Author Topic: the "net neutrality" FCC Court decision thread, I have no idea about this stuff  (Read 29885 times)

mtnbkr

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Regarding ISP choices...

I just read an article about a soon to be dead broadband service in my current hometown of Manassas, Va.  What I found interesting was that the loss of this one service will leave us with only two providers.  Comcast serves the entire city, while Verizon can provide FIOS or DSL to "most" of the city.  If you happen to be in an area not served by Verizon, your only choice is Comcast.

The service that is going away was a technologically inferior service that the city govt tried to operate after the private sector gave up on it.  Even though run by private sector, it was heavily subsidized prior to local govt's assumption.  Now the City is finally dumping it.

For those not in the area, Manassas is a fairly small city about 30 miles outside of DC.  If not for Northern Va's sprawl, we would be a tiny backwater town.

Chris

Nitrogen

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Quote from: mtnbkr
I must be talking to a wall.  I've said multiple times Comcast dicked around with my ENCRYPTED traffic.  They couldn't read or modify it, so they blocked it for BS reasons.

I didn't mean that the answer to the entire thread is encryption, it isn't.  It was the answer to the specific post I was replying to (being afraid of people snooping on your traffic)

I'm actually with you on this one, dude!
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mtnbkr

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Oh, gotcha.  I misread.

BTW, if anyone wants a recent example of the difficulties of running new lines, this is a good one: http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=600&sid=1927640

I used to work just down the street from where this happened.  I know for a fact traffic was an absolute nightmare during this event. 

Chris

gunsmith

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this is a great thread, I have not read the whole thing yet but I am really glad I asked! thanks!
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Nitrogen

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Now, it seems that the FCC is considering calling ISP's telecoms, which is their nuclear option:

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/04/fcc-next/
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Sergeant Bob

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Wow, I can't believe how many people just fall for government spew because it has a consumer friendly name and they may or may not have been screwed around by some >insert name< company.

Now that I think of it, I sure wish the government would pass a new law that would protect my firearms from being stolen. We could call it the "Firearm Owners Liability Protection and Child Safety Act". Golly, the world would just be so much better if the children were safe! Who could be against that?
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

Nitrogen

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Wow, I can't believe how many people just fall for government spew because it has a consumer friendly name and they may or may not have been screwed around by some >insert name< company.

Now that I think of it, I sure wish the government would pass a new law that would protect my firearms from being stolen. We could call it the "Firearm Owners Liability Protection and Child Safety Act". Golly, the world would just be so much better if the children were safe! Who could be against that?

It's not so much that I'm pro government, I just think it has its places, and this is one.  I'm also a professional in the industry (like mtnbkr) and work with this stuff every day.  It's as an industry professional I'm for regulation of the issue, not as someone pro-government.  I hate to put it this way, but you'll have to "trust us" on the issue.  I think all the best arguments have already been made, but the problem is, unless you work with the things everyday, it'shard toquantify just how big a deal it is.
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mtnbkr

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Wow, I can't believe how many people just fall for government spew because it has a consumer friendly name and they may or may not have been screwed around by some >insert name< company.

Now that I think of it, I sure wish the government would pass a new law that would protect my firearms from being stolen. We could call it the "Firearm Owners Liability Protection and Child Safety Act". Golly, the world would just be so much better if the children were safe! Who could be against that?

No, some of us have experience with this and with the companies in question and know exactly what will happen.  We also know how it can be accomplished.  Do you?

What would you do if your telephone service monitored your calls, only allowed you to call certain numbers, and disconnected your calls if you talked about topics they didn't agree with?  What if every telephone service did that?  Go without a phone? 

Chris

GigaBuist

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Wow, I can't believe how many people just fall for government spew because it has a consumer friendly name and they may or may not have been screwed around by some >insert name< company.

Just in case you're still missing it:  The people here most for going back to common carrier status or forcing net neutrality are the IT professionals that work with it all the time.  We know why they want this, what they have to do to make it happen, and where this finally leads to.  We've dealt with ISPs that aren't small shops like Comcast and Time-Warner.  The bigger guys don't pull this BS and there's no reason for the small guys to try it either.  Well, there is, but it's only because they don't want to take the proper approach to solving capacity issues, but we've been down that road already a couple of times.

The ISPs are common carriers.  Or at least they should be, guess it all changed under the Bush administration.  What a common carrier can and cannot do is rooted in laws that are hundreds of years old.

BTW: Having the FCC relabel ISPs as telecom and shoving them back solidly into common carrier status could  mean they'd have to open up their lines to competition.  They'd have to rent their lines out to other businesses that wanted to compete with them on service. This is a good thing.  Used to be able to pick and choose your DSL provider.  Not sure if that's even still the case.

Nitrogen

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DSL providers (at least real telcos, using DSL) have to.  COmcast and other carriers using other technologies (e.g. FIOS) currently don't.  I'm very happy with Verizon and FIOS, but it'd also be nice to get competition on that fiber, too.  I know that once there was competition for DSL service, I was a lot happier; I could choose the type of service I wanted.  It'd be nice to pay for pure speed and get minimal support as a geek, and not get all the value added services I don't want or need...
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GigaBuist

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I had a really nice DSL setup at my last apartment.  Usually they want you to have a working phone line but I found a company that would install it on a dead line.  When the install tech got there he asked if I was going to use a router and I said yes, pointed to the Cisco 600 series Ethernet router.

Him: "Uh? You're gonna figure that on your own, right?"
Me:  "Yeah, just make sure it works on your laptop and we're good."

Static IP, 768k up and down, uptime was awesome.  I even ran my own webserver in that apartment for years.  Was also my own SMTP server for justinbuist.org.  That was fun.

Sergeant Bob

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I think a lot of companies are aholes. However, I don't think it's a good idea to back more onerous and very non specific laws that can be interpreted however the current administration feels

No, some of us have experience with this and with the companies in question and know exactly what will happen.  We also know how it can be accomplished.  Do you?

What would you do if your telephone service monitored your calls, only allowed you to call certain numbers, and disconnected your calls if you talked about topics they didn't agree with?  What if every telephone service did that?  Go without a phone? 

Chris

No, I don't have experience with that. I have also never built a Yugo, but that doesn't mean I am unqualified to determine it is a piece of crap.

The law has a very favorable name though, so I guess it's alright.

Have has anyone read the bill?
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

Balog

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Have you? Have you read anything posted in this thread, for that matter?

Fed.gov gives certains immunities and subsidies to common carriers, that come with obligations. The CC's are trying to violate their side of the bargain while keeping all the good stuff. Are you seriously ok with that?
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mtnbkr

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Have has anyone read the bill?

There is no bill.  Net Neutrality is a concept, one that states an ISP should allow any IP traffic to flow over its network without undue constraint or control.  Much like your voice calls aren't monitored or molested (why hasn't anyone answered my questions related to traditional telephony?).

Wikipedia has a pretty decent writeup on the issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality

Chris

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There is no bill.  Net Neutrality is a concept, one that states an ISP should allow any IP traffic to flow over its network without undue constraint or control.  Much like your voice calls aren't monitored or molested (why hasn't anyone answered my questions related to traditional telephony?).

Wikipedia has a pretty decent writeup on the issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality

Chris

Well, then let me...

I'd love it if the telecoms would block phone access to/from certain locations.  Who needs to call the gunshop anyways, since we're linked via telepathy.  Also, I own a lot of string & two dixie cups, so I'll get by.

And, I do hope they listen in, so they know just when to screw up the connection, letting me think the other party is unavailable.  "Hon, sorry, but the operator says your 'Obama-hating racist doctor is unavailable at this time.'"


Regards,

roo_ster

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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What would you do if your telephone service monitored your calls, only allowed you to call certain numbers, and disconnected your calls if you talked about topics they didn't agree with?  
I'd fire 'em and hire someone else.

And yes, in circumstances like that there would always be someone else.  Service that bad just begs for a competitor to come along and eat you for lunch.

The existence of government-enforced monopolies is the only real threat here.  That seems to be the root of the issue, and there's no reason for it.  It would be much more productive to end this problem than to pile on new problems with the FCC overstepping its authority.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 07:50:15 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Balog

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There is only so much room in the physical pipes carrying cable for service. Until you can get around that there's going to be a monopoly, fed.gov enforced or not.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MicroBalrog

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There is only so much room in the physical pipes carrying cable for service. Until you can get around that there's going to be a monopoly, fed.gov enforced or not.

In an urban environment, there's no real reason to have a monopoly on phone and cable services.
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roo_ster

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I'd fire 'em and hire someone else.

And yes, in circumstances like that there would always be someone else.  Service that bad just begs for a competitor to come along and eat you for lunch.

The existence of government-enforced monopolies is the only real threat here.  That seems to be the root of the issue, and there's no reason for it.  It would be much more productive to end this problem than to pile on new problems with the FCC overstepping its authority.

The Laws of Physics disagree.  Only so much room in those easements or on the pole.

It is not that we like it that way, but denying the laws of physics in favor one's ideology is something I'd expect from a looney lefty.

In an urban environment, there's no real reason to have a monopoly on phone and cable services.

You have a good case for wireless, but the wired problem of requiring access to all sorts of public & private space is a bear.  Just power, phone, cable, water, & gas are already a spaghetti mess and prone to cause each other problems.

We talk about reliability & security of wired commo, and that is true.  But, all it takes if for one knucklehead with a backhoe and all your reliability has gone to crap.  Ubiquitous, reliable, and BROAD wireless broadband can't come soon enough for me, and not just so HTG's ideal can be more fully realized.  That idiot on the backhoe is always there, waiting to tear up our commo and head off to lunch.
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roo_ster

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RevDisk

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The Laws of Physics disagree.  Only so much room in those easements or on the pole.

It is not that we like it that way, but denying the laws of physics in favor one's ideology is something I'd expect from a looney lefty.

Notice all of the infrastructure geeks seem to be more or less in agreement, and quite a few of the non-geeks are telling us that we're wrong but not in detail explaining how we are wrong?  I decided to give up trying, but I still love reading the thread.

 [popcorn]

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Perd Hapley

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Notice all of the infrastructure geeks seem to be more or less in agreement, and quite a few of the non-geeks are telling us that we're wrong but not in detail explaining how we are wrong?  I decided to give up trying, but I still love reading the thread.

 [popcorn]


I sorta noticed that too, except that HTG seems kinda geeky on this, too, so...

This has been a very informative thread.  Thanks, geeks!   =)
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MicroBalrog

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Quote
You have a good case for wireless, but the wired problem of requiring access to all sorts of public & private space is a bear.  Just power, phone, cable, water, & gas are already a spaghetti mess and prone to cause each other problems.

And you can use both the cable infrastructure and the phone infrastructure for both phone and TV services. This is how it works here - the cable company evolved to also provide phone and Internet, and the phone guys bought up a competing cable company and became a TV provider. So now we have two competitors anywhere there's cable and phone. That's something that actually happened. It's fact.

In addition, there's a very simple way to provide competition in wired services, and I already mentioned it here. :)

[P.S. Power and gas lines can be used for IP signal transmission.

Further, there's the phenomenon of push-pipes. Lay a push-pipe, lay several different lines inside the pipe, and go.
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Balog

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There is only X amount of space available in the below ground pipes laid under the streets. It's already mostly taken.

I swear, I never thought I'd see HTG and Micro collaborating on a libertarian wet dream. Next thing you know CSD and I will be agreeing in a cops using taser as electric whip thread...
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MicroBalrog

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How is it a wet dream if it is actually happening in many big cities throughout the world?

What is wet-dreamish about having two wired telcos competing in one town? THat is actually happening right where I live. I can disconnect from my telco and go to the other telco. That's an actual physical fact.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

mtnbkr

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Quote
Further, there's the phenomenon of push-pipes. Lay a push-pipe, lay several different lines inside the pipe, and go.

And hit a water main...

You DID read the article I posted, right?

Chris