Working for free to build new business; how much?

[Monkeyleg]

In addition to working on my for-profit (or is it somewhat-for-profit?) website, I'm shooting freelance for a studion here in town, and also doing freelance search engine optimization work for a company in Michigan.

The work for the photo studio hasn't been as much as the owners or I expected; I get the spillover when their full-time guy is busy. Seeing as how he's not as busy as he was two years ago, that's understandable.

However, they do ask me to come out for free and work with him on testing for projects that are upcoming, and ones where they think he'll be booked on other jobs. For example, today I was working with him casting models for Jockey. (Yeah, I know, it's rough: I spent all day shooting gorgeous swimsuit models who were wearing nothing but bra's and panties).

Problem is, these tests usually result in no work for me, as they understandably try to juggle the schedule so that he shoots the jobs. Why pay me when he's on staff?

With the SEO job, I've been spending a lot of time (unpaid) going through a very advanced stats anyalyzer program. He wants me to demo the program to an existing client, one that will be willing to pay for additional SEO services.

The idea behind this is that he and I will be building a separate division in his company for SEO, which I will handle completely.

The problem with this, though, is that I'm again working a lot for free, with the expectation of my investment of time paying off.

Seeing as how I haven't made this month from any of my ventures, I wonder if this is the smartest route to take. Bear in mind, when it comes to making money, I could screw up a free sandwich.

Opinions very much welcome.

[Fly320s]

You're working for less than free.  You're spending money on gas, food, camera equipment and maintnance, car maintenance, etc.

At the very least the company should reimburse you for your direct expenses.  If you are just doing this job to gain experience and to get a full-time photography job, then you need to decide whether the cost justifies the benefit.  

I, for one, would give up a little pay for a lot of underwear models, but that's just me:P

[280plus]

I spent all day shooting gorgeous swimsuit models who were wearing nothing but bra's and panties).

Damn you!! Meanwhile I spent all day sweating out a broken restaurant A/C and the crabby cook who went ballistic because her floor was starting to sweat and get slippery. It wasn't for free though.

I'd ask do you TRULY believe this will pan out? I've had too many people promise me the moon and the stars to get what they've wanted or needed. Once they did the promises were all but forgotten. If you're spending your time helping them they should be courteous enough to reimburse you at least something. I get people all the time that think I should work for nothing. As much as I HATE to turn down a job, if the price is not right, I will. You got to take care of Numero Uno. I'd say something to them about it. And if they can't see their way to throwing you a few bucks I'd start looking around for something else. Right now they're "having their cake and eating it too".

Good luck!

[...has left the building.]

So you have absolutely no agreement as to when, how, and how much you will get paid? Do you have any kind of ownership agreement with the SEO gig?

[grampster]

Dick, the idea behind free market capitalism is that there is a demand and a means to fulfill it.  Milton Friedman said..."you can only make money if you can provide someone with something he or she is willing to pay for."  If you continue to offer a service to fulfill a demand and don't charge anything, you are defeating the very thing you are trying to do...make money.  You need to promote cooperation.  You are in fact diminishing the value of what you do by doing it for free.

It is absolutely imperative that you provide buyer with his "best deal."  That does not mean free.  That is cooperation between buyer and seller.  Everybody else is a competitor.  The only competition you have at this point is yourself.

[Monkeyleg]

Thanks for the replies.

Fly320's, I'm not just starting out in photography. I've been in the field professionally since 1978 and, up until the last year or so, had an excellent reputation. Maybe I still do. I had a lot of national high-paying accounts as well. Had my own studio, staff, etc. Before Snap-On went PC, I shot all of their girlie posters. (I also did much more "respectable" shooting as well).

But I burned out, and wanted to get out.

The deal I struck last year with the photo studio was that they would guarantee me five days of work a month at minimum. Nobody--not the owners or me--thought that their sales people couldn't bring in at least five days.

Well, we were all wrong. I haven't had five days of work in a single month since I started.

As for the SEO thing, I'm starting to get a bad feeling about this. The deal was that I was to be paid X amount of dollars per client per month. But I'm spending far too much time doing advance work for clients that I don't even know will come on board.

What's worse is that all of this advance work means that I'm devoting less time to optimizing the existing clients' sites. At some point, all that's going to crumble if they don't see improved results.

As I said before, I'm terrible at business. That's why I hired sales people to represent my photography. I'm a soft touch, an easy mark.

[Monkeyleg]

I think I need to add a bit to what I posted above. To those who are still paying attention, I'm  very grateful.

As a photographer, I'm very, very good. Students who graduate from colleges in the state know my name. Their instructors show the students my work. I didn't know this until last year. I thought the students were just trying to butter me up to get some freelance assistant jobs.

As for the SEO work, I'm also very, very good at that. I've spent five years learning how to get sites on the first page of the major search engines.

I've also tried to go out and solicit my own freelance SEO work. The problem is that the only sites that I can show are gun-related sites. For you and me, it shouldn't matter if the search term is "New York gun shops" or "checker plate." I rank #1 for NY gun shops, and I've gotten one of my clients to #1 for checker plate (one of many search terms they wanted, and for which I've given them page #1 results in just two months).

But showing gun-related sites is a turn-off.

And I'm a very, very bad salesman.

Just a little added info.

[garrettwc]

The deal I struck last year with the photo studio was that they would guarantee me five days of work a month at minimum.

Is this deal in writing? If so, enforce it. The fact that they are not selling enough is their problem not yours. They should either give you five jobs that are going to their staff guys or pay you the equivalent day rate.

As for the SEO thing, I'm starting to get a bad feeling about this. The deal was that I was to be paid X amount of dollars per client per month. But I'm spending far too much time doing advance work for clients that I don't even know will come on board.

Again, what was spelled out in writing? What kind of advance work are you doing? Are you supposed to get paid for the SEO specifically, or is it a whole package thing? When consultants contract for a company they usually have a "scope" document that says "for X dollars of compensation, I will do exactly this, and only this. Any thing else is outside the scope of the agreement and requires a new deal and bid"

As a photographer, I'm very, very good. Students who graduate from colleges in the state know my name. Their instructors show the students my work. I didn't know this until last year. I thought the students were just trying to butter me up to get some freelance assistant jobs.

As for the SEO work, I'm also very, very good at that. I've spent five years learning how to get sites on the first page of the major search engines.

Then you are getting ripped off. Put a stop to it. You obviously have the skills to be an industry leader in your ventures. Why are you nickel and diming to line the other guys pockets.

And I'm a very, very bad salesman.

Then get good. Your livelihood depends on it. It's more a science than an art. You can learn to sell if you apply yourself to it the way you have in these other things.

Before Snap-On went PC, I shot all of their girlie posters.

Did I mention you're my hero

[Monkeyleg]

garrettwc, thanks for your replies.

To answer two of your most pertinent questions: no, I did not receive a written contract.

I'm one of those imbeciles who still believes in a handshake agreement.

Unless and until I can find another company to do photography/SEO work for, I don't have any alternatives. At least not as far as my myopic vision can see.

This is serious, though. We're going to come up short on next month's bills unless something changes.

I wish the topic of guns weren't so touchy a subject. I can ask anyone to do a search for "New York gun shops," and they'll find my Gunshopfinder.com site #1 out of over 30,000,000 results. Search for "Remington rifles."

Do a search for "CZ pistols." The Shooters Shop has been #1 for years. I got them there, as well as for many other search terms.

I use the same techniques for "checker plate" as I do for "CZ pistols." It doesn't matter what the term is, only how the page is constructed and promoted.

I know without a doubt that the owner of the hosting company is taking well over 50% of the SEO profits. It may be more like 75%.

But he's the sales guy. I'm not. He has the servers with the expensive tracking software packages. I can't afford them. He goes out and finds the customers. I have a real hard time with that. He make the sale; I seldom do.

So, I guess what I need to do is tell him that all of this "advance" work can't be for free, and that he has to build the cost into whatever project he's quoting going forward.

That's not hard to say.

As for me being your "hero" with regard to girlie posters, I'll take this thread a bit off-topic. I hope just for a minute, or I won't get any good career advice.

The young women I've had the pleasure of working with are professional swimsuit/T&A models. Their "assets," if you will, are either home-grown or expensive.

And they know why they're on the shoots. There's no question.

There's also no touching. Any adjustments to whatever clothing is done by a female stylist.

But, because they're professional T&A models, I can talk to them pretty openly. "Pull your butt in." "Stick your chest out."

Whatever. They know why they're there.

It might surprise you to know that my wife was on the set for most of those shoots as the studio manager, and ran whatever errands needed to be done. There were never any lingering comments about this girl or that girl.

Once they're on set, they're no different than a Briggs and Stratton motor, or a microwave.

It's my job to make them look the best they possibly can, and I can't do that job if I allow any emotions or feelings to enter into the picture.

That's all it is: a job.

[Guest]

Wow, and here I thought that *expletive deleted*it was objectifying.

Maybe you could just get a job? It seems like you're forever trying to find a way to make a million. Most of us mere mortals do the 8-5 thing..or 8-8 in some cases and we don't get rich and we don't buy yachts and no one knows our name but its a life, you know? I know, you "used to" but that was then, this is now.

[Guest]

You know, pushing paper for a manufacturing company doesn't exactly fit my self image, either, but it does keep the kids in cereal and running shoes. I do the stuff I want to do outside of work hours.

[Firethorn]

+1 to the point that working for free only cheapens you.  Yes, it can make it easier to 'get into the industry'.  After all, it's difficult to get labor cheaper than 'free'.  In some positions(internships?) the majority of the time the moment the 'free' worker actually wants to get paid, well, they find a new intern.

Ask yourself, am I worth more than $XXX?  If so, ask for it.  It sounds like replacing you might not be easy.

[Bogie]

If you give someone a "sample"for free, they assume that is all that it is worth, and want it for the same price in the future.

[Greg L]

I wish the topic of guns weren't so touchy a subject. I can ask anyone to do a search for "New York gun shops," and they'll find my Gunshopfinder.com site #1 out of over 30,000,000 results. Search for "Remington rifles."

Do a search for "CZ pistols." The Shooters Shop has been #1 for years. I got them there, as well as for many other search terms.

So minimalize it right up front with new people.  "One of my hobbies is shooting.  Because of that interest I naturally gravitated towards something related when I started doing SEO.  The results of which are that "x" company has been listed #1-5 for "y" years, which as you know is an eternity on the internet.  Now let me show you what I can do for you"

As long as who you are talking to isn't a hard core anti, you've just defused everything by letting them know that you started with something familiar to you - not that you are looking for the nearest bell tower.

[Greg L]

Another thing rolling around in my mind while typing the other.

However, they do ask me to come out for free and work with him on testing for projects that are upcoming, and ones where they think he'll be booked on other jobs.

If they aren't giving you your 5 paid days a month there is no reason for you to be out helping them sell other business.  For them it's great, they don't have to pay you anything & get all your experience.  For you otoh, you are out a day's productivity, gas & wear & tear on the vehicle, & wear & tear on your equipment.  Not exactly a win/win situation.

We actually went through something similar (sort of) a few years ago.  My wife is a consultant in a software industry.  We had a relationship with a reseller where they would go out & sell the package & offer training.  My wife would then be subcontrated in to do the training (at a discount to her normal hourly rate but there were no sales costs to us (finding the prospects/demo/proposal preperation/etc) involved so it worked out ok.  On one particular really big sale $100k+ they asked her for her help with the sales process (she can do a much better demo/explain things better).  She agreed (verbally) provided that she got 25-33% of the comission if it went though to a sale.  That was agreed to (also verbally) by the reseller who promptly stopped doing anything towards the sale.  She eventually sold the product to this other company & when she asked for her portion of the commission (which probably should have been higher by that time as the others had stopped doing anything) & was told "Oh, we'll make sure that you get a few training hours out of it".  After going round & round for a month we finally sent them a very detailed itemized invoice for close to $5k for her work on the sales process (mainly time invested - but that time could have been spent being productive elsewhere, but there was several hundred dollars in actual expenses that she had).  We've never heard from these people again.

Now the point of that long story was to bring home to you that you don't need to be around these people who have so little consideration for your time/talent.  They will continue to leech off of you as long as you allow them to.   You need to find yourself busy the next few times they want you to come out & "help" (knowing you that "help" is probably doing most of the work yourself).  Eventually they'll either start to pay you or stop calling.  Either way it can't be any worse than it is now.

[garrettwc]

Unless and until I can find another company to do photography/SEO work for, I don't have any alternatives. At least not as far as my myopic vision can see.

Then you need to get your vision corrected. Stop starting a sentence with a statement of why you can't and ask the question of how you can? That will get the creative process flowing. I did a google on SEO and got like 1.6 million hits. There's obviously a market for it. Who says you have to find another company, why not start your own?

Also, don't confuse sales with marketing. They are related but not the same. It is marketing that piques their curiousity, that makes them want to know more and ultimately contact you. You can get a local college kid who's studying it to help you, or get one of the Guerilla Marketing series books. Sales is simply closing the deal once you get them to the table, by that point it shouldn't matter what the site you are showing is, what should matter is you can produce results.

So, I guess what I need to do is tell him that all of this "advance" work can't be for free, and that he has to build the cost into whatever project he's quoting going forward.

That's a good first step. If he goes for it, then you're better off in the long run. If he balks, you are still better off because you now know his intent was "something for nothing" all along.

This is serious, though. We're going to come up short on next month's bills unless something changes.

Now we get to the crux of the problem. This will require a more immediate response on your part.

I'm assuming from what I read that you don't have any savings built up. That makes the situation worse and only adds to the dread that is preventing you from acting.

So first we deal with the immediate problem. You need to find a job, any job, that pays a regular income. I know it's hard to settle for a job that's less money, and/or below your skillset. I went from being a dept. head for a lending institution to working as a cashier in a stop and rob in a matter of a week due to corporate downsizing. Did I hate the job? Sure. I live in a small town and several of the customers were people I knew. But it kept $$ coming in until I could recover and start fresh.

You can also consider a yard sale, or putting some junk up on eBay. That will get cash flowing so you can pay bills and eat, from that you need to build up an emergency fund of $500-1000. Next step is to build up about 6 months of expenses in a savings account that you don't touch unless you need it. This will give you room to breath while you work on your business ventures part time. Once your business is going strong and you have that savings put back, you can work full time on your own interests.

I wish you luck.

P.S. I was being tongue in cheek with the "hero" comment. I know being a staff photog. is hard work, and there's nothing really glamourous about it. It's just another shoot. But you know, as I do, that every kid who ever looked through a viewfinder dreamed of photographing Playboy bunnies, or getting a news shot on the cover of Time.

[BozemanMT]

Totally agree
I can sit at home and watch the TV and make no money, i don't need to work hard to make no money.

[Monkeyleg]

Thanks again for all the replies.

To address a couple of points made above:

We do have money set aside, so I can dip into that for next month. I just hate doing so.

Barbara, this has nothing to do with self-image. Photography is not glamorous. Neither is SEO; in fact, it's very tedious. And, for Gunshopfinder.com, I'm basically doing telemarketing. How glamorous is that? And I'm not expecting to make a million dollars, just a decent income. Something more than what I'm making now. The tongue-lashing in your posts took me by surprise.

The saleable skill sets I have are photography and SEO. If I were to take another type of job, which would have to be something at near-entry level, I wouldn't be making any more than I am right now.

As it is now, I do have a couple of jobs. The problem is getting the owners of the companies to deal with me in a fair manner.

This morning I fired off an email to the owners of the photo studio. In it I addressed a few of my concerns, and asked that we set up a meeting next week to discuss those concerns. I think they're going to have to bite the bullet from time to time and let me shoot the jobs I tested for, instead of just giving them to their staffer if he's not busy. It's either that, or I find another studio to shoot for.

As for the SEO job, I need to have a sit-down with the owner and lay out some new fee structures so that I'm not spending a lot of free time helping him make the sales. After all, he's getting the lion's share of the SEO fees in large part because he's supposed to be the sales guy.

On the subject of starting my own SEO outfit, that's something I've obviously tried to do, and would like to do. As I build relationships with the clients I'm working with at this current outfit, I can ask them for testimonials about my work. Or possibly even take them with me.

Please keep the critiques of my ideas coming. They've been very helpful.

[Monkeyleg]

Barbara, just one more comment about your "and no one knows our name" point.

One of the essentials for photography is to get people to know your name, and keep that name in front of them. As a photographer, I'm a product, something to be sold, just like any other product. The same as a box of Wheaties.

The fact that a lot of people in the business know my name means that: a) I've been doing good work the last 28 years; and b) I've had good sales people out there repping me.

[Guest]

But the question is, what do you want? You're in a business you know is dying. You complain about finances. You're swinging at windmills. Yes, you used to be somebody. Yes, you used to have a lot of stuff. So what? That's then, this is now. You can't have both. If you want to retire, you're in all likelihood going to have to take a job doing something mundane and boring. It's not failure, it's life.

[...has left the building.]

Dick,

A good businessman always keeps three things in mind at all times:

-How to raise revenues
-How to lower expenses
-How to manage risk

In the past, my ambition blinded me and I confined myself to only looking for the highest revenues. I had little regard for expenses and no regard for risk. At times I did find areas of high revenue but looking back, they were too risky and expenses were too high. Now, I try to balance all three to an acceptable level. I think you may be experiencing what I was: revenue myopia. Building your businesses is going to require a hard look at all three areas.

[Monkeyleg]

Barbara, I'm fully aware that the photography industry is dying. That's why I took on the SEO job. Also, I realized a few years ago that I simply would not be able to continue to handle the physical demands of photography.

However, there is still photo work to be had while I move into doing more SEO work. I just need to get the studio I'm freelancing for to either give me more days per month, or find another studio that will.

Do I complain about finances? Yes. However, I am currently making as much money as I would if I were to take a generic job at a factory or in an office.

I know that it's not generally considered proper to discuss financial details, but in order to answer you, I guess I'll have to breach etiquette.

This year I will make roughly $40,000. The studio pays me $500 a day. The internet company pays me $600 a month per client, for which I do about 12 to 15 hours a month of work each.

Did I make more than $40K a year in the past? Hell, yeah. Lots more. But, as I mentioned in an email to you, my wife and I live very frugally, so we're able to adjust to the lower income.

As the internet company brings in more SEO customers through the new division, I obviously expect to make more money through them. If the new division doesn't work out, then I need to explore other avenues.

The criticisms of my current situation (which, by the way, I really do appreciate) seem to fall into two camps. One is that I'm letting two employers take advantage of me by having me spend time on things that I'm not paid for. Absolutely and positively true. I'm being used as a doormat, and I have to assert myself.

The other criticism, Barbara, seems only to be coming from you, and I don't understand it. Your position--and please correct me if I'm wrong--seems to be that I should abandon photography and SEO, and just get a job doing something. That doesn't make sense, since I'm making as much right now as I would get working doing "something" for some company. Again, please correct me if I'm misreading your comments.

If your last post was simply to address my point about my being known, then, yes, you're right. I did have a name, and I did have a good income. So did a lot of other photographers. And most of us are finding ourselves in the position of being nothing more than devalued commodities. That's just one reason why I want out.

Daniel, I just caught your last post while I was typing this one. I failed to lower expenses by moving out of my 5,000 square foot studio back in 1998 or so and into a smaller one. However, given the current photography market, I'm certain that moving alone would not have saved my business. The photographers I know in the area who I consider my competition have cut expenses severely, but are still just hanging on. One I know is $500,000 in debt, although he does have a couple of years of equity in a small building that he bought.

The advantage I have now, if I can get the studio I'm freelancing for to come back to the table with a guarantee of work, is that there's no money going out.

All of this may be boring for those reading the thread, but it's helpful to me. Please keep any comments coming.

[...has left the building.]

Dick,

Daniel, I just caught your last post while I was typing this one. I failed to lower expenses by moving out of my 5,000 square foot studio back in 1998 or so and into a smaller one. However, given the current photography market, I'm certain that moving alone would not have saved my business. The photographers I know in the area who I consider my competition have cut expenses severely, but are still just hanging on. One I know is $500,000 in debt, although he does have a couple of years of equity in a small building that he bought.

The advantage I have now, if I can get the studio I'm freelancing for to come back to the table with a guarantee of work, is that there's no money going out.

So the main component that you're not addressing is that owning your own photography business is HIGHLY risky in today's market. That industry-wide, expenses may be down, but so are revenues. IMHO, $40K/year is NOT worth the amount of risk, and stress from the risk, that you're enduring. It is awesome that you're recognized but if you can't even sleep at night, who cares? There comes a point where the risk of doing something can be overwhelming. I'm not trying to focus on the negatives but don't miss them by repeating positives over and over.  

And I think what Barbara is trying to say is that: past performance doesn't equal future results, that you can still do photo/SEO on the side while maintaining a "normal" job, that a lot of people have talents but have to work normal jobs, and that life throws us all curveballs (we can't be successful in every venture we try).

[Guest]

Pretty much what Daniel say, only less tactfully.

But, as ever:

[Monkeyleg]

Daniel, at this point, I don't have a photography business. And I wouldn't have one, given the risk that you recognize.  I work part-time for a studio that hires only one freelance photographer: me. That's one of my part-time jobs.

If I haven't already made it clear, let me respond to your point about past performance versus  future results: I'm not going to make the kind of money in photography that I did just a few years ago.

But all this goes back to my original questions. This studio needs me to shoot when their salaried staff photographer is booked. I need to get an agreement from them that, in exchange for my freelancing for nobody but them, I get at least X number of days of work per month.

Is that a reasonable or unreasonable idea?

And, as for the internet company, I need to get some sort of agreement that any sales presentation work I do outside of my regular job functions must be compensated for.

Is that a reasonable proposal?

Daniel, in my above post I mentioned that I'll make probably $40K this year. Not a lot, but it's close to what most "normal" people around here with normal jobs make.

IOW, I'm already "normal." (Well, many folks would disagree).

If I take on a generic job doing "something" for a something company, I'm reducing the hours that I can devote to SEO work, and pretty much ruling out any photography work. (All of this assumes that I can convince the owners of both companies to fairly compensate me for work that I do outside of our mutually-understood prior agreements).

Doing something for a something company will pay what? I'm not familiar with going rates for non-skilled workers. I only know what my neighbors make, and they make about $40K a year for jobs that require little or no education. Factory or warehouse work. Cops, teachers, and pharmacists obviously make much more.

One thing I left out of the above post where I detailed what I'm paid is that the studio I freelance for pays me $250 a day to shoot new photos for my portfolio. The sales reps are on my tail for new work to show, but I'm at a point where the new photos I shoot just aren't resonating with the buyers. So, the lack of response bothers me, and that feeds on itself.

I've been posting on this thread much too long. Here's the questions, as distilled as I can make them:

I have an agreement with a photo studio that they will pay me $500 per day to come out and shoot for them. However, they haven't had enough work to provide me with a steady income stream. They've also had me come out and work on testing for new clients, but those testing days are for free. Is it in my best interest to sit down with them and negotiate an arrangement where I'm guaranteed a certain number of days from a photo assignment that I helped test for? Or that I should be given at least X number of days per month, regardless of whether or not their salaried staff shooter is busy, just so that I can continue to be available to them?

I have an agreement with an internet outfit that I will work on their clients' sites for $600 a month per client, doing all that I've learned about SEO. Unless the owner of the company is completely hosing me, I see a lot of growth potential here. But I must insist on being paid for work outside of the SEO realm. Reasonable or no?

I also have another business--Gunshopfinder.com--which is bringing in money. Thanks to my SEO skills, the site brings in enough to pay the mortgage and utilities, and then a bit more. And the revenue from the site is growing, although at a slower pace than I expected (if I can't make the phone calls because I'm doing free work for someone else, that's why).

The photography industry is dying, but with the right agreement, I can continue to generate income from that while I grow the SEO and Gunshopfinder.com revenues.

Or, I can go do a generic job. And hope that I get a raise every year. (Yeah, that's the risk-taking side of me being snide).

I've laid out my finances in more detail than probably anyone else on APS ever has, because I thought I needed to do so in order to get thoughtful responses.

And, so, there's the full box of information, quandaries and questions.

Any other replies are much appreciated.

BTW, Barbara, I'm glad that you are an internet friend. I certainly wouldn't want you as an enemy.