Author Topic: Something to think about  (Read 12994 times)

charby

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2014, 09:41:47 PM »
So, it would be OK with you if the USA outlawed the practice of Islam, Sikhism, and Zoroastrianism?  The law is the law and religious beliefs should not matter if our elected representatives so legislate in the charby-verse.

Where/how in God's green earth did you construe that?

If a business takes advantage of the benefits that government gives them (tax advantages, etc), then they also need to abide by the laws whether they feel it agrees or disagrees with the dogma of their religion.

How would you feel if all religious institutions lost their not for profit status/non profit status and had to start paying income and property taxes? Also means your tithing is not tax deductible any more.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2014, 10:44:05 PM »
Quote
If a business takes advantage of the benefits that government gives them (tax advantages, etc), then they also need to abide by the laws whether they feel it agrees or disagrees with the dogma of their religion.

I'm starting to see the nature of your error.

So basically a cost of doing business is to subjugate your religious beliefs to government.
Any other basic liberty we need to surrender in order to insure the continued benevolence of our government?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

charby

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2014, 10:54:50 PM »
I'm starting to see the nature of your error.

So basically a cost of doing business is to subjugate your religious beliefs to government.
Any other basic liberty we need to surrender in order to insure the continued benevolence of our government?

A business is not a person, it is a thing or entity.
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Ron

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2014, 11:44:56 PM »
All of life is currently incorporated or in contract with government.

Your employment, your money, your marriage, your children, your freedom to move about using the common mode of conveyance and yes even your church/place of worship.

We don't "own" much of anything in reality, it is all subject to the whims of government.  

Natural rights are soooo passé.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2014, 11:47:33 PM »
So you do believe that the cost of engaging in business is the loss of rights. Gotcha. In other words unless you are a wage slave to a government sanctioned "entity" rights don't exist.

I'm thinking you are deliberately or otherwise discounting the constitutional source of your beloved government's authority.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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TommyGunn

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2014, 11:50:16 PM »
A business is not a person, it is a thing or entity.
Cute, specious.


"A thing, or entity" but one run by people.  Back to square one.   :police:
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Ron

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2014, 11:58:04 PM »
So you do believe that the cost of engaging in business is the loss of rights. Gotcha. In other words unless you are a wage slave to a government sanctioned "entity" rights don't exist.

I'm thinking you are deliberately or otherwise discounting the constitutional source of your beloved government's authority.

Rights don't exist at all, regardless of your relationship to government.

The word rights has been co-opted to be synonymous with privileges.

It is through the bastardization of language and the abandonment of natural rights/rights endowed by our creator that liberty has been lost.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2014, 12:38:29 AM »
Where/how in God's green earth did you construe that?

If a business takes advantage of the benefits that government gives them (tax advantages, etc), then they also need to abide by the laws whether they feel it agrees or disagrees with the dogma of their religion.


Are you talking about Hobby Lobby? If so, when did they agree to follow the new health care law, in exchange for a tax break?

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charby

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2014, 08:00:04 AM »

Are you talking about Hobby Lobby? If so, when did they agree to follow the new health care law, in exchange for a tax break?

Shades of "you didn't build that."

Did I mention Hobby Lobby? Um, No.
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charby

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2014, 08:07:44 AM »
I expect better argument from you.

Ok, if the Christian church xyz is excluded from providing birth control for its employees, then should be let Muslim mosque xyz practice Sharia law over US law because that is what the church believes?
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makattak

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2014, 08:10:33 AM »
Did I mention Hobby Lobby? Um, No.

Ok, if the Christian church xyz is excluded from providing birth control for its employees, then should be let Muslim mosque xyz practice Sharia law over US law because that is what the church believes?

As everyone in this thread already knew, that was the decision that put the burr under your saddle.
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Ron

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2014, 08:24:49 AM »
Requiring owners of a corporation to provide a service that they object to on moral grounds is the same as institutionalizing sharia law?    :rofl:



 
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

roo_ster

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2014, 08:38:36 AM »
Where/how in God's green earth did you construe that?

I read your words and applied their plain meaning. 

"...religious beliefs should not matter when it comes to law."

Plain meaning being that religious beliefs are subservient to law and where the two clash, law will prevail.  Forced provision of abortifacients against one's religion differs from prohibition of that religion's practice only in degree, not general principle.

Quote
If a business takes advantage of the benefits that government gives them (tax advantages, etc), then they also need to abide by the laws whether they feel it agrees or disagrees with the dogma of their religion.

How would you feel if all religious institutions lost their not for profit status/non profit status and had to start paying income and property taxes? Also means your tithing is not tax deductible any more.

Relief from taxation is not a "benefit" any more than a mob deciding not to loot a store guarded by its armed owner is a "benefit."

Also, not only does your post expose a lack of understanding of the first amendment and freedom of conscience, but it reveals a lack of understanding of power expressed in the COTUS.  That being power only respects other power.  (It takes opposing power to limit power.)

In the COTUS, a very circumscribed set of powers is divided into three top level parts with at least two counterbalances.  The first counterbalance being the states and their powers and the second being the vast civil realm where the gov't has no legitimate authority.  Since the Roman empire crumbled in the West, the church was the greatest civil power that acted as a counter to gov't power.  It was the only corporate entity with the juice to put a check on unbridled gov't power and provide a modicum of liberty untrampled by gov't.  The church fought for its tax exempt status because it knew that if it could be taxed by gov't, it would become absolutely subject to gov't, no matter any other written or unwritten agreements.

Statists do not see dispersed, decentralized power as a feature, but a bug to be squashed or an obstacle to be overthrown on the path to their objective.

I would caution against letting your antipathy for Christianity and Christians blind you.  Because today it may be Christianity getting buggered by gov't.  But there is room enough in the barrel for all...and tomorrow it will be your faith (or particular lack of faith) that gets it good & hard.

Ok, if the Christian church xyz is excluded from providing birth control for its employees, then should be let Muslim mosque xyz practice Sharia law over US law because that is what the church believes?

Here is the thing you just don;t get: participation in a religious org or an org run by religious folks is voluntary.  Adherents can leave.  Employees can find work elsewhere and the org has no authority to coerce them.  Your/gov't's impositions are mandatory and carry with them implied violence that persistent refusal to submit will result in agents of the gov't shooting citizens in the face.
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brimic

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2014, 08:38:40 AM »
Last time I checked we are a not a theocracy, so religious beliefs should not matter when it comes to law.

I think you fail to see that at times.


Lets just move down an item or two on the BOR and see how this applies.

Your belief is self-protection/preservation should not matter when it comes to law....
Your belief in protection from illegal search and seizure should not matter when it comes to law....
etc, etc.....

Makes perfect sense now.
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charby

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2014, 08:42:23 AM »
As everyone in this thread already knew, that was the decision that put the burr under your saddle.

No it wasn't. My two burr is the polarization and how people hide behind their religion.
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charby

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2014, 08:43:54 AM »
Requiring owners of a corporation to provide a service that they object to on moral grounds is the same as institutionalizing sharia law?    :rofl:



 

If you allow one group to behave no matter how small or how great according to their religious beliefs, then you should allow other groups the same privilege.
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charby

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2014, 08:52:38 AM »
Lets just move down an item or two on the BOR and see how this applies.

Your belief is self-protection/preservation should not matter when it comes to law....
Your belief in protection from illegal search and seizure should not matter when it comes to law....
etc, etc.....

Makes perfect sense now.

What does freedom of and freedom from religion have to do with the rest of the BOR?

One should be able to worship how they choose, but they also shouldn't push their religious views on others to the point of persecution. Your religion/beliefs should not impose upon anyone else but yourself.
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brimic

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2014, 08:55:00 AM »
What does freedom of and freedom from religion have to do with the rest of the BOR?

One should be able to worship how they choose, but they also shouldn't push their religious views on others to the point of persecution. Your religion/beliefs should not impose upon anyone else but yourself.

Persecution? I don't think that word means what you think it means.
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charby

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2014, 09:01:43 AM »
Persecution? I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Persecution: hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.

I know exactly what it means.

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charby

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grampster

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2014, 09:42:43 AM »
There is no moral equivalence with respect to abortafacients and sharia. 

As a matter of fact they are opposites.  Abortafacients imposes violence upon a defenseless infant human at worst and a potential human at best.  Many believers are opposed to that and as the SCOTUS ruled, it is wrong for a government to mandate violence if it is rejected by religious beliefs.  That opposition is supported in the BoR in the 1-A.

Sharia is a religious law that has a political element and supports, even mandates violence and it's misogynist supporters are good with that. 

You use a very bad example.

It is fair to say that the only power the government has is the power to say NO by the will of the people.  When the government starts demanding YES, then government needs to be brought up short.
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brimic

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2014, 09:45:58 AM »
Persecution: hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.

I know exactly what it means.



So in your opinion, Hobby Lobby was persecuting people because they refused to provide a drug which can be bought over-the-counter for about $50?
I thought you were going to actually talk about PERSECUTION, like where isil/isis is currently beheading women and children because of their religeon.

 [popcorn]
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charby

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2014, 10:12:03 AM »
There is no moral equivalence with respect to abortafacients and sharia. 

As a matter of fact they are opposites.  Abortafacients imposes violence upon a defenseless infant human at worst and a potential human at best.  Many believers are opposed to that and as the SCOTUS ruled, it is wrong for a government to mandate violence if it is rejected by religious beliefs.  That opposition is supported in the BoR in the 1-A.

Sharia is a religious law that has a political element and supports, even mandates violence and it's misogynist supporters are good with that. 

You use a very bad example.

It is fair to say that the only power the government has is the power to say NO by the will of the people.  When the government starts demanding YES, then government needs to be brought up short.

Its baby steps to theocracy, you give a little now and later its full control. Think about the path of all the firearm laws, everyone one of them had some sort of appeasing attribute, then bam holy cow the anti's seem to be in charge.
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brimic

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2014, 10:30:54 AM »
If you allow one group to behave no matter how small or how great according to their religious beliefs, then you should allow other groups the same privilege.
So fighting government  overreaches of power is baby steps towards theocracy?
I see...
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charby

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Re: Something to think about
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2014, 10:39:18 AM »
So fighting government  overreaches of power is baby steps towards theocracy?
I see...

Depends which battles you fight, if you fight to establish your religious beliefs on others (no matter the intentions) then yes.
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