Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Chuck Dye on August 25, 2009, 01:46:21 PM
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A rather good article in the March 2009 The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200903/air-force) included this photo, "the last millisecond of incoming data from the doomed Iraqi pilot’s HUD, or head-up display."
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It has haunted me since.
Now it can haunt you.
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Fantastic article!
Chris
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Great article. This struck me.
Each plane consists of about 1,000 parts, manufactured in 44 states, and because of the elaborate network of highly specialized subcontractors needed to fashion its unique airframe and avionics, assembling one F-22 can take as long as three years.
Interesting there would be such variety in sourcing.
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Interesting there would be such variety in sourcing.
It's important to spread around as much pork as possible.
I'm all in favor of remaining king of the air; I also believe obliterating the Islamic terrorist savages September 12, 2001 would considerably have lowered the cost of remaining king of the air.
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Great article. This struck me.
Interesting there would be such variety in sourcing.
It has been suggested this is done to make it harder for CongressCritters to kill projects.
"You can't cancel that or 3000 people in 44 states will lose their jobs!"
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It has been suggested this is done to make it harder for CongressCritters to kill projects.
"You can't cancel that or 3000 people in 44 states will lose their jobs!"
Yeah, my first thought was "pork!" But still, interesting such specialized parts would be available in such diverse locations.
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Yeah, my first thought was "pork!" But still, interesting such specialized parts would be available in such diverse locations.
It might be that they're only available in diverse locations because no single area has the expertise for all of it. Kind of like how global markets and manufacturing work, but on a smaller scale.
Chris
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It might be that they're only available in diverse locations because no single area has the expertise for all of it. Kind of like how global markets and manufacturing work, but on a smaller scale.
Chris
True. I suppose I'm just thinking of the states and thinking "Really, they make super advanced jet parts there?" :P
I also like this line, which seems like something out of a guerrilla's handbook.
“If you can’t match your enemy’s technology, you can always subtract from it,” says Wayne Waller, a Virginia contractor who designs radar systems for the F‑15.
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That whole plane could be built in one building, it's just built in 44 states for pork. Like building half a sub in CT and half in VA and then putting them together.
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Are we talking about building the jet in chunks in 44 states or that the individual parts are sourced from 44 states? If the latter, while I'm sure there's a large measure of pork thrown in, I doubt you could come up with a factory that controlled all aspects of manufacturing of the F22 from raw materials to finished jet. That doesn't even happen in private industry.
Track down the sources for all components of an average car. I suspect they'll come from a number of sources as well.
Chris
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The first thing I thought of when I saw the incoming AIM-7 photo was to wonder if the missile has a proximity or contact fuse. I would have thought it would have detonated already with a proximity fuse; that sucker was pretty close.
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Back in the day, I recall reading that NASA chose Apollo contractors all over the country to build Congressional support and minimize budget cuts.
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Pork seems to be the leading scapegoat in this thread, but we in the military were always leery of sole-source contracts, too. ;)
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Yeah, I'd expect maybe one or two dozen sources. 44 just seems... deliberately spreading it around.
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Yeah, I'd expect maybe one or two dozen sources. 44 just seems... deliberately spreading it around.
Meh, capitalist systems tend to prefer specialization. It's cheaper that way.
I'd imagine there's a fair number of parts that would make no sense to produce in house. Electronic components come to mind (Microcontrollers, capacitors, wire, LCD screens, etc.)
Or are we talking parts specifically built for the plane?
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Do read the article linked in the OP. Well worth your time.
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Actually, look to the links to the right of the article, there are more good things. Despite a generally left leaning, I have never regretted my subscription.
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I have no doubt that the skills necessary to build a machine such as the F-22 are spread around 44 states because the skills are so highly specialized that this is the only way to make it work. The kinds of talent that are needed to build such a machine are so varied, so specialized, and so arcane that they cannot possibly exist all in the same place.
My particular specialty was reverse engineering bytecode that runs on PowerPC virtual machines. To my knowledge, there are only two people in the world that specialize in this sort of thing - me and the man I worked for. I didn't do any work for the F-22 specifically (at least I don't think I did, they didn't bother to tell me where the tools I built were going to be used), but this sort of super arcane technology and only-kind-in-the-world expertise is the norm for all sorts of weapons systems like the F-22.
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i'm going to throw out a thought from Waaaay out in left field, just to see how close I can get it to the plate.
During WWII both Germany and Japan essentially maintained their rate of production of aircraft despite the best efforts of both strategic and tactical bombing on a near-constant basis. They were able to do that by dispersing the production of parts and sub-assemblies to facilities scattered about the countryside. Thus, even if the bejesus was bombed out of one ballbearing plant there were several others that just kept cranking out ballbearings. What caused the downfall of the German and Japanese airforces was not a lack of parts or complete airframes, but of pilots.
Now, here's the oddball idea from left field - that DOD has intentionally scattered the production of parts as a means of preventing sabotage.
I take a size 52 jacket that buttons up the back, if anyone is inclined to think I need to be fitted for one. =D
stay safe/
skidmark
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I have no doubt that the skills necessary to build a machine such as the F-22 are spread around 44 states because the skills are so highly specialized that this is the only way to make it work. The kinds of talent that are needed to build such a machine are so varied, so specialized, and so arcane that they cannot possibly exist all in the same place.
Agreed, plus think of the strategic implications. A potential enemy couldn't destroy a single complex and completely halt production, others would pick up the slack.
Also it's pork.
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Isn't the Raptor the program Obama just killed?
Maybe if we just buy the improved F-15s the Israelis have made...
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I've had days like this before.... =|
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It's a misconception that the current administration "killed" the F-22.
F-22 Raptors will still continue their production run, but it will cap at 187 fighters from the previous 194. This will be partly offset by the cheaper, single-engine F-35 in all its multi-service variants.
We learned a lot about dispersal of war materiel manufacturing and basing, thanks to Pearl Harbor, Germany, Japan, etc.
It left a lasting impression on some, including President Eisenhower, who thought that the Autobahn was a darned good idea for moving troops and equipment cross-country in time of war. Hence the Interstate.
And those long straight stretches of interstate in the Great Plains sans trees, utility poles, etc? Part of SAC's SIOP, and still very much part of the game plan.
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And those long straight stretches of interstate in the Great Plains sans trees, utility poles, etc? Part of SAC's SIOP, and still very much part of the game plan.
Now that is interesting, and something that I did not know before. Kind of like what Sweden does.
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It left a lasting impression on some, including President Eisenhower, who thought that the Autobahn was a darned good idea for moving troops and equipment cross-country in time of war. Hence the Interstate.
The Hanford Nuclear Reservation, out in the middle of nowhere in the southeast corner of Washington state, had an extensive highway system built from the very beginning of construction back in the early 1940's. This was because Hanford was a key part of the Manhattan Project, and President Roosevelt thought that the workers and residents of the Tri-Cities should have a fighting chance to evacuate if the crude reactors of the time went kablooey or were bombed. Even today, the Tri-Cities has very, very good freeway access, more so than one would expect for an urban area of the same size.
I have not checked, but I wonder if Oak Ridge is the same way.
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The Hanford Nuclear Reservation, out in the middle of nowhere in the southeast corner of Washington state, had an extensive highway system built from the very beginning of construction back in the early 1940's. This was because Hanford was a key part of the Manhattan Project, and President Roosevelt thought that the workers and residents of the Tri-Cities should have a fighting chance to evacuate if the crude reactors of the time went kablooey or were bombed. Even today, the Tri-Cities has very, very good freeway access, more so than one would expect for an urban area of the same size.
I have not checked, but I wonder if Oak Ridge is the same way.
Not really. Oak Ridge has about the same road access that most any town of its size has, and much of that was done in recent memory. I question whether evacuation was ever a real consideration as some of the designated routes took evacuees over such windy, narrow roads that it would have been suicide to attempt.
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Not really. Oak Ridge has about the same road access that most any town of its size has, and much of that was done in recent memory. I question whether evacuation was ever a real consideration as some of the designated routes took evacuees over such windy, narrow roads that it would have been suicide to attempt.
That is interesting. Hanford is built out in the middle of an arid plateau. The only physical obstacles are the Columbia River and some distant hills. You can build a road in just about any direction.
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And those long straight stretches of interstate in the Great Plains sans trees, utility poles, etc? Part of SAC's SIOP, and still very much part of the game plan.
How so? As improvised landing strips?
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From the Wikipedia article about the Swedish Air Force:
Expansion during the Cold War
The Swedish Air Force underwent a rapid modernization from 1945. It was no longer politically acceptable to equip it with second-rate models. Instead, the air staff purchased the best it could find from abroad, e.g. P-51D Mustangs and de Havilland Vampires, and supported the development of top performance domestic models. When the Saab 29 Tunnan fighter was introduced around 1950, Sweden suddenly had planes that were equal to the best of the Royal Air Force, Soviet Union and the U.S. Air Force.
During the 1950s the air force started to build road bases after an idea taken from Germany. The bases were ordinary highways constructed in such a way that they could also serve as landing strips. During the Cold War large amounts of money (including all that had been reserved for Swedish nuclear weapons) were spent on the Swedish Air Force and domestic airplane production. In 1957 Sweden had the world's fourth most powerful air force, with about 800 modern planes in front-line service. During the 1950s, it introduced fighters such as the Saab J 29 Tunnan, Saab A 32 Lansen and Saab J 35 Draken.
I have read articles in the journals describing emergency aircraft dispersal facilities carved into the sides of mountains in Sweden that lead directly out onto the highway/improvised runway.
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The DoD SIOP (Single Integrated Operational Plan) spelled out the use of those Interstate stretches as bomber and tanker airfield alternates. The idea was (Still is? Dunno, I'm no longer part of the Plan) that in the event Offutt, Minot, Ellsworth, etc. were eliminated in an exchange, returning aircraft could re-sortie on those stretches. Deployed ground crews would refuel, repair, re-arm, and turn the aircraft around for continued sorties, with fresh aircrew available to supplement attrition and/or fatigue.
It's a huge orchestration, and modified/renamed on a regular basis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Integrated_Operational_Plan
It was not a new concept, witness the aforementioned Swedish Air Force, as well as the seriously heavy, long, and straight roadways around the now-closed Rhein-Main AB in Germany.
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Now that is interesting, and something that I did not know before. Kind of like what Sweden does.
Was just about to mention that. Over here, the nickname for them is "flygraka", air straight I suppose you could translate it to. In a way it's a bit eerie to drive along them when you know why they are so damned straight...
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The DoD SIOP (Single Integrated Operational Plan) spelled out the use of those Interstate stretches as bomber and tanker airfield alternates. The idea was (Still is? Dunno, I'm no longer part of the Plan) that in the event Offutt, Minot, Ellsworth, etc. were eliminated in an exchange, returning aircraft could re-sortie on those stretches. Deployed ground crews would refuel, repair, re-arm, and turn the aircraft around for continued sorties, with fresh aircrew available to supplement attrition and/or fatigue.
It's a huge orchestration, and modified/renamed on a regular basis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Integrated_Operational_Plan
It was not a new concept, witness the aforementioned Swedish Air Force, as well as the seriously heavy, long, and straight roadways around the now-closed Rhein-Main AB in Germany.
Granted, I don't spend a lot of time in the western U.S., but I'd be hard pressed to identify any piece of the U.S. Interstate system that could handle a B-52, B1, or B2... Fighters, sure. But bombers? :O
The longest stretches of the Interstate system tend to be four lanes, and well divided by culverts, or trees etc. And then when you leave out over and underpasses, signage poles, light poles etc. the availible stretches are limited even further.
I wonder if there's a crew that goes out with a combat engineering vehicle and knocks every pole down for a few miles right beforehand or something...
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From the Wikipedia article about the Swedish Air Force:
Expansion during the Cold War
The Swedish Air Force underwent a rapid modernization from 1945. It was no longer politically acceptable to equip it with second-rate models. Instead, the air staff purchased the best it could find from abroad, e.g. P-51D Mustangs and de Havilland Vampires, and supported the development of top performance domestic models. When the Saab 29 Tunnan fighter was introduced around 1950, Sweden suddenly had planes that were equal to the best of the Royal Air Force, Soviet Union and the U.S. Air Force.
During the 1950s the air force started to build road bases after an idea taken from Germany. The bases were ordinary highways constructed in such a way that they could also serve as landing strips. During the Cold War large amounts of money (including all that had been reserved for Swedish nuclear weapons) were spent on the Swedish Air Force and domestic airplane production. In 1957 Sweden had the world's fourth most powerful air force, with about 800 modern planes in front-line service. During the 1950s, it introduced fighters such as the Saab J 29 Tunnan, Saab A 32 Lansen and Saab J 35 Draken.
I have read articles in the journals describing emergency aircraft dispersal facilities carved into the sides of mountains in Sweden that lead directly out onto the highway/improvised runway.
Ah, better and more sensible times. I do wonder what we have these days? I honestly don't know any more, what with all the cuts and downsizings that have taken place. IIRC, during the 70's, 80's and early 90's, if the *expletive deleted*it hit the fan we would have close to a million men at arms ready within a week or so, not counting civilians in essential roles such as doctors, nurses, police, firefighters, workers in essential industries etc. Granted, many of those up in arms would've had to do with m/96 Mausers and the variants thereof :laugh: :O.
Now, I guess I ought to be happy if we could muster up 20.000 within a year =|. I'm beginning to suspect that the Cold War is somehow still up and running, and that we are being run from the Kremlin or such =|.
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Ok, even supposing the highways are suitable for landing bombers, wouldn't you also need jet fuel and bombs and spare parts and whatnot as well? Are these stockpiled nearby? There's a lot more to an airbase than a long skinny piece of concrete...
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HTG,
Yes, and yes. ;)
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Interesting.
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HTG,
Yes, and yes. ;)
Time for an APS road trip/treasure hunt..... :cool:
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Time for an APS road trip/treasure hunt..... :cool:
Uhhh... I have no desire to experience a shooting, ESPECIALLY one likely to put me on the recieving end...
So: Goodbye boys! Have fun storming the castle!
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I have read articles in the journals describing emergency aircraft dispersal facilities carved into the sides of mountains in Sweden that lead directly out onto the highway/improvised runway.
Commies (http://www.revdisk.net/photos/commie/Bunker01.jpg) did (http://www.revdisk.net/photos/commie/Bunker02.jpg) more (http://www.revdisk.net/photos/commie/Bunker03.jpg) or (http://www.revdisk.net/photos/commie/Bunker04.jpg) less (http://www.revdisk.net/photos/commie/Bunker05.jpg) the same thing (http://www.revdisk.net/photos/commie/Bunker06.jpg).
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Drifting further into tactical and strategic dispersion I find it interesting to note that the Marines have never operationally used the Harrier for what it was built for, that is forward, improvised, airfields.
Back at the F-22, I stick to pork, no other real reason for a 44 state spread. If the people in charge were really concerned with strategic dispersion I don't think there would have been such a multiyear fight to keep all of the east coast nuclear carriers in one homeport. After much screaming, whining and pleading by the Florida congressional delegation (the same type of caterwauling that kept JFK commissioned about 10 years too long) it looks like Mayport will get one to replace the JFK. At one point my former ship, an LHA, was supposed to be the sacrificial lamb. The Navy really wanted no part of the move and it is going to cost a ton to upgrade the harbor down there to support a CVN.
Also, there is exactly one place in the world to refuel CVNs, I lived 2 blocks from it for 9 years. Not so tactical there? And yet, as I noted earlier, they also build half a sub and their buddies in CT build the other half. While enormously expensive I actually support this porking :D since by the time you need a shipyard to churn out lots of boats for a war it will be too late to whip one up from scratch. Which leads to the sad fact of thread drift that if it were not for the military, the US ship building industry would not exist. Greedy unions, lazy union workers, and onerous regulations can all revel in that national embarrassment.
But if I'm wrong about the extent of current strategic plans of dispersed forces I hereby volunteer my property to park a team's worth of M1A1s. I have excellent fields of fire and I won't even drive them....much =D
Now a long time ago we were talking about a MiG that was rather unlucky. I would like to see what the German MiGs do if they are ever in combat. I've long thought the new SU and MiG fighters would reign supreme if given to people with first world avionics packages and airborne command systems. Beautiful planes, one unlucky Iraqi pilot. Somewhere I've got a picture of a German Fulcrum on short final to our carrier, might have to scan that one and post. No, he didn't land, nor did their F-4s, sadly enough.
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They can park one of the F-35 STOVL jets in my driveway. I will wash it every week and apply the very finest Klasse All In One to keep it shiny.
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Y'all have a nice time. I didn't particularly enjoy Minot. =D
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That pic reminds me of the old joke:
What is the last thing to go through a bugs mind as it hits your windshield.....
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I have read articles in the journals describing emergency aircraft dispersal facilities carved into the sides of mountains in Sweden that lead directly out onto the highway/improvised runway.
I never knew that about the Swedes. I thought it was the Swiss.
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It was not a new concept, witness the aforementioned Swedish Air Force, as well as the seriously heavy, long, and straight roadways around the now-closed Rhein-Main AB in Germany.
Also true of Bitburg, Ramstein, Hahn, Spangdahllm, Sembach.......
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The first thing I thought of when I saw the incoming AIM-7 photo was to wonder if the missile has a proximity or contact fuse. I would have thought it would have detonated already with a proximity fuse; that sucker was pretty close.
The missile has both a contact fuse and a proximity fuse. The proximity fuse is designed to detonate the expanding rod bundle warhead next to the aircraft. The rod bundle then expands like a fan and basically cuts the aircraft in half.
The AIM-7 is a beam rider that requires continuous illumination of the target by the shooter's radar until missile impact.
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Hey look, keep yer damn planes off the interstates, ok? :mad:
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Drifting further into tactical and strategic dispersion I find it interesting to note that the Marines have never operationally used the Harrier for what it was built for, that is forward, improvised, airfields.
That's because America fights from a position of pure dominance, and combined arms, with massive C3I.
We never really needed the forward improvised airfields. In the last few examples of when we rolled in on an enemy nation-state (Iraq) we did so even faster than forward airfields could have been easily deployed.
However, it's good to have the capability. And I like that the F35 has the VTOL variant. It also provides for excellent naval dispersal of air power. We can build smaller cheaper VTOL carriers for the Marines and spread air-power away from carrier battle groups, which are nuke and exocet magnets. It also gives us much greater flexibility if we ever need to attempt another beach landing under fire where the VTOL fighters can work very closely with LCAC's, and ambphibious armor, landing craft etc. for air support, in the vein of "keep em guessing" like we did at Normandy.
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Hey look, keep yer damn planes off the interstates, ok? :mad:
Probably don't like bikes on neighborhood streets, either?
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I've worked AV8s, Helos and C130s from a stretch of road during an exercise. Loads of fun :cool:
Also took part in writing a report on selecting and creating improvised landing fields in urban areas of operation. That gave me extra credit to promotion, about 3 months before I got out :lol:
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Probably don't like bikes on neighborhood streets, either?
Neighborhood streets I don't care, busy state roads I don't like it at all. I don't want to be resposible for killing some idiot and then have to scrub them off my truck. =D
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Neighborhood streets I don't care, busy state roads I don't like it at all. I don't want to be resposible for killing some idiot and then have to scrub them off my truck. =D
Its legal, so quit your whining, but down the beer and pay attention.
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Its legal, so quit your whining...
...only if you're volunteering for the car wash.... :laugh:
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Legal doesn't necessarily mean smart... =D
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Bsides, I never hold a beer while driving. I need one hand for the wheel and one hand to cover one eye so the second set of double lines goes away. :laugh:
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Bsides, I never hold a beer while driving. I need one hand for the wheel and one hand to cover one eye so the second set of double lines goes away. :laugh:
Memo to self: beer in Camelbak.
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Even better yet. White Lightning in the camelbak, that way you also have a short range fuel supply if it runs ou (and if you have a strong engine. :D )
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The fella that invented the camelbak probably never envisioned a sailor + 100 oz of ice, rum and coke. I've seen that stunt, it's not pretty.
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geez, that's such a good idea I almost wish I was still a drunkard... :laugh:
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The fella that invented the camelbak probably never envisioned a sailor + 100 oz of ice, rum and coke. I've seen that stunt, it's not pretty.
The trick isn't using ice...it's getting the rum & coke below freezing then insulating the bladder so your body doesn't heat it up too fast...that's why I keep my booze in the deep freeze....
....I've really put too much thought into this, haven't I?.... =|
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Actually, I was thinking you have a future in the refrigeration industry. :laugh:
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The fella that invented the camelbak probably never envisioned a sailor + 100 oz of ice, rum and coke. I've seen that stunt, it's not pretty.
Or two liters of red Gatorade mixed with a liter of Vodka. That used to keep me warm back in the day when I was snowboarding.