Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: makattak on December 22, 2010, 04:11:16 PM
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As most of you know next year is 2011, the anniversary of the adoption of the venerable 1911.
I do not yet own a 1911 (I know, heresy) and intend to make next year the time to remedy that.
Now, I will be asking this as a gift for my birthday, so I don't want it amazingly pricey. (I'm looking at you, Les Baer and Wilson.)
So, what guns would you suggest would make a good first 1911 that won't break the bank?
For example, Para's GI Expert looks like it might fit the bill for me.
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So, what guns would you suggest would make a good first 1911 that won't break the bank?
My first pistol was a used Springfield 1911-A1 milspec that I picked up for a few bills. I've been nothing but happy with it.
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My first pistol was a used Springfield 1911-A1 milspec that I picked up for a few bills. I've been nothing but happy with it.
Ah, thank you for reminding me of another stipulation. Being that next year is an auspicious year ;), I'm hoping for a new gun, made in 2011.
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Yep, I have one of those too. Perfectly reliable. And the lawyer-lock can be completely removed and disabled if you so wish. And you can even replace the mainspring cover if you don't like the keyhole.
The only downside is the GI sights. Patently absurd someone should be expected to use them. :P
It's a great first 1911 to learn how the recoil spring and the bushing all go to- OH $#!+ =D
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Kimbers and Colts and Springfield Armorys occupy the beginning of the serious 1911 ladder. They can run $500 to $1000or more, depending on what you want. If that's in your budget, start looking there. Stick to the 5" models without any do-hickeys like light rails or lasers or bayonet lugs, and you'll be alright.
If that's too much coin, then there are Rock Islands for $300 to $500, but I'd steer clear of them if at all possible. Save some more pennies and put that money towards a good low-end Springfield.
If you have more than $1000, then Dan Wesson is the way to go. They tend to have a lot of the quality and fitment of the semi customs like Baer and Wilson and Brown (actually, they use a lot of Ed Brown for the small parts). DW makes some way, way good guns. What you lose out on with DW relative to the true high end is the opportunity to customize the details the way you would with the true custom/semicustom brands.
Or, if you have $1k plus, you could by that $500 entry-level Springfield and spend the rest of your quid customizing it to your liking. Not a bad option, really. You'd start with a solid frame and slide, and the rest would be up to you.
I have no direct experience with any of the Para Ordinance guns. Anyone who would make a double action 1911 just doesn't get it, IMO, and I won't be sending any of my money their way.
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http://www.kimberamerica.com/products/pistols/custom/royal_II/
I don't currently own a 1911 either...but the one above was the first one I ever owned. I would buy another. It was a good shooter and was reliable with Wilson mags and most loads. Customization can be endless with 1911's (if you let it). I never had the will to accept one as it was, and I can't afford a Wilson, so I went over to the dark side (Sig 220). But I like the idea of getting another to celebrate the centennial.
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It's a great first 1911 to learn how the recoil spring and the bushing all go to- OH $#!+ =D
Even more fun after you've customized it and it now uses a 22lb recoil spring instead of the stock 16.5. >:D The magazine body makes a great improvised take down tool.
As for a budget NIB 2011 1911, I'll get back to you, I've been out of the loop on all the different (non-Colt/S.A./Les Baer/Kimber) manufacturers and their pricing.
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Springfield has their newest offering, the Rangemaster, that looks VERY nice.
Less features than the Loaded, more features than the GI or MilSpec.
The biggest "pro" to me is the lack of forward slide serrations. Those things chew up holsters.
The biggest "con" to me is the target-style adjustable rear sight. I favor fixed combat style sights.
All in all it looks like a great value and something that the 1911 community has wanted for a while.
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If that's too much coin, then there are Rock Islands for $300 to $500, but I'd steer clear of them if at all possible.
Why?
I often hear this on the Interwebs, but it is very rare that there are any specifics as to what exactly is wrong with Rock Islands. I have two. One I bought new, one used. The biggest problem I had with them has been crappy springs, especially the sear spring. I bought Colt sear springs and Wolff for the rest and they have been running just fine ever since. The second biggest was the stock magazines. The feed lips seem to be weak and bend out over time. One bent out so far that a round jumped out every time I popped it in the gun. Bought some Chip McCormick mags, tossed the bad ones and the problem went away.
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Or, if you have $1k plus, you could by that $500 entry-level Springfield and spend the rest of your quid customizing it to your liking. Not a bad option, really. You'd start with a solid frame and slide, and the rest would be up to you.
This may be your best option in the long run. I have a production Springfield TRP that with no customization is as reliable as anything out there, but it cost me $1200.
I also have a Combat Commander that I got on my 18th birthday as a stock gun (they were around $200 back then). Around 6-7 years ago I sent it to Don Williams for a full combat overhaul (or whatever he called it at the time). I think it was around $500-600 for this very complete rework. It is as fine a gun as you could ask for now, and I would stack it up to a Springfield Custom Shop TRP Professional any day of the week.
So long story longer, you could get any of the well known and solid "basic" 1911s out there, shoot it as-is for a while, then when you have some coin to spare, have it reworked for "street carry". It'll run you from around $200-$700 depending on what all you want done, but you can get a lot of basic reliability work done at the lower end of the scale. Just keep in mind any of the good gunsmiths will have your pistol for six months to a year.
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SW1911
For a 1911 that works out of the box, has the nice & useful features most have come to expect(0), is quality-built, and reasonably priced, I would run with a Smith & Wesson 1911. I always admired the build quality of their metal semi-autos (get thee behind me, Sigma!) and thought a 1911 by them would be great. Well, they are. I own one full-sized and when funds allow I am getting a scandium-alloy true Commander length.
My SW1911(2) is my preferred CCW.
Full-sized new SW1911s can still be bought new in the mid-$750 range. Add ~$100 for (soon to be mine) scandium commander.
Springfield Armory is not up to S&W quality, and neither are the newer Kimbers(1). My wife has an Officer's sized alloy 1911 made by SA in 9mm. It is OK, but not the build quality of the S&W. Cost is about the same, though.
Those are the only two I currently own. I hear good things about the Remington 1911.
Oh, almost forgot STI. I have shot several of those and I am very impressed with build quality. Their basic steel single-stack full-sized 1911 is not too much more than the SW1911 and would be worth a look-see.
(0) Only two questionable features are the FLGR and the front cocking serrations. The do not effect function, though.
(1) Early Kimbers were good quality, though.
(2) List of all customizations: Thin-sized Chip McCormick cocobolo grips, Trijicon tritium night sights, re-crown bl, grip tape on front of mag well and behind rear cocking serrations for more grip. Runs great with Wilson 47D mags (came from factory with two).
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Why?
I often hear this on the Interwebs, but it is very rare that there are any specifics as to what exactly is wrong with Rock Islands. I have two. One I bought new, one used. The biggest problem I had with them has been crappy springs, especially the sear spring. I bought Colt sear springs and Wolff for the rest and they have been running just fine ever since. The second biggest was the stock magazines. The feed lips seem to be weak and bend out over time. One bent out so far that a round jumped out every time I popped it in the gun. Bought some Chip McCormick mags, tossed the bad ones and the problem went away.
Eh. I've seen issues where the RIA frame holes were drilled incorrectly, so you couldn't replace the lockwork or mainspring housing without some major fitting. And I think that the better brands are more likely to get the feed ramp, barrel ramp, and throat done up right, which improves reliability when using hollow point ammo.
I suppose none of this matters unless you like to tinker with your guns, which I do. If you just want to buy it and shoot it with ball ammo and never make any changes, then I suspect a RIA would be just fine.
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So, what guns would you suggest would make a good first 1911 that won't break the bank?
If I were shopping, I would be looking at a Springfield Mil Spec or GI.
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Speaking of tinkering, mak, if you have the interest, (and the time, and the money, definitely the money), then building your own 1911 is lots of fun.
Step right this way and take a gander down this here rabit hole...
>:D
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Eh. I've seen issues where the RIA frame holes were drilled incorrectly, so you couldn't replace the lockwork or mainspring housing without some major fitting. And I think that the better brands are more likely to get the feed ramp, barrel ramp, and throat done up right, which improves reliability when using hollow point ammo.
I suppose none of this matters unless you like to tinker with your guns, which I do. If you just want to buy it and shoot it with ball ammo and never make any changes, then I suspect a RIA would be just fine.
I have replaced MSH on both of mine with curved ones (I like the feel of it better) without issue. I have also replaced some of the lockwork without issue. Again, not because of any problems, but just to tinker. Everything fit just fine.
The one I got used is an ealrier production run and it did have a minor problem in the magwell. The newer one was just fine. I also have a Charles Daly, and that had way more issues than the RI. I think they worked out a lot of the kinks over time and the ones they sell now are quite good.
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I have three Kimbers, all made before QC slipped. From the ones I've seen lately, I wouldn't rush to buy one.
STI's have a very good reputation. If I had the money for a Kimber, I'd spend a bit more and buy Colt.
A buddy has a Caspian that just shoots like a tack driver. Don't know what it cost, though.
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These are alarming reports about current Kimbers. I picked one up a few years ago at one of the local shows, and it has been pretty good for me. It is not the equal of my Combat Commander that I picked up in the early 80's, though.
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I have no direct experience with any of the Para Ordinance guns. Anyone who would make a double action 1911 just doesn't get it, IMO, and I won't be sending any of my money their way.
???
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As most of you know next year is 2011, the anniversary of the adoption of the venerable 1911.
I do not yet own a 1911 (I know, heresy) and intend to make next year the time to remedy that.
Now, I will be asking this as a gift for my birthday, so I don't want it amazingly pricey. (I'm looking at you, Les Baer and Wilson.)
So, what guns would you suggest would make a good first 1911 that won't break the bank?
For example, Para's GI Expert looks like it might fit the bill for me.
I hear good things about Springfield's offerings, especially the GI/Milspec ones which are inexpensive, permitting you to get work done to your own specs on it. I owned a used Kimber Custom Classic Stainless which was my very favorite gun for a while. It came with target sights which were damaged by the previous owner, so I had them replaced with tritium fixed sights (yes, it was ugly. No, I didn't care).
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You can buy a Colt 1991 or a Colt Series 70 Reissue for well under $1000. The MSRP on the Colt Model O1918 (the current WW1 replica) is $999. If you're looking to buy a 100-year anniversary pistol, it simply doesn't make any sense at all NOT to buy a Colt.
That said, I also own one of the Para GI Experts, and it's a fine example of a 1911. It's the first Para that is completely true to being a 1911 -- no ramped barrel. And it doesn't have Para's Power Extractor. I don't like the hammer or the cheesy plastic trigger with faux "lightening" holes in it, but those are things that Brownells can take care of in short order.
But it's still a truism that "If it isn't a Colt, it's just a copy."
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I've got a Kimber Custom II and a RIA FS. The only complaints abut the RAI have are the GI sights but I knew that going in with full intentions of upgrading the sights. The other issue with the RIA was the grip safety. The edges were very sharp. A few minutes with a file and a little polishing followed with with a little cold blue and it no longer chews up the web of my hand.
I like my Kimber I have used it quite a bit in IDPA and have probably close to 5000 rounds through it with no breakages.
I am also very happy with the RIA. I've only got abut 700-800 rounds through it and it has been solid as a rock and every bit as accurate as the Kimber as far as I am able to demonstrate. It feeds my HP defensive ammo of choice with 100% reliability so long as I don't try to use the RIA factory magazine. I use Kimber 7 round magazines in both of them.
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Rock Island Armory. Pimped out "tactical", "nickel" or "two tone" for under $500. Still leaves room for mags, holsters, etc.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_876/products_id/411538986
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_876/products_id/411538987
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???
Double action guns just don't do it for me.
The main beauty of a 1911 is its excellent single action trigger pull. Why would anyone mess with that?
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Para makes good stuff most of the time. Then one day you get the gun that was made on Friday out of the reject parts box while the Stanley Cup was on TV. I like their guns, the LDA does leave me a little cold though.
I 2nd the Dan Wesson recommendation for new factory. My DW is pre-CZ, supposedly better, do not know. I would say STI, but I have a personal allergy to STI, but if you have the $$$ then by all means get a 2011 from SVI.
Kimber that says Clackamas, Oregon on it is a good find.
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Although they seem to have improved a bit of late, Para quality still seems to be inconsistent.
Lots of folks like Springfields, but if you look on various boards quite a few people have to avail themselves of Springfield's warranty service.
Kimber quality seems to have gotten spotty of late, and the prices of their "upscale" guns are approaching Baer territory.
I have a Baer and I like it - a lot.
Wilson is, quite bluntly, overpriced. For some models, absurdly so.
Ed Brown makes very nice guns, but you're paying at least a $500 premium for the Ed Brown name.
Surprisingly, there have been quite a few reports of problems with the SIG 1911s, so I'd avoid those.
Colt? No way, no how. My experience with a Colt Jammamatic and Colt's warranty NON-service thoroughly soured me on guns with the prancing pony.
From what I've seen, the S&W 1911s are good bang for the buck - if you can put up with the stupid "gun may fire without magazine" warning engraved on the pistol. (There may be a scandium-framed Commander-size version in my future.)
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Heh... The one handgun I'm not parting with is my Norinco.
And it's got GI sights. I -like- the GI sights...
It's been worked a little, and is pretty decent on the reliability front. I use Chip McCormick 8 round mags, and they rawk.
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Double action guns just don't do it for me.
The main beauty of a 1911 is its excellent single action trigger pull. Why would anyone mess with that?
I'm not into DA autos either, but I thought the LDAs were quite a bit different from your conventional DA. Regardless, there's no sense in taking such an attitude toward a company that makes gazillions of single-action guns, and also offers some sorta-kinda double-action versions. What's the problem?
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I'm not into DA autos either, but I thought the LDAs were quite a bit different from your conventional DA. Regardless, there's no sense in taking such an attitude toward a company that makes gazillions of single-action guns, and also offers some sorta-kinda double-action versions. What's the problem?
The notion of a double action 1911 seems like complete folly to me. Para's interest in designing, building, and marketing such a thing turns me off to the whole brand.
It'd be like buying a high performance sports car, then having a mechanic install a governor to limit it to 35 mph. Or like buying a 5,000 square foot mansion, then hiring contractor to permanently wall off 4,000 SF so that it's not accessible. I'd wonder about the sanity of anyone doing this sort of thing, and while I'd respect their rights to do so, I'd still think they're weird and steer clear of them.
Maybe Para's proper normal 1911s are dandy guns, I dunno. As I said, I've no experience with Para's products, and no interest in purchasing one in the future. That's as far as it goes for me.
FTR, Sig turns me off to their 1911's too, with that odd looking shadow line on their slides. A 1911 should look like a 1911, not a Sig, even if it is made by Sig. Just my opinion, and bears no reflection on the quality of Sig's 1911s.
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Luckily Sigs 1911s bear no reflection on the quality of Sigs in general. >:D
The LDA can be made to have an exquisite trigger pull for a DA.
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Colt 1991 here. Been nothing but happy with it. It can shoot better then I can.
Now the one I was issued in Germany, I could practically disassemble merely but flicking my wrist side ways. Loose as a goose, accurate as all hell though.
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If that's too much coin, then there are Rock Islands for $300 to $500, but I'd steer clear of them if at all possible. Save some more pennies and put that money towards a good low-end Springfield.
I've seen issues where the RIA frame holes were drilled incorrectly, so you couldn't replace the lockwork or mainspring housing without some major fitting.
If you want a no frills 1911, a RIA is hard to beat for the price. And, yes, some of the holes might be drilled out of spec. A buddy of mine bought one and fitted a beavertail safety. He ended up having to weld one of the holes shut and had to redrill it to make everything align properly. Still a nice gun though.
I might pick one up myself just to tinker with + you can get one in .38 super for under 500 bones.
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I've had very good luck with my springfield loaded model. Can't say enough good things about it. The only downside as someone else mentioned already are the slide serrations- they are razor sharp and chew up holsters and hands. Someday I'll get around to stoning off the sharp edges and having my gun reblued or duracoated.
A Colt is on my eventual 'to buy' list, a Kimber is not.
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I put a Norinco through the ringer once, I had ten GI mags loaded up and went through them as fast as I could, and my buddy reloaded them as fast as he could. We took turns loading and firing and put 500 rounds through it without a problem. They may not be pretty but the Norkers are solid enough.
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I have three Rock Islands.
One I tore down and rebuilt to learn the platform.
One I've put about 35,000 rounds through stock
One that is currenttly in pieces awaiting time and parts for another rebuild.
All three of mine are in spec and have been great values that did everything I asked of them. I would buy one over a lower end Springfield any day. I also routinely recomend the brand to friends looking for a "budget" 1911. Great guns.
BUT
If I wanted an "centenial" 1911 built in 2011 (I do actually and am saving my pennies for it) a Colt is really the only choice. I want to snag one of the WWI repros, built in 2011, for mine.
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The notion of a double action 1911 seems like complete folly to me. Para's interest in designing, building, and marketing such a thing turns me off to the whole brand.
It'd be like buying a high performance sports car, then having a mechanic install a governor to limit it to 35 mph. Or like buying a 5,000 square foot mansion, then hiring contractor to permanently wall off 4,000 SF so that it's not accessible. I'd wonder about the sanity of anyone doing this sort of thing, and while I'd respect their rights to do so, I'd still think they're weird and steer clear of them.
Maybe Para's proper normal 1911s are dandy guns, I dunno. As I said, I've no experience with Para's products, and no interest in purchasing one in the future. That's as far as it goes for me.
Your loss. Para makes fine 1911s at prices below what their quality level should cost. (So does Colt, for that matter.)
There IS a valid reason for a double action "1911," and Colt is coming out with one for the same reason Para-Ordnance did: police sales. The vast majority of police departments in the U.S. and Canada don't allow officers to carry 1911s, either for duty or for off-duty, because the powers that be are terrified of the single action trigger and the sight of a cop carrying a pistol with a cocked hammer. Never mind that a Glock has a cocked striker inside -- they can't see that, so they aren't scared of it.
So Para-Ordnance designed a (sort of) double action variant of the 1911 that allows the pistol to be carried with the hammer down (requires it, in fact) while NOT having the abysmally heavy first shot trigger pull of conventional DA/SA or DOA pistols. The whole point was to make a pistol that would be acceptable to police departments that don't allow their officers to carry 1911s. I have a Para LDA and it's a fine pistol.
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Your loss. Para makes fine 1911s at prices below what their quality level should cost. (So does Colt, for that matter.)
There IS a valid reason for a double action "1911," and Colt is coming out with one for the same reason Para-Ordnance did: police sales. The vast majority of police departments in the U.S. and Canada don't allow officers to carry 1911s, either for duty or for off-duty, because the powers that be are terrified of the single action trigger and the sight of a cop carrying a pistol with a cocked hammer. Never mind that a Glock has a cocked striker inside -- they can't see that, so they aren't scared of it.
So Para-Ordnance designed a (sort of) double action variant of the 1911 that allows the pistol to be carried with the hammer down (requires it, in fact) while NOT having the abysmally heavy first shot trigger pull of conventional DA/SA or DOA pistols. The whole point was to make a pistol that would be acceptable to police departments that don't allow their officers to carry 1911s. I have a Para LDA and it's a fine pistol.
Colt gonna reintroduce the Double Eagle since it was such a hit the first time 'round?
How many PDs issue the Para LDA again?
I ask, only half-snarkily.
FTR, I see a lot of LEOs in Texas packing C&L 1911s.
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The one drawback to Para's that I've heard most about is reports of "soft slide steel."
I doubt the accuracy of this claim, but I've seen interesting internet reports that imply that Para deliberately makes their magazines sit too high in the mag well, which puts too much upwards pressure on the slide stop, causing some peening over time. This can be fixed by replacing the magazine catch and using quality aftermarket magazines, reportedly.
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Lots of good information here, checking out the Springfield GI and the RIA now.
I like the looks of the Remington 1911. Anyone have any experience with their entry into the 1911 market?
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I like the looks of the Remington 1911. Anyone have any experience with their entry into the 1911 market?
http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/showthread.php?t=420100&highlight=Remington
I generally consider Tuner's word to be 1911 law.
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http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/showthread.php?t=420100&highlight=Remington
I generally consider Tuner's word to be 1911 law.
1911Tuner is "da Man" for 1911s. That said, the report linked to above is ONE example.
There have been several reports on the M1911.ORG forum for the Remington, and it appears that quality control is either spotty, or there is none. (Sounds a lot like Taurus.) Some owners report good fit and finish, others say their guns are very rough.
It's also interesting that both Ithaca and Remington came out with 1911s at the same time. Ithaca was anxious to have M1911.ORG test theirs and write it up. John (the owner of M1911.ORG) has been trying to get a Remington for review since it was announced, and Remington has been stonewalling. That tells me a lot.
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1911Tuner is "da Man" for 1911s. That said, the report linked to above is ONE example.
There have been several reports on the M1911.ORG forum for the Remington, and it appears that quality control is either spotty, or there is none. (Sounds a lot like Taurus.) Some owners report good fit and finish, others say their guns are very rough.
It's also interesting that both Ithaca and Remington came out with 1911s at the same time. Ithaca was anxious to have M1911.ORG test theirs and write it up. John (the owner of M1911.ORG) has been trying to get a Remington for review since it was announced, and Remington has been stonewalling. That tells me a lot.
I've noticed (and wondered about) the lack of a review on m1911.org. I should been clearer on my link. My interest in the Remington 1911 waned when Tuner said:
The slide is, however. Rock Island/Armscorp learned that lesson the hard way, and have begun assembling their pistols with machined barstock slides. I suspect that Remington's slides are also cast, which is likely why thry didn't rate the guns for +P ammunition. If they stay in the game long enough, I expect that they'll soon learn the error of their ways.
Cast slides are a corner I wouldn't cut.
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I generally consider Tuner's word to be 1911 law.
werd.
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Shop used...I found a stainless Colt 1991A1 for under $500 that way (and sold it later :facepalm: )....you can get a lot of gun for the money in the used market....