Remington Home Defense 12 Guage Loads?

[Perd Hapley]

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshells/home-defense/home-defense-loads.aspx

In 2010, Remington introduced a new ammunition product designed to enhance the effectiveness of your shotgun in a home defense scenario – Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense.

Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense shotgun ammunition features the same pellet material as the popular Wingmaster HDâ„¢ tungsten-bronze hunting ammunition and is offered in two loadings. Consumers can choose from a load of BB’s for the highest terminal energy or a duplex mixture of #2 and #4 pellets for excellent pattern density and outstanding stopping power with a reduced chance of over-penetration.

Both loads are 12 gauge, 2 ¾-inch with 1 1/4 ounces of shot at 1250 feet per second. At the most commonly encountered home defense distances, Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense produces very tight patterns for one-shot confidence.

Assuming they will be staggered in the magazine with slug rounds, what is the opinion of this esteemed college of commentators?

Otherwise, I'm going to get some of those uber-tactical, olive-drab military buckshot loads from Winchester.

[Boomhauer]

Unless they are talking about #2 and #4 buck in the second load, I wouldn't use either.

Give me buck or slugs. Accept no substitutes.

Otherwise, I'm going to get some of those uber-tactical, olive-drab military buckshot loads from Winchester

Actually those are pretty "meh". The Federal buck loads with flite control wads are regarded as pretty decent.

[birdman]

Box o' truth has shown BB has penetration issues, and I agree.
The larger pellets should be better than that, but we KNOW 00 works just fine, and is highly available, lethal, and will penetrate sufficiently.  Why mess with a known quantity?

If you are staggering with slugs you are still going to have penetration issues with the follow-up shot, (the slug), which you have a higher chance of needed vs a 00 first shot.

I prefer 00 straight up...never quite understood the logic behind alternating shells.  I would rather absolutely know what is going to be fired, regardless of how adrenalized or rattled I may be.  If I have the mindset necessary to think "I should fire a slug next" that thought process takes about as much time as feeding in a slug from a side carrier and racking it.  Just my opinion.

[Boomhauer]

If you are staggering with slugs you are still going to have penetration issues with the follow-up shot, (the slug), which you have a higher chance of needed vs a 00 first shot.

I also don't like alternating slugs and shot. Keep your tube loaded one way or the other and if you desire the other rounds available- sidesaddle.

In reality for most HD situations buck is going to do the job just fine for close range (in house) and if you need to get somebody out beyond the distance where you get good grouping on target with buck, slugs.

[HankB]

Even .410 birdshot from a Taurus Judge can be lethal, but for defense, I personally would not choose anything less than 00 buck, no matter WHAT the manufacturer's marketing department says.

[coppertales]

I load my double with number 6 shot.  I shot a watermelon with that load and you could put your fist clear into the hole.  The stock pocket is loaded with buck and slugs for follow up.  The emergency room doc will have a ball picking all those pellets out of the perps gut.  If it warrants, I can pull both triggers at once.....chris3

[French G.]

The only staggered loading I'll let myself do is increasing loading, the tube starts with #4 buck and ends with slugs, 00 in between. I really like Federal's #4 buck LE/ reduced recoil load.

[roo_ster]

fistful:

If they produced it in 00 buck, I might give it a whirl.  BB?  #2 & #4, likely bird?  No thanks.

Also, keep with one load and the others on the side (saddle, butt cuff, etc.).


My wife (postop surgical trauma nurse) treats guys shot with birdshot in the torso every once in a while. Messy, messy wounds.  In the hospital for months, usually 12 or more.  Did I mention messy? <shudder>

Oddly, she has not yet treated a man who had been shot in the torso with either buck shot or a slug.  Not a one has recovered enough to get to her floor, and she works in one of the largest Level 1 trauma centers in the nation.  And we have plenty of homegrown and imported folks who like to shoot each other up.

I'm sure somebody has survived being shot with buck or slug.  She just hasn't seen one yet.

FTR, I use either Rem Express 12ga 2 3/4" 000 buck or Fed 12ga 2 3/4" 00 with the flite control wad.  I'd use slugs if I were not worried about one flying through the neighbor's siding.

[GigaBuist]

Short answer:  Federal 8 pellet 00 Buck.  It's sometimes sold as "law enforcement" or "reduced recoil" or whatever but I'd start there, make sure it works in your gun, patterns well, and if you have a problem with it branch out from there. 

Long answer:

You don't want to be using #2 or #4 for defense.  Penetration is going to be pretty crappy.  Rough guess, maybe 8" into gel on #2.  It's one of those things where I'm sure I've looked at a test, said it was crap, but didn't commit the final number to memory because I don't bother remembering just how ineffective some rounds are.  I just put them in the ineffective group.

And you can be sure they're not talking about #2 or #4 buck (which I would say are viable, but not popular) because the pellet:weight ratio can't get you a 1.25oz load.  There's 15 per ounce in #2 and 21 in #4.  they don't divide evenly.  You can do it with 00 Buck, but you'd end up with a really weird stack in the shell with 10 pellets and you'd be in the 3" size by then.

Anyway.... 1.25oz at 1250fps is going to thump heavily on the sending end.  I do not like high recoil shotgun rounds.  Hell I don't even like 1 1/8oz trap loads at 1200fps.  They annoy me with the recoil and you'd be hard pressed to find a trap shooter that honestly thinks that heavy payload (vs 1oz) does them any good when they're working off the 16 yard line.  But the 1 1/8oz shells are what sells as the cheap fodder because if you put them on the shelf next to one with only 1oz of shot most people are going to buy the one with more pellets because they think it helps.

It doesn't.

Now, that's trap/skeet/sporting clays talk but it relays into the HD world too.  The increased recoil, when compared to something like Federal's 8 pellet 00 Buck load, gets you less penetration, but more holes.  Is that worth anything?  I don't know.  Let's survey the guys shot with 00 Buck and ask them if it worked.

*crickets*

Yeah, you don't ever hear about a guy hit with 00 Buck and doing much after that.  You get it with 7.5# shot stories, where sometime they're DRT, or they continue the fight, or they get fixed up in the hospital, but stories about shrugging off 00 Buck haven't come across my plate.

The nice thing about Federal's 8 pellet 00 Buck loads is they put you in that nice docile region for the shooter and in the "bad idea" camp for the target.  A shell with 8 00 pellets has a payload of 1oz at 1145fps which is quite comfy for anybody used to shooting a 12 gauge.  Not comfortable on the other end though.

[Perd Hapley]

I have been meaning to get a shell carrier that bolts to the receiver, ever since I got the gun a decade ago. You people give me more reason to do so, and that is much appreciated. 

[Regolith]

The Federal 8 pellet 00 buck reduced recoil rounds are somewhat hard to find offline*, whereas the regular 9 pellet ones aren't. Recoil wise, the 9 pellet 00 buck loads don't bother me. I don't like to shoot a whole bunch of them at once (although that's almost more because they cost so much compared to trap loads), but one or two mags doesn't phase me, and I don't really have any problem staying on target with them.

Slugs, on the other hand, hit like the fist of an angry god. I have a few of them in the butt cuff shell holder just in case, but my mag tube is usually loaded with 00 buck.





*Ammo is expensive enough without adding shipping charges, so I usually buy local unless there's a really good reason.

[KD5NRH]

And you can be sure they're not talking about #2 or #4 buck (which I would say are viable, but not popular) because the pellet:weight ratio can't get you a 1.25oz load.  There's 15 per ounce in #2 and 21 in #4.  they don't divide evenly.  You can do it with 00 Buck, but you'd end up with a really weird stack in the shell with 10 pellets and you'd be in the 3" size by then.

#4 buck at home defense ranges will shear off a 3" thick mesquite tree.  Considering the hardness of mesquite, I figure that's good enough for HD.  I do back it up with a couple of magnum 00 loads and a 3" mag slug just in case of armored opponents, rhino attacks, etc.

[Perd Hapley]

Forgot to ask, which bolt-on shell-holders are recommended for the 870?

[French G.]

I use those silly tac-star holders and they work well. This however is the tits. http://3gungear.corecommerce.com/Shotgungear/Side-Saddle/7-Shell-Side-Saddle-p24.html I've played with them, but not owned them. 3 gun gear makes nice stuff.

Remington makes Hevi-shot buckshot, I don't see why that wouldn't be preferable to this thing they are marketing except they went for the old don't over-penetrate thing.  Over-penetration=twice the leaks=winning! Be sure of your target and what is beyond, seems I heard that one somewhere.

[Bob F.]

I had some Hornady TAP 00 loads, tight patten! But at HD ranges I'd as soon have a 4-5" pattern. Still gonna tear up jack and probably hit more vital organs than a golf ball size pattern. OTOH, don't think ther BG will know the difference. Supply of cheap Remmy 00 low recoil on hand .

Stay safe.
Bob

[RaspberrySurprise]

Bird shot is for birdies. This kind of stupidity is going to get someone killed.

[birdman]

Bird shot is for birdies. This kind of stupidity is going to get someone killed.

I take offense to that statement, it will take at least 00 to bring this bird down! :)

(agree on the statement though :) )

[Jamisjockey]

Bird shot is for birdies. This kind of stupidity is going to get someone killed.

The real problem is that it might not get someone killed....



The whole point to using a shotgun is that it delivers a large amount of whoop ass.  Dumbing buckshot down to birdshot is idiotic. 
I have no doubt that at close range, birdshot will cause some significant trauma.  But at 10, 15, 20 yards....it will not carry the velocity to reliably stop a perp in his tracks.
Count me in the buckshot and slug only camp.

[coppertales]

I take it that all you guys that say bird shot is useless against a perp are speaking from experience?  So, bird shot will only penetrate 8 inches.  Do you know how thick your body is?  How many of you experts live in a house where an inside shot will be 10, 15, or 20 yards?  A shot in my house, any of three, is no more than 15 feet.........Internet commandos at their best.....chris3

[French G.]

I take it that all you guys that say bird shot is useless against a perp are speaking from experience?  So, bird shot will only penetrate 8 inches.  Do you know how thick your body is?  How many of you experts live in a house where an inside shot will be 10, 15, or 20 yards?  A shot in my house, any of three, is no more than 15 feet.........Internet commandos at their best.....chris3

Umm, I believe it was the internets specials force that began the birdshot for SD craze. I'm sure birdshot will penetrate 8 inches...Of Jello!!! Last I checked all bad guys wear armor around their heart and lungs called ribs. I'd like to get inside of them.

[SADShooter]

I don't think anyone is claiming that birdshot can't be effective, any more than a .22 can't be lethal. However, it's a lower percentage option across the spectrum of possible scenarios. If the .22 is all you have, OK. But a .45 applied correctly has better odds of providing a stop, as does buckshot.

[Jamisjockey]

I take it that all you guys that say bird shot is useless against a perp are speaking from experience?  So, bird shot will only penetrate 8 inches.  Do you know how thick your body is?  How many of you experts live in a house where an inside shot will be 10, 15, or 20 yards?  A shot in my house, any of three, is no more than 15 feet.........Internet commandos at their best.....chris3

In my house I might have to make shots up to 20 yards.  Top of the stairs to the front hallway is a 15 yard shot, living room to front room, upstairs hallway.....will birdshot penetrate 8" at that range?  Perp wearing a winter or leather coat? Using the front door or furniture for cover?  At what distance does birdshot become ineffective? 
By the way, I've shot birdshot at all kinds of stuff.  Abandonded vehicles, dead cow, furniture, wood and drywall.  *expletive deleted*it, I've hit a coyote at under 10 yards and it ran off (found dead almost 400 yards away).....

[HankB]

Birdshot?

Like I wrote earlier, even a .410 with birdshot can be lethal, but they even recommend large sizes of birdshot for bigger birds . . . and a goose or turkey is not as hard as a man.

We can't always choose the type of perp we have invading our home . . . if the bad guy is a 6'5" 300 lb steroid-pumped biker in full leathers with a handful of angel dust up his nose, I don't want to trust to birdshot to stop him RIGHT NOW. If I'm using a scattergun, I want at least 00 buck.

[seeker_two]

The real problem is that it might not get someone killed....

Count me in the buckshot and slug only camp.

Same here on both counts....in fact, the best thing about a SxS double-barrel is that you can have both on tap at the same time....and I often do....

[never_retreat]

I for one keep the bedroom shoty loaded up with #4.
If i need more than that I will grab the AR.
But to be honest I would grab the pistol before the shotgun anyway.