Margaret Thatcher has died

[agricola]

As you can imagine, this has somewhat dominated the news over here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-dies-aged-87

Feeling a bit odd over here.  I grew up in the 1980s, in a part of the world where she was not popular and became markedly less popular the longer she stayed in office (culminating in the aftermath of the Hillsborough disaster, which will probably be seen as her worst action by some distance).  However seeing how bad her successors have been - either weak but sensible (Major), or outright evil (Blair), or just crap (Brown) - she comes across as a much better leader that she was seen as at the time.

[makattak]

A sad day for Britain, and the world. Lady Thatcher was truly an admirable lady. Our world is better for her efforts and we all suffer from the loss.

My we be graced with such a leader. (And soon!)

[RevDisk]

From a libertarian POV, she was not a nice person. She's only a good leader, because the UK has had so many poor ones.

Y'all used to be the Empire where the sun never set. It's a shame what happened to you guys. All those British soldiers bought an empire, and Britain didn't want to may the price to keep it. You guys really need to remove "Great" from your country's name.

[Jamisjockey]

From a libertarian POV, she was not a nice person. She's only a good leader, because the UK has had so many poor ones.

Y'all used to be the Empire where the sun never set. It's a shame what happened to you guys. All those British soldiers bought an empire, and Britain didn't want to may the price to keep it. You guys really need to remove "Great" from your country's name.

True.  But there were many things she did which get the nod. Leading the charge to de-socialize Britan's industry being the top of the list.
Her and Ronnie stood toe to toe against Communism and won. 

[agricola]

From a libertarian POV, she was not a nice person. She's only a good leader, because the UK has had so many poor ones.

Y'all used to be the Empire where the sun never set. It's a shame what happened to you guys. All those British soldiers bought an empire, and Britain didn't want to may the price to keep it. You guys really need to remove "Great" from your country's name.

The price we would probably have had to pay to keep it - to go along with what Hitler wanted to do on the European continent - was not worth it.

[SADShooter]

The price we would probably have had to pay to keep it - to go along with what Hitler wanted to do on the European continent - was not worth it.

I would also argue the tide of anti-colonialist sentiment post WWII was too strong and the dissolution of the Empire inevitable, even with a more forceful effort to maintain it.

Lady Thatcher wasn't perfect, but I agree the sum of her achievements will continue to rehabilitate her reputation.

RIP

[roo_ster]

Reagan, JPII, and Thatcher were giants among Lilliputians in the 1980s.  The West had just about given up, but they bitch-slapped their ruling class into sucking it up and driving on to win the Cold War.  And they will never be forgiven for doing so.

From a short-sighted, a-historical libertarian POV, she was not a nice person. She's only a good leader, because the UK has had so many poor ones.

She did more for liberty by taking on and fighting the greatest force for tyranny on the face of the Earth than any libertarian hair-splitter or dorm-room bull-slinger.

[Sergeant Bob]

Rest peacefully Maggie.

[RevDisk]

Reagan, JPII, and Thatcher were giants among Lilliputians in the 1980s.  The West had just about given up, but they bitch-slapped their ruling class into sucking it up and driving on to win the Cold War.  And they will never be forgiven for doing so.

She did more for liberty by taking on and fighting the greatest force for tyranny on the face of the Earth than any libertarian hair-splitter or dorm-room bull-slinger.

Fair enough. And I do mean that. I just get annoyed at the retconning folks do with Reagan, Thatcher, etc. In my opinion, facing down communism means she wasn't a bad person. She did encourage the UK's slide towards a police state. Yes, communism is a significantly worse threat. But the other isn't good either.

And yea, no one human being could probably have stopped the UK's slide into socialism.

[TommyGunn]

From a libertarian POV, she was not a nice person. She's only a good leader, because the UK has had so many poor ones.

Y'all used to be the Empire where the sun never set.* It's a shame what happened to you guys. All those British soldiers bought an empire, and Britain didn't want to may the price to keep it. You guys really need to remove "Great" from your country's name.

*~~Only 'cause God didn't trust youz guyz in the dark! ! ! !


Seriously, my condolences to all the English.  The Iron Lady was a great leader.  The world is poorer without her.

[roo_ster]

Fair enough. And I do mean that. I just get annoyed at the retconning folks do with Reagan, Thatcher, etc. In my opinion, facing down communism means she wasn't a bad person. She did encourage the UK's slide towards a police state. Yes, communism is a significantly worse threat. But the other isn't good either.

And yea, no one human being could probably have stopped the UK's slide into socialism.

In retrospect, you would think anyone with an ounce of integrity and the smallest love of liberty in their heart would have resisted communist tyranny to one extent or another.  But many/most of the ruling class did not.  They were interested in accommodating mass-murderers and "managing the decline" of the West.  

Reagan, JPII, and MT were exceptional because they were the exceptions.  I used an analogy to Lilliputians.  More apt than I realize?  Perhaps RR, JPII, and MT really were not giants for liberty on the political stage.  Perhaps they were just decent, regular folk with a modest love of liberty...and everyone else in politics at that time was a moral midget or just plain evil, so the "Big Three" looked colossal in comparison.

[HankB]

Ms. Thatcher had her faults, but she was the best leader I remember the Brits having during my lifetime. (Of course, I could say much the same about the USA's best leader during my lifetime, who of course was Reagan.)

Take a look at some of what the leftists in Britain are saying about Thatcher's demise . . . including vitriolic comments by elected members of Parliament. "Churlish" doesn't begin to describe the depths of depravity plumbed by their celebratory expressions of joy.    

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2305760/Margaret-Thatcher-dead-George-Galloway-leads-chorus-celebration-left.html

[agricola]

Ms. Thatcher had her faults, but she was the best leader I remember the Brits having during my lifetime. (Of course, I could say much the same about the USA's best leader during my lifetime, who of course was Reagan.)

Take a look at some of what the leftists in Britain are saying about Thatcher's demise . . . including vitriolic comments by elected members of Parliament. "Churlish" doesn't begin to describe the depths of depravity plumbed by their celebratory expressions of joy.    

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2305760/Margaret-Thatcher-dead-George-Galloway-leads-chorus-celebration-left.html

It is hard to overstate how hated she was in much of the country, especially in the North, because of what her government (and its successors) did or were accused of doing / blamed for. 

How much of what they did was necessary is open to debate - the confrontation with the unions probably was (some of the abuses of union power were notorious and their position was definately abused), some of the cuts less so - for instance the cuts to and daft privatization of BREL, which - followed as it was by the most incompetent privatization ever seen - destroyed what was a world-class engineering concern that would have dominated rolling stock production across Europe, saved hundreds of thousands of jobs, slashed the welfare bill, boosted the tax revenues etc etc.

[Balog]

I don't know much about here, I'm interested in exactly what she did that was anti-liberty or fostered the police state etc. Not trolling, genuinely don't know anything about her.

And since Britain is largely a socialist welfare state it makes sense that the socialists and welfare parasites would have hated her.

[makattak]

Ms. Thatcher had her faults, but she was the best leader I remember the Brits having during my lifetime. (Of course, I could say much the same about the USA's best leader during my lifetime, who of course was Reagan.)

Take a look at some of what the leftists in Britain are saying about Thatcher's demise . . . including vitriolic comments by elected members of Parliament. "Churlish" doesn't begin to describe the depths of depravity plumbed by their celebratory expressions of joy.    

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2305760/Margaret-Thatcher-dead-George-Galloway-leads-chorus-celebration-left.html

Look on our side of the pond, too.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/344931/msnbc-host-thatcher-embodied-selfishness-eliana-johnson

http://jpfreire.com/post/47456704700/associated-press-praise-chavez-grouse-about-thatcher

They are ranting against her as well. No "appropriate grieving time" before the attacks.  Leftists HATE conservatives.

One would hope the so-called conservatives in Washington might notice this, given how blatant it is. Unfortunately, they prefer to talk about "my friends" across the aisle.

(I will make a disclaimer: I waited a much shorter time before spitting on Ted Kennedy's grave, because I think he is guilty, at least, of negligent homicide for which his money and power got him a pass. For those I merely disagree with politically, I give a respectful time just as I would expect from the other side. Of course, I can clearly see how much that is honored by the leftists.)

[agricola]

And since Britain is largely a socialist welfare state it makes sense that the socialists and welfare parasites would have hated her.

Its a bit more complex than that - when she came to power, there was much more full employment than there is now (admittedly mainly in nationalized industries, and whether that would have been sustainable is perhaps a matter for debate), and the spending on welfare was much lower.  There was also - bizarrely given that it cost much less - quite a bit more support for the poor than there is now, especially in terms of quality education. 

[makattak]

Its a bit more complex than that - when she came to power, there was much more full employment than there is now (admittedly mainly in nationalized industries, and whether that would have been sustainable is perhaps a matter for debate), and the spending on welfare was much lower.  There was also - bizarrely given that it cost much less - quite a bit more support for the poor than there is now, especially in terms of quality education.  

You do realize the she didn't die in office, right?

[makattak]

http://www.businessinsider.com/margaret-thatcher-on-the-euro-2013-4

Extremely related.

[makattak]

 
Also related.

[Balog]

Its a bit more complex than that - when she came to power, there was much more full employment than there is now (admittedly mainly in nationalized industries, and whether that would have been sustainable is perhaps a matter for debate), and the spending on welfare was much lower.  There was also - bizarrely given that it cost much less - quite a bit more support for the poor than there is now, especially in terms of quality education. 

But her policies weren't durable right? So blaming her for the state of things brought about by her predecessors who reversed her policies seems off.

[kgbsquirrel]

Gentlemen, Ladies, it is rather unseemly to be arguing politics over the recently deceased, and markedly uncouth to be attacking the deceased before they are even interred.

I suggest we take a reprieve from our usual banter in order to show our respects for the passing of a notably leader, and to reflect on the good deeds and joys of her life. There is time enough for reproach later.

ETA: Please take note that this thread is no longer in the Politics section.




God speed to you, Mrs. Thatcher, the daughter of a grocer who rose to become our Iron Lady.  

[roo_ster]

[agricola]

You do realize the she didn't die in office, right?

But her policies weren't durable right? So blaming her for the state of things brought about by her predecessors who reversed her policies seems off.

I'm not blaming her for what happened after she left office, but one of her legacies is that her time in office radically altered British politics - for instance, there would not have been a New Labour, Tony Blair would probably have become a Liberal Democrat, etc. 

[Perd Hapley]

Hulu has a BBC film about the Falklands episode. The actor playing Reagan looks nothing like him, but other than that, it looks pretty good.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/476605

[RocketMan]

Hulu has a BBC film about the Falklands episode. The actor playing Reagan looks nothing like him, but other than that, it looks pretty good.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/476605

Watched it.  Not a bad little drama.  Wanted to strangle the idiots that kept saying violence wouldn't solve the problem, that the Argies should just be appeased.