What drugs is Eugene Robinson taking?

[Monkeyleg]

Over the weekend voters in Europe tossed out many leaders who were trying to impose austerity measures to stave off financial ruin. Rather than accept that they'd spent themselves broke, the voters chose new leaders who promised more free stuff.

Here in the USA, Eugene Robinson had a column in which he warned Republicans that their push for cutting spending could cost them elections as well. He thinks that it's possible to keep spending, but still balance the budget. The welfare state must continue, at least according to him.

What sort of drugs do you have to take to view the situation in Europe as he does? His column is here.

[Perd Hapley]

A guy at work asked me if I would favor an additional dollar of taxation, if it went to paying down the deficit. I basically said no, we've given them enough money, and they haven't used it to pay down the debt yet, have they? Then something like, "We'll know they're serious when they actually defund totally unnecessary stuff like PBS."

It's stunning that the government's tendency (compulsion?) to mismanage money has become so perfectly obvious, yet it is still credible to suggest that the supply of money in the U.S. should be taken from the people who know how to make money, and given to those most likely to waste money. 

[De Selby]

Over the weekend voters in Europe tossed out many leaders who were trying to impose austerity measures to stave off financial ruin. Rather than accept that they'd spent themselves broke, the voters chose new leaders who promised more free stuff.

Here in the USA, Eugene Robinson had a column in which he warned Republicans that their push for cutting spending could cost them elections as well. He thinks that it's possible to keep spending, but still balance the budget. The welfare state must continue, at least according to him.

What sort of drugs do you have to take to view the situation in Europe as he does? His column is here.

Here's the problem: "they" didn't spend that money or get rich off of it; their governments arranged with the ECB to do that in a way that led to enormous fortunes for bankers and executives.   Voters rightly don't feel any ownership of that debt - it wasn't spent on them.

Europeans would now like to use monetary policy and spending to soften the blow of the crisis on the majority, and also to ensure that their economies don't further collapse.  In other words, they want their financial institutions to be accountable to voters for their interests rather than to financial institutions.  Accountability to market theories and banks is how the Euro system works, it works on conservative (ie, cut spending and deregulate markets), and today's economies are the result.   

Europe isn't in the situation it's in now because of social spending.  It's there because it let the banks set its financial and monetary policies through the Euro system.

[TommyGunn]

Here's the problem: "they" didn't spend that money or get rich off of it; their governments arranged with the ECB to do that in a way that led to enormous fortunes for bankers and executives.   Voters rightly don't feel any ownership of that debt - it wasn't spent on them.

Europeans would now like to use monetary policy and spending to soften the blow of the crisis on the majority, and also to ensure that their economies don't further collapse.  In other words, they want their financial institutions to be accountable to voters for their interests rather than to financial institutions.  Accountability to market theories and banks is how the Euro system works, it works on conservative (ie, cut spending and deregulate markets), and today's economies are the result.   

Europe isn't in the situation it's in now because of social spending.  It's there because it let the banks set its financial and monetary policies through the Euro system.

[MicroBalrog]

Well he is right, the Euro WAS a stupid idea.

Also, European austerity is a myth anyway.

[Jamisjockey]

The largest portion of the us budget goes to social spending. I'd imagine the European budgets are similar.  You can't take that much money out of the economy without consequences.
Deregulation? What deregulation? Legalized plunder, encouraged through crony capitalists is not deregulation.

[makattak]

The largest portion of the us budget goes to social spending. I'd imagine the European budgets are similar.  You can't take that much money out of the economy without consequences.
Deregulation? What deregulation? Legalized plunder, encouraged through crony capitalists is not deregulation.

And since we pay for Europe's defense, they have miniscule defense budgets. (Unlike the U.S.)

[Monkeyleg]

Don't try arguing with DeSelby. He throws out blanket statements that sound authoritative, but you need to do a hour or so of research in order to completely refute what he says.

Socialized medicine, mandatory six weeks of vacation, retirement from civil service in one's 40's or 50's...things like that can't be the cause of economic collapse. It has to be a secret and sinister banking conspiracy.

In this sequel of "The International", DeSelby revives Clive Owen's Interpol agent Louis Salinger character, battling against corrupt bankers who are stealing everyday Europeans' vacation time through so-called "austerity measures", and selling the time to wealthy Germans looking to prolong their life expectancy.

[Jamisjockey]

Don't try arguing with DeSelby. He throws out blanket statements that sound authoritative, but you need to do a hour or so of research in order to completely refute what he says.

Socialized medicine, mandatory six weeks of vacation, retirement from civil service in one's 40's or 50's...things like that can't be the cause of economic collapse. It has to be a secret and sinister banking conspiracy.

In this sequel of "The International", DeSelby revives Clive Owen's Interpol agent Louis Salinger character, battling against corrupt bankers who are stealing everyday Europeans' vacation time through so-called "austerity measures", and selling the time to wealthy Germans looking to prolong their life expectancy.

I think DS believes that mandatory six weeks of vacation, 30 hour work weeks and huge public sector hiring are a good idea.

[Monkeyleg]

I think DS believes that mandatory six weeks of vacation, 30 hour work weeks and huge public sector hiring are a good idea.

They're great ideas, except to the 14 people in each country who pay for all of that.

[longeyes]

Real social welfare requires both a society and true caring.  Increasingly, we lack both.  We substituted government and escapism.

[Scout26]

Yeah, he got his hands on the really good stuff today...

Wow !!  "We have to grow the economy, but first we have to punish all those who can grow the economy !!"

That's a great plan !!  I can't think of any reason why it shouldn't work.....

[TommyGunn]

Well he is right, the Euro WAS a stupid idea.

Also, European austerity is a myth anyway.

Yeah....that (sadly) seems to be the general concensus of opinion. 
I always believed the euro was a bad idea.

But I also think many european nations tax & spend much too freely.  And long term, that isn't a good thing.

[HankB]

A guy at work asked me if I would favor an additional dollar of taxation, if it went to paying down the deficit.

Fed.gov is more likely to spend $1.50 for each additional dollar they take in rather than pay down the deficit, let alone retire part of the national debt.

Here's the problem: "they" didn't spend that money or get rich off of it; their governments arranged with the ECB to do that in a way that led to enormous fortunes for bankers and executives.   Voters rightly don't feel any ownership of that debt - it wasn't spent on them.

There's actually a grain of truth in here - look back at Iceland. When some Icelandic banks (with substantial foreign ownership) went under due to bad loans (mostly to foreigners), the Icelandic government proposed raising Icelander's taxes to make good on those losses, mostly to the benefit of foreign investors. Icelanders - who had no prospect of ever personally seeing any profits if the banks had been successful - didn't accept that they should personally make good the losses. So they defeated the bailout scheme resoundingly, since higher taxes on the behalf of foreigners would have exacerbated the resulting economic hardship.

[MillCreek]

^^^ I was just going to quote the Icelandic example.  I wonder how their economy is doing right now.  I recall reading that many of the financial speculators had to go back to cod fishing and what not.

But put me in the camp of I don't think that austerity measures, in and of themselves, can solve the European or American economic woes.  Judicious control of expenditures and judicious increases in revenues combined are a good thing.  But in today's political climate, I don't think it has a chance.

[Waitone]

Someone in Europe and in the future the US will have to define "austerity measures."  I will hazard a guess the elements will include high taxes, reduced social spending, and increased regulation of commercial life; will not include financial institution taking a sizable reduction in principal owed (aka "haircut).  You wanna pay down debt?  Cut principal owed; don't mess with extended terms for lower rate.  Reduced principal = reduced interest = reduced need for taxes = more money for the private sector = less demand for regulation.

It'll never happen short of a total currency collapse.

[Hutch]

It'll never happen sort of a total currency collapse.

Coming to an economy near you.  Don't miss it!

[Ron]

What drugs is Eugene Robinson taking?

Hopium

[De Selby]

The largest portion of the us budget goes to social spending. I'd imagine the European budgets are similar.  You can't take that much money out of the economy without consequences.
Deregulation? What deregulation? Legalized plunder, encouraged through crony capitalists is not deregulation.

It's more complicated than that because the money pays for things - the medical industry receives enormous sums of money from Medicare, and no doubt a significant amount of the consumer products business comes from those social security checks.   It's simply not true to say that money is taken out; it's distributed to different places.

A financial crisis led to the European budget problems, not a resources crisis.  Who regulated the financial industry in the decades prior to the European collapse, and whose policies did they implement?   I'd sure love to see some evidence of the ECB promoting welfare spending for anyone other than banks, which get interest free loans and other perqs not available to the average joe from the Euro.

Now that the financial and monetary policies failed, it's only fair that the banks who benefitted most handsomely from those policies bear the costs first.

[De Selby]

Don't try arguing with DeSelby. He throws out blanket statements that sound authoritative, but you need to do a hour or so of research in order to completely refute what he says.

Socialized medicine, mandatory six weeks of vacation, retirement from civil service in one's 40's or 50's...things like that can't be the cause of economic collapse. It has to be a secret and sinister banking conspiracy.

In this sequel of "The International", DeSelby revives Clive Owen's Interpol agent Louis Salinger character, battling against corrupt bankers who are stealing everyday Europeans' vacation time through so-called "austerity measures", and selling the time to wealthy Germans looking to prolong their life expectancy.

The problem with your theory on social spending is that entitlements and socialist policies have been rolled back in Europe since the 70s, not stepped up.  Then there's Scandinavia, but who needs to ask why those actual socialist economies aren't failing? 

We should just keep repeating the mantra tha socialist welfare causes collapse, as if the banks don't get welfare payments that cost money (and unlike socialist welfare, don't house or feed people).

[MicroBalrog]

^^^ I was just going to quote the Icelandic example.  I wonder how their economy is doing right now.  I recall reading that many of the financial speculators had to go back to cod fishing and what not.

The Icelandic economy?

Why I'm glad you asked.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/iceland-the-broken-economy-that-got-out-of-jail-2349905.html

Iceland experienced one of the most severe recessions in the world when the markets crashed in 2008. Economic output fell by about 12 per cent over two years. But the latest report on Iceland by the International Monetary Fund shows that growth is resuming. GDP is expected to increase by a relatively healthy 2.5 per cent in 2011. The Icelandic public finances are on a sustainable path too with government debt projected to fall to 80 per cent of GDP in 2016.

Latest GDP growth estimate I could find is 3.5%, unemployment at 7%.

Now that the financial and monetary policies failed, it's only fair that the banks who benefitted most handsomely from those policies bear the costs first.

Silly De Selby, didn't you know capitalism is for poor people, socialism is for banks?

[De Selby]

Silly De Selby, didn't you know capitalism is for poor people, socialism is for banks?

And that is precisely my problem with all of the "blame welfare!" business: I blame welfare too, I just think that the billionaires living in mansions because of welfare need to be outed first.

[gunsmith]

We give Ireland millions every year.
Ireland has a good standard of living, why do we need to give them foreign aid?
Lets look at the policies of Ireland.
You get the dole super easy there, you can put your dole money into a bank or credit union and borrow against it. 90% of the folks on the dole work off the books to get more money that doesn't get taxed.
Two weeks a yr you can travel to someplace like Portugal for your vacation ( from not working ) and legally collect the dole there.
....oh you say you're illiterate? no wonder you cant find a job, so thousands of people sign X on the paperwork as they wander around collecting the dole at every post office in driving distance.

We are funding this as well as our own waste

[MicroBalrog]

Let's be rational here.

The Troubled Asset Relief Program comprised 700 billion United States Dollars.

The idea this doesn't contribute to the national debt (and remember this is not the only such program) is madness.

Hundreds of billions dollars are spent each year by governments on either side of the fund in subsidies, bailouts, etc.

The idea that the big corporations do not benefit from the modern state, have not lobbied for it, asked for it, begged for it, whimpered for it - flies in the face of everything we know.

[AmbulanceDriver]

It's more complicated than that because the money pays for things - the medical industry receives enormous sums of money from Medicare, and no doubt a significant amount of the consumer products business comes from those social security checks.  

Ok. First off,  I'd like to see some proof of your second statement there.  Because I'm calling BS on that one.

Now,  to address your first statement.  It's true that the medical industry receives millions in Medicare payments. But other than a small minority, most healthcare providers actually LOSE MONEY on Medicare patients.  Because the government sets the reimbursement rate for the services provided, completely ignoring what it actually costs to provide said services.  The vast majority of providers that I have spoken to would stop taking Medicare patients in a heartbeat if they could.  And those that can already have.  Let's take my industry as an example.  The reimbursement rate for a 911 ambulance transport from Medicare is at best $300 - $400, and usually less in urban areas.  Ours is closer to $200. Oh,  and we are prohibited by law from charging the balance to the patient. Medicaid is actually even worse.  If we ran only Medicare or Medicaid patients, we'd be out of business.  Instead, to stay in business, we have to charge a higher rate to patients with other insurance, or even no insurance in order to subsidize Medicare and Medicaid patients.  Except, whoopsie, our rates are capped by the contracts we sign with the municipalities in which we operate as the 911 service provider.  I work for one of, if not the, largest private ambulance services in the country.  And we are laying people off because we are losing so much money on Medicare and Medicaid patients. 

So don't give me that bushwa that healthcare is making money on Medicare.