Energy executive chides Obama administration

[makattak]

According to this link, we used 7.5 billion barrels in 2007. 

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/ask/crudeoil_faqs.asp

I'd rather depend on some other form of energy that we produce here in the US.

I love these people who think they are being so smart and forward looking:

"Hey, they oil may run out someday, we need to come up with something else."

It's another of those: Sounds good at first but cannot work.

What they propose is not to take it on themselves to discover a new energy source. That would be noble, at least.

Instead they propose forcing everyone to pay for SOMEONE ELSE to discover a new energy source.

You know, because they know better than us.

Personally, I'd prefer to let the market come up with a solution ONCE WE HAVE AN ACTUAL PROBLEM WITH OIL. It's amazing how well the market responds to needs.

Until then, we are simply crippling ourselves so that the people in government can fund their pet projects.

Why can't people see beyond the INTENDED result of their action?

[dm1333]

I love these people who think they are being so smart and forward looking:

"Hey, they oil may run out someday, we need to come up with something else."

It's another of those: Sounds good at first but cannot work.

What they propose is not to take it on themselves to discover a new energy source. That would be noble, at least.

Instead they propose forcing everyone to pay for SOMEONE ELSE to discover a new energy source.

You know, because they know better than us.

Personally, I'd prefer to let the market come up with a solution ONCE WE HAVE AN ACTUAL PROBLEM WITH OIL. It's amazing how well the market responds to needs.

Until then, we are simply crippling ourselves so that the people in government can fund their pet projects.

Why can't people see beyond the INTENDED result of their action?

makattack,

You read an awful lot of meaning into one short sentance.  I'm glad you know so much about me.  Nothing changes the fact that a 10 billion barrel oil field off of the California coast will only provide about 1.5 years worth of oil for us.  Then what? 

Personally, I'd prefer to let the market come up with a solution ONCE WE HAVE AN ACTUAL PROBLEM WITH OIL. It's amazing how well the market responds to needs.

We do have a problem with oil.  Look at who we buy it from and where it has to be shipped through to get to us.  I would much rather depend on some other form of energy produced within our borders and under our control.  If you want to trust OPEC, feel free.  I don't.  If you want to trust a totally open, unguarded supply chain that is open to attack, feel free.  I don't.


jfruser,

You make a more logical attack on my statement than makattack does.   Would you agree with me if I said that the oil fields off our coasts, on the north slope and what is contained in the Rockies oil shale is a finite resource?  What do we do when that finite resource runs out?  My problems with oil relate solely to the fact that we buy the majority of what we use overseas, it is vulnerable while being shipped, and we don't have enough of it here within our borders to make us self sufficient. 

[makattak]

makattack,

You read an awful lot of meaning into one short sentance.  I'm glad you know so much about me.  Nothing changes the fact that a 10 billion barrel oil field off of the California coast will only provide about 1.5 years worth of oil for us.  Then what? 
 

We do have a problem with oil.  Look at who we buy it from and where it has to be shipped through to get to us.  I would much rather depend on some other form of energy produced within our borders and under our control.  If you want to trust OPEC, feel free.  I don't.  If you want to trust a totally open, unguarded supply chain that is open to attack, feel free.  I don't.


jfruser,

You make a more logical attack on my statement than makattack does.   Would you agree with me if I said that the oil fields off our coasts, on the north slope and what is contained in the Rockies oil shale is a finite resource?  What do we do when that finite resource runs out?  My problems with oil relate solely to the fact that we buy the majority of what we use overseas, it is vulnerable while being shipped, and we don't have enough of it here within our borders to make us self sufficient. 

Hmm... you claim I misrepresent what you said and then you repeat nearly verbatim what I characterized your argument as.

So, you DON'T suggest that we force everyone to pay for your new form of energy? Or was I mistaken on that?

[makattak]

Also, let me further say:

We will NEVER run out of oil. N-E-V-E-R.

What MAY happen is that if we do start "running out of oil" the price will go up.

When the price goes up, other options become more attractive.

In economics, we call that the "substitution effect". I'd prefer to let people choose their own substitutes once they become attractive in the market and not force people to pay for my own pet energy project.

[roo_ster]

jfruser,

You make a more logical attack on my statement than makattack does.   Would you agree with me if I said that the oil fields off our coasts, on the north slope and what is contained in the Rockies oil shale is a finite resource?  What do we do when that finite resource runs out?  My problems with oil relate solely to the fact that we buy the majority of what we use overseas, it is vulnerable while being shipped, and we don't have enough of it here within our borders to make us self sufficient. 

1. Yes, they are a finite resource.

2. In general, what will happen is what makattak describes, unless some green freak with political power uses gov't and the threat of death to force a different outcome.

In particular, I do not know (and do not much care*) which energy source replaces petroleum products.  That point is a couple of centuries out (8 generations or so, given current usage rates and ability to exploit what is there) unless some other source comes online that is both cheaper per unit energy and superior is some significant way (portability, etc.)



[* I really don't worry much about "oil running out" in the big sense.  makatak explained why: when the price approaches a certain point, substitutes will be more attractive and eventually take over from petroleum the same way petroleum took over from whale oil.  Also, anyone who took an astronomy course knows that eventually, the Sun will run out of hydrogen.  Why no great BFD over that?  It has about the same effect on us at this point in history as does running out of oil.]


Your worry about our "oil imports from overseas" is overwrought, IMO.  We import more from Canada than we do from the entire Persian Gulf.  While Hugo Chavez might rail against the USA, he will no more stop selling us oil than he will cut off his dangly bits.  Same thing with Mexico.  They need our dollars more than we need their oil.

Matter of fact, every source in the W Hemisphere is about as secure as any resource can be, which amounts to 46% of total petro imports, 27% of total petro used.

If we count all sources I would consider "secure" (excludes any Asian, ME, African source), the number bumps to 49% of all petro imports, 29% of total petro used, or 71% of "secure imported" & domestic petro.

So, discounting the Rocky Mtn oil shale and the Canadian oil sands, new oil fields like those off the Cali coast can cover a significant portion of the 29% of our imported oil that is not as secure as we'd like.  The postulated 5% of annual oil use from the Cali field would be a little over 1/6 of the proportion of our "insecure import" gap.  Toss in another such find in the parts of the Gulf of Mexico where we are currently barred from exploitation, and you are 1/3 of the way there. 




http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_a.htm

Code: [Select]

Source (thousands of bbl oil & such annually)       2008             2008_pct_imported         2008_pct_total_(58%_imported)
Annual Total U.S. Imports                           4711238          100%                      58%
Non-OPEC Countries                                  2530488          54%                       31%
OPEC Countries                                      2180750          46%                       27%
Canada                                              899935           19%                       11%
Persian Gulf Countries                              868516           18%                       11%
Saudi Arabia                                        560705           12%                       7%
Mexico                                              475545           10%                       6%
Venezuela                                           435769           9%                        5%
Nigeria                                             362263           8%                        4%
Iraq                                                229300           5%                        3%
Algeria                                             200192           4%                        2%
Angola                                              187761           4%                        2%
Russia                                              169415           4%                        2%
Virgin Islands                                      117191           2%                        1%
Brazil                                              94261            2%                        1%
United Kingdom                                      85415            2%                        1%
Ecuador                                             80714            2%                        1%
Kuwait                                              76988            2%                        1%
Colombia                                            73238            2%                        1%
Netherlands                                         61142            1%                        1%
Chad                                                38080            1%                        0%
Libya                                               37467            1%                        0%
Norway                                              37303            1%                        0%
France                                              32468            1%                        0%
Belgium                                             31472            1%                        0%
Aruba                                               31341            1%                        0%
Equatorial Guinea                                   28289            1%                        0%
Azerbaijan                                          27152            1%                        0%
Congo (Brazzaville)                                 24694            1%                        0%
Trinidad and Tobago                                 23268            0%                        0%
Gabon                                               21430            0%                        0%
Italy                                               19423            0%                        0%
Germany                                             19192            0%                        0%
Korea                                               17657            0%                        0%
Argentina                                           17595            0%                        0%
Spain                                               16370            0%                        0%
Australia                                           12880            0%                        0%
Peru                                                12172            0%                        0%
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China                                               5628             0%                        0%
Egypt                                               5605             0%                        0%
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Cameroon                                            5341             0%                        0%
Thailand                                            5148             0%                        0%
Lithuania                                           4891             0%                        0%
Kazakhstan                                          4466             0%                        0%
Netherlands Antilles                                3732             0%                        0%
Japan                                               3421             0%                        0%
Estonia                                             3410             0%                        0%
Ivory Coast (Cote d'Ivore)                          3298             0%                        0%
Tunisia                                             3114             0%                        0%
Portugal                                            2989             0%                        0%
Turkey                                              2827             0%                        0%
Malaysia                                            2789             0%                        0%
Ukraine                                             2756             0%                        0%
Bahama Islands                                      2610             0%                        0%
Jamaica                                             2439             0%                        0%
Latvia                                              2347             0%                        0%
Israel                                              2313             0%                        0%
Syria                                               2303             0%                        0%
China, Taiwan                                       2125             0%                        0%
India                                               2040             0%                        0%
Denmark                                             1731             0%                        0%
El Salvador                                         1667             0%                        0%
United Arab Emirates                                1474             0%                        0%
Bolivia                                             1239             0%                        0%
Ireland                                             1186             0%                        0%
Greece                                              1082             0%                        0%
Mauritania                                          995              0%                        0%
Costa Rica                                          957              0%                        0%
Belize                                              952              0%                        0%
Ghana                                               831              0%                        0%
Turkmenistan                                        809              0%                        0%
Singapore                                           649              0%                        0%
Bulgaria                                            635              0%                        0%
Cyprus                                              604              0%                        0%
New Zealand                                         571              0%                        0%
South Africa                                        511              0%                        0%
Brunei                                              356              0%                        0%
Panama                                              348              0%                        0%
Morocco                                             321              0%                        0%
Niue                                                313              0%                        0%
Pakistan                                            307              0%                        0%
Georgia                                             92               0%                        0%
Midway Islands                                      79               0%                        0%
Malta                                               67               0%                        0%
Senegal                                             65               0%                        0%
Romania                                             49               0%                        0%
Qatar                                               49               0%                        0%
Uruguay                                             37               0%                        0%
Poland                                              32               0%                        0%
Hungary                                             22               0%                        0%
Yemen                                                                0%                        0%
Tonga                                                                0%                        0%
Togo                                                                 0%                        0%
Switzerland                                                          0%                        0%
Swaziland                                                            0%                        0%
Spratly Islands                                                      0%                        0%
Slovakia                                                             0%                        0%
Puerto Rico                                                          0%                        0%
Philippines                                                          0%                        0%
Papua New Guinea                                                     0%                        0%
Namibia                                                              0%                        0%
Kyrgyzstan                                                           0%                        0%
Hong Kong                                                            0%                        0%
Guinea                                                               0%                        0%
Croatia                                                              0%                        0%
Cook Islands                                                         0%                        0%
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Chile                                                                0%                        0%
Burma                                                                0%                        0%
Benin                                                                0%                        0%
Barbados                                                             0%                        0%
Bahrain                                                              0%                        0%
Austria                                                              0%                        0%
Albania                                                              0%                        0%


[De Selby]

Yep-long term economic health is every corporate exec goal.  That's why we can rely on them to plan energy responsibly for the future, just like they planned all those investment portfolios.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

We do have a problem with oil.  Look at who we buy it from and where it has to be shipped through to get to us.  I would much rather depend on some other form of energy produced within our borders and under our control.  If you want to trust OPEC, feel free.  I don't.  If you want to trust a totally open, unguarded supply chain that is open to attack, feel free.  I don't.

You make a more logical attack on my statement than makattack does.   Would you agree with me if I said that the oil fields off our coasts, on the north slope and what is contained in the Rockies oil shale is a finite resource?  What do we do when that finite resource runs out?  My problems with oil relate solely to the fact that we buy the majority of what we use overseas, it is vulnerable while being shipped, and we don't have enough of it here within our borders to make us self sufficient. 

Seems to me that you would benefit from learning just where most of our oil comes from.  Do this before preaching to us just how bad out oil situation is.

[dm1333]

Headless Thompson Gunner,

Since the computer chose to send my first response off into the ether this response is going to be much shorter.  I have a pretty good idea of where our oil comes from.  I was the guy who provided the link to the EIA that jfruser used in his last post. 

Off the top of my head, oil accounts for about 40% of our overall energy use.  We import about 70% of the oil that we use.  We import the most from Canada (18%), then from Persian Gulf area (16% from something like 5 nations there), about 11% from Venezuela and 10% from Mexico.  Feel free to peruse the internet and correct me if I am wrong, like I said I am taking these figures from memory.

Of the oil that we use, 70% goes towards transportation, 28% towards making "things", and 2% towards generating electricity.  The vast majority of our electrical power comes from coal, natural gas and nuclear power.  We have lots of coal and natural gas.  Why we don't have more nuclear power is a subject for a whole different thread.  Personally I'm all for it.  This is also why I know that the lights aren't going off if our oil supply from the Persian Gulf is interrupted.

jfruser made a few points that I would like to address.  One is that we get oil from Mexico and Venezuela and he thinks that they are secure sources of oil.  I don't believe that they are as secure as he thinks. If the government didn't think interuppting our oil supply would be a problem why do we have a strategic reserve?  He also said  "Toss in another such find in the parts of the Gulf of Mexico where we are currently barred from exploitation".  I am all for exploration both in the US and off of our coasts.  I just don't want to count on undiscovered reserves until they are actually discovered.  This is a problem within the oil industry, depending on oil or reporting oil that has not been discovered.  I wish I could depend on money I haven't discovered yet in my bank account but that would be a little silly.  Here is a link to what I am talking about.

http://www.daviesand.com/Perspectives/Forest_Products/Oil_Reserves/

Is what I have stated above preaching, or something resembling facts?  I'd be happy to engage in a discussion with anybody here but it has to be a two way discussion based on what the posters are writing. 

So, you DON'T suggest that we force everyone to pay for your new form of energy? Or was I mistaken on that?

Yeah, mak, you are mistaken.  I read through my posts again.  No where in there did I state we need to start paying for a "new form of energy".  The only thing I would change is that I referred to oil as a source of energy.  I should have expanded on that.  Oil is a source of energy and also an important resource used to manufacture things.  Like the computers we are all using right now.  I'm pretty sure a computer made our of bamboo wouldn't work nearly as well.  The subject of petroleum really is much broader than what the OP had intended here, IMO.  I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you if you actually just responded to what I had been writing.  You also made some remarks to somebody else here about living in a mud hut with good intentions for heat.  Is it really necessary to be insulting to people?  Do you talk to people like that face to face?

[wquay]

Since there's a lot of chatter about where we get our oil from:

[makattak]

Yeah, mak, you are mistaken.  I read through my posts again.  No where in there did I state we need to start paying for a "new form of energy".  The only thing I would change is that I referred to oil as a source of energy.  I should have expanded on that.  Oil is a source of energy and also an important resource used to manufacture things.  Like the computers we are all using right now.  I'm pretty sure a computer made our of bamboo wouldn't work nearly as well.  The subject of petroleum really is much broader than what the OP had intended here, IMO.  I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you if you actually just responded to what I had been writing.  You also made some remarks to somebody else here about living in a mud hut with good intentions for heat.  Is it really necessary to be insulting to people?  Do you talk to people like that face to face?

I will quote your statement back to you then:

I'd rather depend on some other form of energy that we produce here in the US.

Now if you are not suggesting the government take some action in order to bring about that result, I haven't the slightest idea what you are saying.

If you are just wishing that were the case, I have no problem with it. Wish away.

Your statement, in a thread about the administration attacking oil as an energy resource, implies you think the government SHOULD take action to stop people from using oil.

If you don't, I apologize that I characterized you statement that way.

Also, though, if you didn't mean that, what the heck do you mean? Your statements seem to say "We need to do something to get away from oil" and then you say that's not what you mean.

Is there a limited amount of oil in the world. Perhaps. It will never run out though. (Please see my previous post).

What the heck is it you are saying if you aren't saying the government needs to do something about our oil usage and the oil we import from other countries?

You have statistics: that's nice, but what bearing do they have on this discussion?

[roo_ster]

dm133:

Read the source I quoted.  We don't import 70% of our oil, but only 58%.  And that 58% is an inflated figure when discussing energy since it includes all petroleum products, not just those used for energy of some sort: plastics, lubes, etc.  I doubt very highly we are importing oil to burn in power plants from Hungary, for example.


Also, if Chavez & the Mexicans don't want to sell us their oil, the only real option they have is to not sell any oil to anyone.  See the Dilbert strip above and meditate on the term, "fungible."

The SPR predates Hugo Chavez's significance on the world stage, therefore HC was not the reason the SPR was created.  Heck, the SPR predates the bellicose mullahs in Iran (or, at least their rise to secular power).

The SPR is there to mitigate the effect of ANY disruption.  It has been used to effect the market, but hte real reason it exists is so that we can still provide our fighting forces with fuel in case of some disruption during time of war.


The existence of petroleum in the parts of the Gulf of Mexico Congress has declared forbidden to exploitation (by US companies) are interesting enough to foreign countries to have them sniffing around. 

But, that is chump change relative to the previously mentioned oil shale & tar sands.  We could be independent from foreign oil if we wanted to be. 

But here's the kicker: it makes no sense to do so at this time.  The tar sands & oil shale aren't going anywhere.  When the last drop is pumped from under Saudi sand and the Saudis go back to riding camels instead of Rolls Royces, it will make sense...or when the market for oil makes a persistent rise in price per bbl.

Then the USA & Canada become net EXPORTERS of oil to those markets that consume the bulk of Persian Gulf oil (far east).

[wquay]

But, that is chump change relative to the previously mentioned oil shale & tar sands.  We could be independent from foreign oil if we wanted to be. 

But here's the kicker: it makes no sense to do so at this time.  The tar sands & oil shale aren't going anywhere.  When the last drop is pumped from under Saudi sand and the Saudis go back to riding camels instead of Rolls Royces, it will make sense...or when the market for oil makes a persistent rise in price per bbl.

Then the USA & Canada become net EXPORTERS of oil to those markets that consume the bulk of Persian Gulf oil (far east).

I ran into an old mining engineer from my school today. He complained about restrictions on the development of oil shale in Colorado, and then after talking some more about the costs in terms of electricity, water, and pollution, he agreed that maybe it wasn't such a bad thing after all.

Nuclear makes a heck of a lot more sense than oil shale.

[Werewolf]

Nuclear makes a heck of a lot more sense than oil shale.

As an ex-USN Nuclear Reactor Operator (ET) I agree completely. But we'll have the same problem with fission reactors we have with oil. Fissile material is finite, eventually it will run out. In addition as far as I know there are only small amounts available in the US so we become as dependent of foreign sources of uranium as we are on oil.

All nuclear does is delay the inevitable.

The real solution is fusion power, though, I am beginning to doubt that that problem will ever be solved. The braniacs have been trying since the early 70's and still no breakthru.

A workable fusion reactor essentially means keeping a little piece of the sun in a bottle (currently a magnetic one). Tough problem.

[roo_ster]

Nuclear makes a heck of a lot more sense than oil shale.

To generate electricity? No doubt.

To move your vehicle? No so much.

[dm1333]

makattack,

I think part of the problem here is that you are assuming that anybody who says we might have a problem with oil is automatically against the use of it. 

Do I think the government should be throwing up roadblocks to us using oil?  Yes, and no. I laughed my ass off last year watching the GOP faithful chanting "Drill baby drill" and I still laugh my ass off when I read things about how solar and wind power are the solution to all of our problems.  I think I'm more of a T. Boone Pickens kind of guy.  Maybe.    How's that for an answer!

Our way of life, so far, has been built on cheap oil.  Cheap oil is starting to run out.  I also doubt that there is enough cheap oil off of our coasts to supply us for more than a few years.  My interest in the subject started a long time ago in school when I had to choose between geology and geography.  I chose the latter because I thought it would serve me better as an intelligence officer in the military.  What a silly idea that was!  Plans changed, but I am in the military and a large portion of my job revolves around security and infrastructure.   Which is why I have doubts about the supply of cheap oil that people seem to believe is just one test well away from discovery, the security of our oil supplies and the security of our transportation infrastructure. 

What I don't know enough about is what our world would be like if we had to depend on expensive oil.  I'm not sure anybody really knows enough about that but I'd be willing to listen.

I'm also three days away from having the movers show up to pack up all of my petroleum based junk and drive it cross country in a diesel powered rig so I can live amongst all the fluffy bunnies types in California who want solar and wind power.  They just don't want it in the Mojave desert or Altamont Pass or in their state at all.  So you may not hear a whole lot on the subject from me because I have to get some of my toys like my quad and motorcycle ready to be shipped.

Werewolf,

The Navy is pretty heavily involved in fusion research and I think if anybody can solve that problem it would be the Navy.  A lot of my good opinion of nuclear power comes from being a Navy vet myself. 

jfruser,

Batteries are only part of the problem with electric cars.  I have seen a few articles lately on nano technology and electric motors.  We might be inching closer to viable electric cars but I don't see us hauling heavy loads with electric powered rigs yet.

[Perd Hapley]

I laughed my ass off last year watching the GOP faithful chanting "Drill baby drill"

I'm not terribly faithful, but I guessed I missed something.  What's so funny about "Drill baby drill"?

[dm1333]

They should have been chanting "Explore, baby, explore" or "Develop technology, develop".  I think a lot of people got their knowledge of the oil industry and exploration from watching the beginning of Beverly Hillbillies.

[roo_ster]

I'm not terribly faithful, but I guessed I missed something.  What's so funny about "Drill baby drill"?

Well, folks who refer to big-R Republicans as "the faithful" are likely channeling Michael Kinsley and his sentiment that they are "poor, uneducated, and easily led." 

And when a whole lot of folks you label as dumb chant, well, anything, it makes those who consider themselves well-educated and nuanced to the nth degree laugh at them.

So, it would not have mattered if they had chanted MacBeth's witches incantation from memory after a good give-and-take on relativistic physics.  They are dumb & funny because we think they are dumb and funny.

[dm1333]

Well, folks who refer to big-R Republicans as "the faithful" are likely channeling Michael Kinsley and his sentiment that they are "poor, uneducated, and easily led." 

And when a whole lot of folks you label as dumb chant, well, anything, it makes those who consider themselves well-educated and nuanced to the nth degree laugh at them.

So, it would not have mattered if they had chanted MacBeth's witches incantation from memory after a good give-and-take on relativistic physics.  They are dumb & funny because we think they are dumb and funny.

 

[dm1333]

http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/2006/06/oil-shale-development-imminent.html

I have recently noticed an increase in oil shale coverage in the media, so this seems like a good time to take a look at the potential for oil shale to meet a portion of our energy wants (as opposed to “needs”).

First, what is oil shale? Wikipedia has a nice overview on oil shale here. Briefly, oil shale started off just like the plant material that was ultimately converted into oil, but the material was not subjected to high enough temperatures and pressures to convert it completely to oil. But it is feasible to complete the process that nature started and convert oil shale into oil and natural gas by heating it. Given that the U.S. has an estimated oil shale reserve of a trillion barrels or so, it is not surprising that billions of dollars have gone into figuring out how to economically extract the oil from oil shale.

My Resume

http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/2005/11/my-resume.html

Turns out we are closer to electric powered heavy rigs than I thought. I don't agree with everything you read in blogs but this one has some good links to companies building electric trucks.

Five years ago, when I first got involved with peak oil, electric and hybrid trucks weren't even a concept. A little over a year ago, when I first posted on the subject they still seemed fairly exotic. Now, in 2009, an amazing amount of progress has taken place, and the technology for both EV and HEV (hybrid EV) trucks is rapidly filtering into the mainstream. It's becoming increasingly clear that peak oil will have little impact on tasks such as local trucking, garbage collection, and grid maintenance. Peak oil is simply occurring too slow compared to the rate of truck innovation and dissemination.

http://peakoildebunked.blogspot.com/

[MicroBalrog]

Here's the thing about "oil running out".

It's not going to run out overnight. It's not going to be $50 per barrel one day, and $100 the next.  Prices are going to be rising slowly if oil ever starts running out.

Just like the jump in oil prices last year led to more investments in alternative energy and cleaner vehicles so does any rise in the price of oil. The average modern-day American truck is more fuel-efficient (sometimes turning twice the amount of miles per gallon) than an average car in 1975. A Hummer H3 does more miles per gallon than the average 1975 passenger car.

As technology develops, electric cars become more viable. Alternative fuels become more viable. Nuclear power becomes more viable. It's part of the natural course of technological progress.

We're going to be fine.

[buzz_knox]

Yep-long term economic health is every corporate exec goal.  That's why we can rely on them to plan energy responsibly for the future, just like they planned all those investment portfolios.

Instead, you rely on the government that created the situation where the portfolios could fail (forcing banks to make loans likely to fail, allowing credit default swaps, and not dealing with Freddie and Fannie's gross accounting "irregularities"), and even tried to make them fail more quickly (by attempting to increase Fannie and Freddie's lending authority when both were going under).

I work with quite of few of those energy corporate execs.  Reduction of consumption, increased efficiency, cleaner power, and all the other buzz words for environmentalists are what the execs live by.  The biggest obstacle to achieving those goals?  The environmentalists and the gov't that enables them.

[Monkeyleg]

The biggest obstacle to achieving those goals?  The environmentalists and the gov't that enables them.

Hallelujah. Battery-powered cars are a great idea, but we're going to need  to generate gazillions of megawatts of electricity to charge the batteries, and wind turbines won't cut it. Nuclear would, but the environmentalists block new power plants in every state where they're proposed.

[De Selby]

buzz, you've got a bit of a contradiction there - half the examples you cite are the government failing to regulate, rather than the government forcing businesses to do some bad thing.  "Allowing credit default swaps" is not government interference; neither is "allowing a company to make loans."  Yet you rightly recognise those practices as contributing to the problem.

Those would seem to be prime examples of where "the free market" actor didn't meet the needs of anyone besides...the free market actor, and even then did so poorly.

Look folks, being committed to the free market should not mean "whatever a corporation says about government policy must be true because the corporation is private".   There's rarely a big ticket bargain where everything the salesman says is true and the first price quoted is the best possible deal for you. 

Why would you treat energy production any differently than another free market bargain?  In other words, why wouldn't you automatically critique and be highly skeptical of the salesman(executive)'s claims, and assume that he's maximizing his personal gain without regard for your own? 

[MicroBalrog]

  "Allowing credit default swaps" is not government interference; neither is "allowing a company to make loans."  Yet you rightly recognise those practices as contributing to the problem.

You forget FM was a government-sponsored enterprise.