky notion that Canadian citizens cannot pay cash for treatments that are covered by government insurance, in order to get higher quality versions of the same treatment or faster treatment.  The socialist logic behind this is that "those who can afford better will muscle their way through the system with money, causing longer waits for those who can't afford to play by those same rules."

Yet, foreigners can come in to Canada and do exactly that, if a particular specialist in a given field is desireable to seek him out in Canada.

Once we have a government program, just wait.  Single payor mandates will come next.  If the government covers a procedure, watch for 1 of 2 things to happen:
1.  Private carriers will drop all those procedures from their offerings, turning into augmentary insurance, or:
2.  Government will mandate that private carriers are predatory and must be regulated out of existence.

And... when you have a single payor system where Doctors are prohibited from accepting alternate payment, it's just a matter of time until Doctors are turned into the feeble wrecks now known as teachers.  Procedure pay will be lowered, standards will be lowered, private practices will be discouraged in favor of centralized administration. 

Would you go into medicine under those conditions?

[lone_gunman]

Would you go into medicine under those conditions?

No I would not.  But that is not what is being suggested now, and what is happening in Canada has no bearing on what happens here.

The government wants to cover more people for health care.  Both parties want this.  So far, the Republicans have been more successful than the Democrats at advancing this.  In order to provide coverage to more people, with essentially the same amount of money, they will need to cut benefits.  This is really all Daschle has said.  With the money saved by not providing futile care to the terminally ill, they hope to provide more care to healthier people who have a long productive life expectancy.  At this time it would be of no benefit for the government to refuse to allow you to purchase your own health care with your own insurance or money.

[Stetson]

No I would not.  But that is not what is being suggested now, and what is happening in Canada has no bearing on what happens here.

The government wants to cover more people for health care.  Both parties want this.  So far, the Republicans have been more successful than the Democrats at advancing this.  In order to provide coverage to more people, with essentially the same amount of money, they will need to cut benefits.  This is really all Daschle has said.  With the money saved by not providing futile care to the terminally ill, they hope to provide more care to healthier people who have a long productive life expectancy.  At this time it would be of no benefit for the government to refuse to allow you to purchase your own health care with your own insurance or money.

They aren't providing anything though.  They want to take more from you and I, in the form of taxes, to provide this.  All "they" are is a conduit for money, from you and I, to those who can't or don't want to provide their own.

My mom has been a nurse for almost 50 yrs.  28 of those years as a Homecare/Hospice nurse.  She and I talked about it last night...if this passes she will retire.  The agency she works for will probably fold because of that.  Yes, she is that much a part of it.

[makattak]

No I would not.  But that is not what is being suggested now, and what is happening in Canada has no bearing on what happens here.

Ahhhh... perfect.

Yes, I know this hasn't worked anywhere else, but WE can do it better. Ignore all those examples of failure! We have the knowledge! We are the ones we were waiting for!!!

[De Selby]

Ahhhh... perfect.

Yes, I know this hasn't worked anywhere else, but WE can do it better. Ignore all those examples of failure! We have the knowledge! We are the ones we were waiting for!!!

Works just fine here in Australia-at least that's what the doctor I saw today told me, and that's what the employees uniformly say. 

Because of the success of the Government system, you can buy really nice private healthcare for roughly 70 dollars a month.  That sends you to private clinics, covers major injuries, and supplements your payment share for major illnesses should you have to go to the government hospital.

This is definitely the system to copy, if we're talking comparisons.

[makattak]

Works just fine here in Australia-at least that's what the doctor I saw today told me, and that's what the employees uniformly say. 

Because of the success of the Government system, you can buy really nice private healthcare for roughly 70 dollars a month.  That sends you to private clinics, covers major injuries, and supplements your payment share for major illnesses should you have to go to the government hospital.

This is definitely the system to copy, if we're talking comparisons.

Ah, yes. As I recall, there is government price controls for medicine, et al. in Australia, no?

I wonder if all these socialized countries realize that they've been leeching off the market in the United States that drives research and new medicines.

I also wonder what will happen when they kill the golden goose. (i.e. the United States becomes a euro-socialist state like them.)

[Nick1911]

So is everyone here that is opposed to involving the government in health care going to refuse Medicare benefits and just pay cash for everything when they turn 65?

And why exactly would I do that, considering that I'm being forced to pay for it either way? 

[lone_gunman]

And why exactly would I do that, considering that I'm being forced to pay for it either way?

Would you opt out of Medicare if you could?  Before you answer, you might want to check on what it costs to have private insurance as your primary insurance after age 65.  Medicare is not perfect, but most seniors could not afford an alternative.

[roo_ster]

Ah, yes. As I recall, there is government price controls for medicine, et al. in Australia, no?

I wonder if all these socialized countries realize that they've been leeching off the market in the United States that drives research and new medicines.

I also wonder what will happen when they kill the golden goose. (i.e. the United States becomes a euro-socialist state like them.)

Dingdingding, we have a winner!

The USA is the last place on Earth where a significant number of drugs are developed.  Canada's and Europe's drug companies have withered away due to price controls.  The USA pays the development cost not just for the USA, but for thei entire world.

If we start price controls here, we can expect drug innovation to stop butt-cold.

[AZRedhawk44]

Dingdingding, we have a winner!

The USA is the last place on Earth where a significant number of drugs are developed.  Canada's and Europe's drug companies have withered away due to price controls.  The USA pays the development cost not just for the USA, but for thei entire world.

If we start price controls here, we can expect drug innovation to stop butt-cold.

^^Quoted for truth.

I will admit that Europeans are more accepting of experimental surgical procedures than Americans are... but Americans love their experimental and newly released drugs much more than Europeans.  You can kiss your new drugs goodbye.

[Boomhauer]

Would you opt out of Medicare if you could?  Before you answer, you might want to check on what it costs to have private insurance as your primary insurance after age 65.  Medicare is not perfect, but most seniors could not afford an alternative.

Hell yes I'd opt out of Medicare. As well as social security. But that will never happen. Gotta keep the Ponzi schemes going...

[MicroBalrog]

Would you opt out of Medicare if you could?  Before you answer, you might want to check on what it costs to have private insurance as your primary insurance after age 65.  Medicare is not perfect, but most seniors could not afford an alternative.

If my plans work out, I'll be employed with a college. Their health insurance policies are glorious.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Would you opt out of Medicare if you could?  Before you answer, you might want to check on what it costs to have private insurance as your primary insurance after age 65.  Medicare is not perfect, but most seniors could not afford an alternative.

Of course I'd opt out.

[Blakenzy]

Hmm, so docs may be forced to prescribe a disposable, single shot .22 for those elderly "useless" patients?

[Balog]

Of course I'd opt out.

While dancing and singing. Then I'd request the thousands of dollars that've been stolen from me back.