NY court ruling: Pay debts before tithing

[Car Knocker]

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_4306822

Steven Oberbeck
The Salt Lake Tribune

 
 
Posted: 11:29 AM- A bankruptcy court judge in New York has barred some consumers going through Chapter 13 bankruptcy in that state from paying tithing and making other charitable contributions until they've paid off their credit-card companies.
 
    Although the ruling isn't expected to have any immediate impact outside of New York, it may encourage credit card companies and others who are owed money to raise the issue in other areas of the country, including Utah, said Henry Sommer, president of the National Association of Consumer Bankruptcy Attorneys.
 
    "Our nation's founding fathers who envisioned a separation of church and state never imagined that this division would be used to engorge the profits of moneylenders at the expense of churches," Sommer said.
 
    In issuing his ruling, the judge relied on the nation's new bankruptcy reform law that went into effect last October. He determined that law, supported by Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and others, took precedent over the Religious Liberty and Charitable Donation Protection Act of 1998 that allowed tithing and other charitable donations to be made by those in bankruptcy.
 
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If a person's religion required him to tithe to be a member in good standing to be eligible for salvation, would this ruling be Constitutionally challengeable on the basis that his right to exercise his religion has been denied?  Seems to me this ruling is going to be appealed forthwith.  Another impetus for appeal is that neither charity or religious organizations look too kindly upon governmental meddling with their funding.

[Guest]

"Our nation's founding fathers who envisioned a separation of church and state never imagined that this division would be used to engorge the profits of moneylenders at the expense of churches," Sommer said.

I bet our forefathers never envisioned a system in which chronic bad debtors could get bailed out of trouble by the government. They lived in a world where such people went to prison or servitude until their debt was paid.

More to the point, you dont *have* to declare bankruptcy. You could just pay your bills, or you could choose not to pay your bills and live with the debts and bad credit. If you dont like the terms of the deal, then simply dont take it.

In most cases creditors loose a hell of a lot of money when a person declares bankruptcy, they certainly arent "engorging their profits". Im sure they would much rather get the full amount that they lended out in the first place, at best they are cutting their losses.

[Jamisjockey]

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If a person's religion required him to tithe to be a member in good standing to be eligible for salvation, would this ruling be Constitutionally challengeable on the basis that his right to exercise his religion has been denied?  Seems to me this ruling is going to be appealed forthwith.  Another impetus for appeal is that neither charity or religious organizations look too kindly upon governmental meddling with their funding.

I noticed that Utah was singled out directly in the news article and then you say this

If a person's religion required him to tithe to be a member in good standing to be eligible for salvation,

Which immediately makes me think of Mormons.
They do teach thriftyness (sp?), and it's suppossed to be a part of thier life, and its an integral part of the religion.  However, here in Utah, keeping up with the jonses has been reinvented.  Everyone's got a damn camper, ATV's, two SUV's,  a boat, and other toys.  
If someone is in a religion that requires them to tithe, or hell, even if they just like giving to the Salvation Army.....well, damnit, they should have thought about that before they accrued a retarted amount of debt.
Tithing is not a debt.  Its an option.  Paying debt is not optional:  It's part of how a capitalistic society is run.  Without it, we might as well be bartering chickens.
BTW, in 2003, Utah was 3rd in the country for bankruptcy (tied with GA)
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595113204,00.html

[Car Knocker]

The Trib and the D-news both tend to put a local spin on news if they can but the Trib seems to have done a bang-up job on this story.  The Mormons, like a number of Christian churches, place an emphasis on tithing but I'm not sure (I'm not LDS) that being caught up on the tithing is essential to get through the Pearly Gates.

A lot of people seem to place their spiritual salvation ahead of their temporal responsibilities and I think this, coupled with a potential hit to church funding, will see this ruling go to the appeals process.

"They do teach thriftyness (sp?), and it's suppossed to be a part of thier life, and its an integral part of the religion."

For many, there seems to be a disconnect between their teachings and their reality; it's much like children being told not to do something - first thing, the kids go do what they were just told not to do.  We certainly wouldn't want to force anyone to exercise self-control and self-discipline.  That lack  of control fuels the high bankruptcy rate - the toys, the multitude of kids, the McMansions.

It'll be interesting to watch this develop.

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

Used to be a guy named Larry Burkett, who counselled money management from a Christian perspective.

One of the things he guided people toward is to render unto Caesar, and embraced a philosophy that G-d would honor one's financial good stewardship in paying off debts first.  Then, as you grow more financially stable, you can start a "tithe" of 2% or so, and increase it as G-d grants further blessing.  I realize this is not a true tithe, but the principle is there.

[Perd Hapley]

I think Burkett is still around.  For Christians, ten percent is a minimum.  As my preacher likes to say, "Wouldn't it be embarrassing if you went to the Judgement, and had God's money in your pocket?"  

But if you owe someone money, the money already belongs to that person.  You can't very well give it to your church or anywhere else if you've already promised it to a lender.  The same with your electric bill.  When you turned on the light switch or just had the service hooked up, you agreed to give some of the money to the power company.  So it wouldn't be ethical or Christian to give it to God; he would want you to do as you promised.  

If you spent too much on a car or electricity, you need to repent, and try to do better, so you can start paying tithe in the future.  I think that's the Christian view, anyway, not quite on topic.

[MicroBalrog]

Modern civilisation only works if people pay their debts on time, I believe this was already mentioned here.

[BakerMikeRomeo]

Speaking from the position of a moneylender:

You might think you owe those poor folks, or The Big Man, or The Man In The Big Hat money, but the law we all agreed to abide by says you DO owe ME money. So cough it up; you can pay The Big Man when the law says you and I are done.

~GnSx

[BozemanMT]

well, I do know the LDS church preaches greatly against getting into debt.
That having a debt load means you owe other people, may do things that you should not do and doesn't allow you to give your time and energy to your family instead of paying the moneylender.  There are earthly things and there are heavenly things, in the grand scheme of eternity, which is more important?  

but yes, i do find it interesting that Utah is so high in bankruptcy.  


there are two kinds of people:  those who understand how interest works and those who don't.  Those who do understand collect it and those who don't pay it.

[Jamisjockey]

well, I do know the LDS church preaches greatly against getting into debt.
That having a debt load means you owe other people, may do things that you should not do and doesn't allow you to give your time and energy to your family instead of paying the moneylender.  There are earthly things and there are heavenly things, in the grand scheme of eternity, which is more important?  

.

Taking care of responsibility is more important.

[Brad Johnson]

To not pay a debt rightfully owed is theft, plain and simple. If memory serves that particular behavior is specifically addressed somewhere in the Bible...

Brad

[Marnoot]

As mentioned, the LDS church does preach strongly against getting in debt, really for anything but a car (if necessary), education, and a house; and even among those three you shouldn't get in more than absolutely necessary. It's been more than just mentioned at each of our general conferences (bi-annual church-wide meetings where the leaders of the church speak/preach) in recent years. But like any group of people, Mormons are individuals and will do what they will.

I've seen the harm debt can do and personally avoid it as much as possible. I made it through school without debt (not always possible, and probably won't be able to make it through graduate school without loans); I use my credit card, but always pay it off before any interest attaches itself; right now the only debt I have is my car, on which I'm making more than triple the minimum monthly payment.

JamisJockey is right about alot of Utahns' keeping-up-with-the-Joneses attitude. Fortunately, my parents brought me up with more of a forget-the-Joneses-we'll-have-fun-with-what-we-can-afford attitude. While I wasn't a fan of the latter attitude as a child when I wanted to have a boat, new cars, etc., I'm ever so thankful I was raised that way now that I'm an adult. People need to learn responsibility. I wholeheartedly agree with those that have said that not paying debts is theft. Trying to find any avenue to get out of debt other than paying it off is patently dishonest.

[mfree]

If you tithe before paying a debt, then in essence you are stealing from your debtors to pay the church. If I were a religious organization I'm sure I wouldn't want some such sin moneys hanging over my head.

Unless, of course, it's about the money and not the salvation. That's a telling tale about whatever organization falls to it...

[Ron]

I don't believe in tithing.

Pay your debts off before you give your money to charity.

You should give to charity/church out of appreciation to God for what He has allowed you to have and accumulate.

[cosine]

I believe in tithing, but only if it is financially feasible for you to do so. If you have outstanding debts, pay those off first. In that case you don't need to contribute a full ten percent to the Church (Catholic, of course ), just a little that you can spare as you pay off your debts. (i.e., even if you have outstanding debts, you can still probably give a dollar or two each week to charity. It's the spirit which counts. As soon as the debts are resolved, the spirit can become more generous. )

[BozemanMT]

well, I do know the LDS church preaches greatly against getting into debt.
That having a debt load means you owe other people, may do things that you should not do and doesn't allow you to give your time and energy to your family instead of paying the moneylender.  There are earthly things and there are heavenly things, in the grand scheme of eternity, which is more important?  

.

Taking care of responsibility is more important.

You missed my point (or I wasn't clear enough)
So, let me try again.
You shouldn't be buying this crap to begin with and you definately shouldn't be going into debt to do it.  It's just earthly stuff and it's not important in the grand scheme of things.

[BozemanMT]

I believe in tithing, but only if it is financially feasible for you to do so. If you have outstanding debts, pay those off first. In that case you don't need to contribute a full ten percent to the Church (Catholic, of course ), just a little that you can spare as you pay off your debts. (i.e., even if you have outstanding debts, you can still probably give a dollar or two each week to charity. It's the spirit which counts. As soon as the debts are resolved, the spirit can become more generous. )

It will never be financially feasible for you to do so.
I gaurantee it.
You will always find someone to pay first or buy or whatever and you will never have anything left.
You have choosen to put paying your tithing last.
I pay my tithing first and you're darn right it hurts, but I choose to schedule and budget so i can pay it.  And I pay it right away.

As you said, it's a choice and a belief.  I choose to believe that tithing is literal as in the Bible as 1 in 10 back to God.  That's ok, we can agree to disagree.   shake?

[Jamisjockey]

well, I do know the LDS church preaches greatly against getting into debt.
That having a debt load means you owe other people, may do things that you should not do and doesn't allow you to give your time and energy to your family instead of paying the moneylender.  There are earthly things and there are heavenly things, in the grand scheme of eternity, which is more important?  

.

Taking care of responsibility is more important.

You missed my point (or I wasn't clear enough)
So, let me try again.
You shouldn't be buying this crap to begin with and you definately shouldn't be going into debt to do it.  It's just earthly stuff and it's not important in the grand scheme of things.

That's a much better way to make the point.
:-)
We all do, however, make mistakes.  As someone put it in this thread, not paying off debts is akin to stealing.  I'd bet most religions would rather thier members not steal to make thier tithings....

[Guest]

That's a much better way to make the point.
:-)
We all do, however, make mistakes.  As someone put it in this thread, not paying off debts is akin to stealing.  I'd bet most religions would rather thier members not steal to make thier tithings....

I think its also of importance to note that most religions that require tithing also believe in a a God that grants forgiveness for mistakes. Part of that forgiveness means righting ones wrongs and I cannot help but think that God is understanding of such an effort.