Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: AZRedhawk44 on December 03, 2018, 11:02:08 AM
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I have a home-built trailer that has a 6'x10' interior, with two fold-out bed platforms on either side that are 5x7 on one side and 4x7 on the other, for a total interior square footage of 123 sq ft. The two bed platforms have canvas/fabric walls and roof, but the main 6x10 area is insulated (aside from the great big holes in the wall where the bed platforms fold out). I'm about to replace the bed platforms with a better iteration that has rigid roof and walls, and some light insulation and better rain protection, which should hold warmth in better.
I'd like to have some sort of heating solution that works well in this rig. I've got a Mr. Heater Buddy radiant propane heater, but even on low output that thing only lasts about 5-6 hours on a 1lb canister. I want something that can run for 8-10 hours without having to crawl out of bed and change canisters in the cold. I wish the Mr. Heater had an adjustable output rather than only 2 settings... I could throttle it to a point where one can might last all night.
I know about the hose that is available to hook a Mr. Buddy to a big propane tank, but that doesn't really appeal to me. A big 20lb tank is a large object in this tiny trailer, and I don't want the tank inside nor do I want to build an access port to run a hose between inside and outside. I can get a 5lb tank, but anything smaller than 20lb carries a hefty price premium when buying a tank.
Anyone have recommendations for a heater that puts out 3000-10,000 BTUs and can run for at least 8 hours (ideally 12) without refueling, and doesn't use disposable non-refillable containers? I'm not looking to maintain 70 degrees, just keep the inside between 40-50 degrees when it's about 20 degrees outside. I'd like to be able to carry enough fuel to run a heater for a week of nightly use.
Some things I've considered but not sold on:
1. UCO Candlelier. I have a single-candle UCO candle lantern that I've used in a tent to keep warm on cold weather camping trips. It puts out about 1500-ish BTUs and can warm a small tent 5-10 degrees from a harsh cold outside temp. The candle will last anywhere from 8 to 12 hours. But, the candles are kind of expensive for 1 night of warmth. Supposedly the 3-candle version will put out about 5000 BTUs... but my fuel costs for 3 candles each night starts to get spendy. I've seen conversions where people use little kerosene lamps inside it made from little 50ml whiskey bottles and I've tried that conversion on my single-candle setup, but I find it to be sooty and unreliable with thermal expansion. I don't trust it to be safe. The caps expand and vapor starts to burn from under the cap as well as from the wick hole.
2. Kerosene heater. Up to 10k BTUs, yay. ~1 gallon capacity is typical, with a runtime of 14 hours. Kero is $8-$12 a gallon though, at stores. Not sure where I can find kero in a pump. With pump kero a scarcity, it's not a direction I'd prefer to go.
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Before reading your entire post, I was going to recommend the Mr. Heater and the adapter hose. I usually use that in my camper when I am off grid, as its forced air furnace requires electricity. I have a dual burner Mr. heater as backup heat for my house when the power goes out in colder months. On medium setting, a 20-lb tank will keep my home toasty warm for three days.
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Something like so:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-5KW-5000W-Air-diesel-Heater-For-Car-Truck-Motor-homes-Boats-Bus-Van/352233358455?hash=item5202be8477:g:VJoAAOSwvApaMlpF
Seems like it'd require fabrication as well as a 12VDC source, but fuel is easy to come by.
Or you could try running diesel in a kerosene heater like this dude does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2dAx2fn9s8
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Just to make sure I'm reading this properly.
You're looking for a combustion-based heat source,
...to use inside an enclosed structure,
...while you're inside?
Brad
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Why not an infrared electric heater hooked up to a small generator outside the camper. Many generators run for a long time on an onboard tank of gasoline.
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Or just a plug-in space heater ?? No risk of CO poisoning.
https://www.google.com/search?q=space+heaters+at+walmart&client=firefox-b-1-ab&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivxYKPoITfAhVmmK0KHfAtByQQ_AUIDygC
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Just to make sure I'm reading this properly.
You're looking for a combustion-based heat source,
...to use inside an enclosed structure,
...while you're inside?
Brad
Lots of combustion based heaters that have good CO control. I have a CO monitor inside. And the trailer has adequate ventilation.
I'm open to all sorts of options that don't involve a gasoline electric generator. I do have a 1200watt inverter and battery bank and solar panels on this thing. Right now I only have 200 watts in panels but once the structural upgrade is done I'll have either 400 or 600 watts, not sure yet on how far I'll take it. I don't want the noise of a generator. Obviously I won't have solar available at night, but I could probably run a ~250 watt space heater all night on my current setup, and it would recharge the next day as long as sunlight is available. My current power usage is mostly 12vDC LED lights with intermittent inverter use for charging things like my 18v sawzall batteries (I use a 12" blade on that for firewood since I don't have a chainsaw).
With a bigger battery bank, electric is possible. It's just a question of if increasing battery weight is more mass-efficient than carrying combustible fuel for a heater.
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Anyone here an expert on propane, and propane accessories?
Let's say I get the adapter hose to make my Mr. Heater Buddy heater attach to a larger tank. I set the heater to its "low" position and it doesn't have an adjustable thermostat, only a low/high setting. Can I put an adjustable flow regulator between the tank and the heater that further restricts fuel flow, to provide more granular heat control and fuel use?
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Anyone here an expert on propane, and propane accessories?
Let's say I get the adapter hose to make my Mr. Heater Buddy heater attach to a larger tank. I set the heater to its "low" position and it doesn't have an adjustable thermostat, only a low/high setting. Can I put an adjustable flow regulator between the tank and the heater that further restricts fuel flow, to provide more granular heat control and fuel use?
I think Boomhauer is pretty close with such an expert.
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Anyone here an expert on propane, and propane accessories?
Let's say I get the adapter hose to make my Mr. Heater Buddy heater attach to a larger tank. I set the heater to its "low" position and it doesn't have an adjustable thermostat, only a low/high setting. Can I put an adjustable flow regulator between the tank and the heater that further restricts fuel flow, to provide more granular heat control and fuel use?
Don't do that. The appliance is designed for a certain amount of fuel flow to maintain complete combustion across the surface of the element. Reducing the fuel flow to it risks not maintaining enough heat to prevent impingement, which would result in a CO hazard.
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What Nick said. Perhaps you could right it so that the tank is on the outside and the line runs into the trailer?
Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
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What's your max heating requirements?
You could go catalytic style, but most of those are only on/off and not a lot of adjustability.
This one goes 4,000 to 8,000 BTU -- https://www.amazon.com/Camco-57351-Olympian-Wave-8-Catalytic/dp/B000EDQR8M/ref=zg_bs_3147789011_9?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=XBXMEJWSPXC97YYK3F0M
As always, get a CO detector.
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If you already have 12v, that ebay one I posted runs on diesel and has separate air circuits for combustion and heating air. It seems pretty much what you need.
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I use a single panel Portable Buddy propane heater in my Eureka Outfitter 6 man tent. 4K or 9K BTU output. I can use a one pound canister, or use an adapter with a larger tank and a longer hose. The 20# bottle stays outside. This has worked well for me in temps as low as 6F, with wind, rain and snow. The heater sits on a 18 inch ceramic tile. The low setting is all I ever use. This gives me at least a 20 degree differential from the outside temps.
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I use a Big Mr Buddy in my deer blind in the ice fishing shanty. I switched from 2- 1 lbs canisters to a choice between a 11# or 20# bottle, depending how far I need to carry it from the truck. I was lucky of I could get a whole day of hunting in or a day on the ice with just 2lbs. Usually due to freezing up on me. 11# usually gets me through several trips, before I need to think about a refill. I'm also lucky that I have a place in my neighbor (Tractor Supply) that only sells you the actual amount of propane you purchase on a fill, so if it feels light I take it for a fill.
Some day I am going to build a permanent ice shanty and I'm going to put a 40# or 100# propane tank on it and use a wall mounted ventless heater that I picked up on clearance 2 years ago end of season for $20 (down from $180)
If you do the hose route, put the tank on the outside, you don't want a potential a leaky tank on the inside. Make sure you get a inline filter too.
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Something like this might work for you
https://www.amazon.com/Dyna-Glo-IR12PMDG-1-Liquid-Propane-Infrared/dp/B016I0DBA6/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1543885756&sr=8-14&keywords=glo+heater+propane
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I'd like to have some sort of heating solution that works well in this rig. I've got a Mr. Heater Buddy radiant propane heater, but even on low output that thing only lasts about 5-6 hours on a 1lb canister. I want something that can run for 8-10 hours without having to crawl out of bed and change canisters in the cold. I wish the Mr. Heater had an adjustable output rather than only 2 settings... I could throttle it to a point where one can might last all night.
Could you make up a manifold to run two 1-pound canisters in parallel?
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Don't do that. The appliance is designed for a certain amount of fuel flow to maintain complete combustion across the surface of the element. Reducing the fuel flow to it risks not maintaining enough heat to prevent impingement, which would result in a CO hazard.
Thanks. Yeah, that was my suspicion.
I use a Big Mr Buddy in my deer blind in the ice fishing shanty. I switched from 2- 1 lbs canisters to a choice between a 11# or 20# bottle, depending how far I need to carry it from the truck. I was lucky of I could get a whole day of hunting in or a day on the ice with just 2lbs. Usually due to freezing up on me. 11# usually gets me through several trips, before I need to think about a refill. I'm also lucky that I have a place in my neighbor (Tractor Supply) that only sells you the actual amount of propane you purchase on a fill, so if it feels light I take it for a fill.
Some day I am going to build a permanent ice shanty and I'm going to put a 40# or 100# propane tank on it and use a wall mounted ventless heater that I picked up on clearance 2 years ago end of season for $20 (down from $180)
If you do the hose route, put the tank on the outside, you don't want a potential a leaky tank on the inside. Make sure you get a inline filter too.
Can you spitball in hours, the amount of runtime you get out of an 11# bottle? I don't dig the idea of a 20# tank on the trailer and I kinda like the look/concept of a pair of 5# tanks affixed to either side of the trailer, kind of an Overland look. I suspect that the Mr. Heater gets better fuel efficiency out of a larger tank than the little 1# disposables due to stouter construction, greater LPG fill level and better pressurization during the fill process, but that's just a wild ass guess.
I hear you on the freezing up. I also have a Coleman camp stove that uses the 1# bottles and it regularly freezes on me if I operate it below about 35 degrees. I've come into an old Coleman liquid fuel stove that I've borrowed long-term from a friend, that is going to replace my propane stove. I actually just refurbed the pump on it tonight and tested it. It seems to put out more heat than the propane one, and this type of stove has a better reputation in cold weather than propane does. I don't think freezing would be a problem with the Mr. Heater because it's heating its own operating environment. Though that can certainly be cast into doubt if the tank and regulator are sited outside but the heater is inside... but larger tank regulators are more cold tolerant than the tiny onboard ones that camp equipment have built-in.
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Can you spitball in hours, the amount of runtime you get out of an 11# bottle? I don't dig the idea of a 20# tank on the trailer and I kinda like the look/concept of a pair of 5# tanks affixed to either side of the trailer, kind of an Overland look. I suspect that the Mr. Heater gets better fuel efficiency out of a larger tank than the little 1# disposables due to stouter construction, greater LPG fill level and better pressurization during the fill process, but that's just a wild ass guess.
20# is the BBQ grill size, FYI. Most campers do have dual 20# tanks on their tongues, so it wouldn't look too weird.
FYI, I've had my 11# freeze up on me nearing the last 1# or 2 in the bottle in temps below 10F. So far never had a 20# freeze up, even in sub zero temps.
From the website regarding the Big Buddy on run times.
Operating time will vary depending on the heater
setting and the supply cylinder size. (One 1 lb. cylinder:
1.5 to 6 hours. Two 1 lb. cylinders: 3 to 12 hours.
Two 20 lb. cylinders: 50 to 220 hours.) Heater may be
operated from quick disconnect, one or both regulated
inlets.
11# should get you conservatively 3-3.5 nights on the lowest setting.
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here is something else?? http://ventedcatheater.com/2.html
Not sure of the price, but you need 12vdc to run the exhaust blower. Wouldn't get condensation from burning LP either.
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20# is the BBQ grill size, FYI. Most campers do have dual 20# tanks on their tongues, so it wouldn't look too weird.
Yep, I know, I have a pair of 20# tanks for my BBQ and my beer wort boiler. I hate transporting them because they rock all over the place and roll around. A 5 or 10# tank I imagine would be easier to brace in a corner of the jeep trunk with a toolbox... the 20# tanks bully things around and roll on their own accord. I'm also trying to keep tongue weight freed up for aggressive use of the cargo platform in the picture of the OP. Whether an elk goes on there, or a small dirtbike, I have 350# tongue weight and 3500# total tow weight my JKU can handle.
Right now I actively manage that tongue weight by putting heavier cargo items on it (stove, fuel, water jugs, cooler, etc) while headed out to the woods. There's plans for a lightweight dual sport (CRF250R, WR250R, FE350, Zero, DRZ400, something like that) to go on the tongue, at which point 75 pounds of propane tanks would have to be relocated to make weight allowance for the bike.
Tiny 5# tanks could ride outboard on the either side near the axle, effectively giving no tongue weight. I've seen that done with overland style trailers, elsewhere. Maybe even tall skinny 10 or 11 pound tanks, but not short squat ones with the same diameter of the 20# tanks.
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Yep, I know, I have a pair of 20# tanks for my BBQ and my beer wort boiler. I hate transporting them because they rock all over the place and roll around. A 5 or 10# tank I imagine would be easier to brace in a corner of the jeep trunk with a toolbox... the 20# tanks bully things around and roll on their own accord. I'm also trying to keep tongue weight freed up for aggressive use of the cargo platform in the picture of the OP. Whether an elk goes on there, or a small dirtbike, I have 350# tongue weight and 3500# total tow weight my JKU can handle.
Right now I actively manage that tongue weight by putting heavier cargo items on it (stove, fuel, water jugs, cooler, etc) while headed out to the woods. There's plans for a lightweight dual sport (CRF250R, WR250R, FE350, Zero, DRZ400, something like that) to go on the tongue, at which point 75 pounds of propane tanks would have to be relocated to make weight allowance for the bike.
Tiny 5# tanks could ride outboard on the either side near the axle, effectively giving no tongue weight. I've seen that done with overland style trailers, elsewhere. Maybe even tall skinny 10 or 11 pound tanks, but not short squat ones with the same diameter of the 20# tanks.
Gotcha
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Something like so:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-5KW-5000W-Air-diesel-Heater-For-Car-Truck-Motor-homes-Boats-Bus-Van/352233358455?hash=item5202be8477:g:VJoAAOSwvApaMlpF
Seems like it'd require fabrication as well as a 12VDC source, but fuel is easy to come by.
Or you could try running diesel in a kerosene heater like this dude does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2dAx2fn9s8
Not sure if it fits his application, but I think this is a really neat product. Thanks for sharing it.
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Something like so:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-5KW-5000W-Air-diesel-Heater-For-Car-Truck-Motor-homes-Boats-Bus-Van/352233358455?hash=item5202be8477:g:VJoAAOSwvApaMlpF
Seems like it'd require fabrication as well as a 12VDC source, but fuel is easy to come by.
Or you could try running diesel in a kerosene heater like this dude does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2dAx2fn9s8
It is neat, dogmush, thanks for sharing it. I notice that the ebay one you list is about $160, from a company with a chinese name, and there are similar products from companies with german names for 5-10x the price. I'm guessing this is a high demand item in long haul trucking and people are willing to pay the premium for the euro-produced one over the chinese clone, for safety or efficiency?
More about the trailer it's going into... I built it from the ground up, welded the frame and everything. It has a 19 gallon water tank under the floor. Aside from the two bed platforms, interior is currently sparse until I finish the issues I have with the current fabric roof system and switch it over to a more sophisticated articulated wall system. Once structural issues with that are resolved, interior design commences and there will be an L-shaped bench around a table. Under the cavity of the table's bench is a two piece galley kitchen that pulls out the back of the trailer. 300 pound rated sliders for the long segment which holds the burners and a work/prep surface, and separate 300 pound sliders for the pull out sink. I have an on demand propane water heater that will also be situated under the table bench. I'm stewing on adding a small fridge to it, and I am tempted to get an AC/DC/LPG fridge for peak flexibility, though I'd far prefer to run the fridge on DC since I have solar and a battery bank. There's a vented composting toilet inside for solid waste that has a divider wall to give it some privacy. Cover the waste with sawdust or ash from the campfire and smell is nonexistent. I use biodegradable bags inside it and bury them every 2-3 days or so. This way I have no black water tank to deal with.
Stewing on the entire project as a system, I think it's better to standardize on a single fuel source for all appliances and only vary that when I come across issues that cannot be avoided. I should get better reliability (regarding the regulator freezing up) out of my propane stove with a larger tank and regulator. The water heater is propane. I already have a Mr. Heater that runs on propane, my problem is it running out of fuel on the 1# cans in the middle of the night. Going to diesel for a heater and kerosene for a stove doesn't alter the fact that my water heater is propane, though the water heater will be so sparsely used that a 1# can should last an entire trip and then some.
But the idea of a ducted solution is kind of appealing, for presentation value and neatness. I don't like how the Mr. Heater clutters the floor. I'll have to look into similar offerings that burn propane rather than diesel and interface with automotive style 3" plenum and ducting, kind of like this:
https://www.propexheatsource.com/heaters/hs2000-furnace/
You opened my eyes to something I didn't know existed, thanks!
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How about a direct vent furnace like you find in travel trailer and build it into cupboards as you design them? Still going to need a 12 volt source to run it.
https://www.amazon.com/Suburban-2446ABK-Nt-20SEQ-Furnace-Black/dp/B00HSO2QL2/ref=asc_df_B00HSO2QL2/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312094794632&hvpos=1o4&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9711258231841345334&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9017973&hvtargid=pla-570834184548&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=60223452937&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312094794632&hvpos=1o4&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9711258231841345334&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9017973&hvtargid=pla-570834184548
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Yeah, I think something a bit more polished than the Mr. Heater is in order, but I'll limp by with it and a 10# tank and hose until I'm ready to decide on a specific product. I really do like the idea of a ducted solution of some sort.
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Too bad you can't find an free older camper and gut some of the stuff out of it to put into your new trailer.
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I'm shocked that none of you asshats, not a single one, recommended burning floppy disks...
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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What are you, a gorram dinosaur or something? Who besides you has enough floppy disks to warm a room for any length of time? :lol:
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What are you, a gorram dinosaur or something? Who besides you has enough floppy disks to warm a room for any length of time? :lol:
Yeah.
It's CD's now.
Brad
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Given that it is a custom trailer, a thought that came to me was a thermal mass solution. It sounds like you already have the space under your trailer being used, but I had the idea of the thermal mass heater:
(https://richsoil.com/images/daybed2.jpg)
https://richsoil.com/rocket-stove-mass-heater.jsp
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Um... that looks a tad too heavy for my poor jeep to tow. Neat idea for a hunting shack or something like that though.
ETA: Something I have considered is using the water pump, the hot water heater, and the 19 gallon water tank as a thermal mass. Recirculate the tank through the pump and into the hot water heater and back into the tank, bringing the whole tank up to 100+ degrees F. That would warm the floor since the tank is between the wheels, and warm the interior, and protect the tank from freezing. But I think the way I built the floor has too much insulation between the tank and the interior for that to be effective, more of the heat would bleed to the outdoors than into the trailer.
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Well, I was thinking more along the lines of maximizing heater efficiency by routing the heat so it warms up your bed before exiting to either the cabin air or outside.
The mass allows you to not have to run a heater all the time.
If you can get an efficient vented solution going, you can afford to seal up and insulate the rest of the space a lot more without moisture becoming an issue.
As for your idea with the water tank, that's kind of what I was suggesting with the rocket stove. Except what I'd do is run loops of pex between the floor and floor insulation. Enough loops and you can just ignore the water tank, just hook up a heater.
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Yeah.
It's CD's now.
Brad
Hum... trying to figure out what those CDs are possessing...
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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a night.
Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
=D
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Something like so:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-5KW-5000W-Air-diesel-Heater-For-Car-Truck-Motor-homes-Boats-Bus-Van/352233358455?hash=item5202be8477:g:VJoAAOSwvApaMlpF
Seems like it'd require fabrication as well as a 12VDC source, but fuel is easy to come by.
Or you could try running diesel in a kerosene heater like this dude does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2dAx2fn9s8
A new version of the old Janitrol heater. https://janitrol.aero/aircraft-heaters/
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Years ago I used t do boat work, including installing a lot of ESPAR forced air diesel burners. This type of unit has a lot of parts to go wrong. Given that you already need a propane source, and that you contemplate a propane reefer, it would n]make sense to keep it simple and use a propane fired burner of some sort. It will be a much cleaner burning unit as well. The projected insulation improvements may mean a heater with much less output would suffice.....in a small room, the right partner can keep it warm....... =D