Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: White Horseradish on July 07, 2016, 01:27:57 PM
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http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2016/07/06/police-officer-involved-shooting-in-falcon-heights/
Guy is killed by cops after telling them he has a permit and is carrying.
Seems to be a case of carrying while black.
Badgelickers blaming the victim are already all over Facebook.
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I'm willing to wait for more context, but this looks very bad for the police officer.
FROM THE CURRENT INFORMATION AVAILABLE, it looks like the police officer was panicky because the driver willingly told him he was carrying a firearm, which we've seen video of that happening previously.
(As a note, why do some police officers become hair-trigger at that? If he TELLS you he's got a firearm, your threat meter ought to decrease, not increase because if he wanted to shoot you, he wouldn't tell you.)
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Badgelickers blaming the victim are already all over Facebook.
Plenty of people rushing to judgment from the other side, so... It looks to me like a bad shoot, but keep in mind that outrage over a black guy being shot has (over the past few years) usually meant that the cops were in the right.
Usually...
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You can hear in the video from the tone of the officer's voice he realizes he just may have screwed the pooch.
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Interesting, there appear to suddenly be three stories of cops killing black men in the matter of a couple of days. Almost makes me want to get out the tinfoil. I see that the President was apparently "made aware" of at least one of them, and the dems brought it up in the middle of the Comey hearing. No word on if anyone of the other races killed by cops has been brought to Obama's attention.
I will say that two of these look bad for the cops. Definitely need more info.
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You can hear in the video from the tone of the officer's voice he realizes he just may have screwed the pooch.
I tried listening, but there might be something incompatible with my computer - I get no audio on the video.
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I tried listening, but there might be something incompatible with my computer - I get no audio on the video.
I heard it while watching the news this morning.
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In cases like these I think that LE triggers may not do enough to prevent negligent discharges. I have no love or hate for law enforcement but I don't think it'd be the worst thing to put a revolver, or some other suitable DAO pistol, back on their belt. Shooting someone out of poor judgement is an entirely different issue than shooting someone by accident and you just know that authorities are only too happy to spin the story their way.
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makattack whined:
(As a note, why do some police officers become hair-trigger at that? If he TELLS you he's got a firearm, your threat meter ought to decrease, not increase because if he wanted to shoot you, he wouldn't tell you.)
Are you trying to inject mere logic into these kinds of things?
For shame.
Terry
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Never mind, wrong thread
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Interesting, there appear to suddenly be three stories of cops killing black men in the matter of a couple of days. Almost makes me want to get out the tinfoil. I see that the President was apparently "made aware" of at least one of them, and the dems brought it up in the middle of the Comey hearing. No word on if anyone of the other races killed by cops has been brought to Obama's attention.
Curious timing, indeed.
Also disturbing that the Dept of Justice for the Little People seems to automatically investigate any police shooting of a black guy (if it makes headlines).
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http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2016/07/06/police-officer-involved-shooting-in-falcon-heights/
Guy is killed by cops after telling them he has a permit and is carrying.
Seems to be a case of carrying while black.
Badgelickers blaming the victim are already all over Facebook.
I've not watched the video, but this is exactly why I don't tell cops when I'm armed. I don't trust them not to shoot me.
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I've not watched the video, but this is exactly why I don't tell cops when I'm armed. I don't trust them not to shoot me.
Depending on the state you're required to notify upon contact.
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I've not watched the video, but this is exactly why I don't tell cops when I'm armed. I don't trust them not to shoot me.
In Texas we are required to inform if we are packing if asked by LEO for our ID.
Perhaps they ought to have issued Officer Badshoot? one of the pretty blue Glocks instead of the boring black colored ones with the trigger Perfection.
(https://www.copsplus.com/products/large/bt-fsg17.jpg)
I would be interested to see/hear any LEO on-body or car video & audio. Gal recording the video seems remarkably calm considering that four rounds were just shot near her in the wild and that her BF is bleeding out. She seems the more credible witness at the time of filming when she tells Officer Badshoot? her BF was following instructions. Again, LEO-side video/audio would be nice.
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As far as the LEO-shoots-black-guy konspiracy, there will always be a bunch ready to roll given crime rates.
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Joe Olson is a guy whose I opinion I would listen to.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/07/07/3796266/philando-castile-shooting-st-anthony-police-falcon-heights-improper-stops/
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Interesting, there appear to suddenly be three stories of cops killing black men in the matter of a couple of days. Almost makes me want to get out the tinfoil. I see that the President was apparently "made aware" of at least one of them, and the dems brought it up in the middle of the Comey hearing. No word on if anyone of the other races killed by cops has been brought to Obama's attention.
I will say that two of these look bad for the cops. Definitely need more info.
I think we can believe it is being raised as a convenient smokescreen while at the same time believing that the shoots were not staged. In any given week there are probably at least one or two examples of cops murdering an innocent person.
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Joe Olson is a guy whose I opinion I would listen to.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/07/07/3796266/philando-castile-shooting-st-anthony-police-falcon-heights-improper-stops/
“I was on the fire department in Falcon Heights when they got the [St. Anthony] police contract, and the chief promised the city council that he would double their ticket revenue,” Olson said, adding that this happened before Ohl’s tenure. “They essentially run a slot machine where the incident happened. They’re always out there looking for anything — write a ticket and collect a buck.”
Policing for profit, yet another reason why I maintain that the majority of police departments are just criminal organizations operating under color of law.
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If it is a bad shoot I hope the cop is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Considering it probably really is a bad shoot I know that is too much to ask.
On a side note:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/21/police-kill-more-whites-than-blacks-but-minority-d/
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On a side note:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/21/police-kill-more-whites-than-blacks-but-minority-d/
Who? Whom?
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If it is a bad shoot I hope the cop is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Considering it probably really is a bad shoot I know that is too much to ask.
I think the Minnesota BCA (Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, people that investigate police shootings) has failed to clear the cop in a shooting only once. And even then no charges were filed.
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Depending on the state you're required to notify upon contact.
I understand that. Minnesota does not require it. Texas does, but there is no penalty for failing to; it's not even an infraction. (I don't have a TX permit, so it doesn't matter, I just think it's interesting)
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They removed the penalty to failure to notify in Texas, but the requirement is still there. The officer will see that you have permit as soon as he runs your information. I just hand over both ID's and explain my carry status then.
Is a police officer justified in shooting just because the guy was reaching for "something"?
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Is a police officer justified in shooting just because the guy was reaching for "something"?
In my opinion? No.
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Can y'all tell from the video if the officer told the guy to show his hands or not to reach for anything?
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In my opinion? No.
That was my thought also. I would have though he would need to see something in his hands first.
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Can y'all tell from the video if the officer told the guy to show his hands or not to reach for anything?
Thing is he may not have heard the officer say that considering he had just been told to produce his ID.
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Can y'all tell from the video if the officer told the guy to show his hands or not to reach for anything?
Sounds like a case of "Don't move! Give me your ID immediately! I said don't move!"
Some reports say there was a four year old in the car. What the hell is the matter with people? Paranoia about being shot needs to be recognised and treated as a mental illness.
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Some reports say there was a four year old in the car. What the hell is the matter with people? Paranoia about being shot needs to be recognised and treated as a mental illness.
Medical retirement if they're that paranoid.
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I've not watched the video, but this is exactly why I don't tell cops when I'm armed. I don't trust them not to shoot me.
That can backfire on you when they run your ID.
A woman I know got grilled because she hadn't informed them of her CHL because she wasn't carrying when she was pulled over. They refused to believe her when she said it was at home and hassled her for a good while over it.
And this is in a state where it is not required and only recommended as a courtesy to the officers.
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That can backfire on you when they run your ID.
A woman I know got grilled because she hadn't informed them of her CHL because she wasn't carrying when she was pulled over. They refused to believe her when she said it was at home and hassled her for a good while over it.
And this is in a state where it is not required and only recommended as a courtesy to the officers.
That doesn't sound like a "courtesy" to me. :mad:
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That doesn't sound like a "courtesy" to me. :mad:
It's not.
However, my Dad, who gets pulled over a lot because of his job, always informs and has never had a problem... Well, not a bad problem. He's had a few instances now of the cop deciding there was all the time in the world to stand by the side of the road and chit chat about guns. Dad had to gently, but firmly, tell one officer that he really had to get going, but he hoped his recommendations for a pistol for the officers wife worked out. ;/
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Plenty of people rushing to judgment from the other side, so... It looks to me like a bad shoot, but keep in mind that outrage over a black guy being shot has (over the past few years) usually meant that the cops were in the right.
Usually...
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. I had the same thought initially. But a number of things caused me to rethink. The guy's age, his continuous state of employment, the fact that he had a clean enough record to get a carry permit, the fact that he was actually carrying and informed the officer. This is starting to smell like a bad shoot to me too.
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If it is a bad shoot I hope the cop is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Considering it probably really is a bad shoot I know that is too much to ask.
On a side note:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/21/police-kill-more-whites-than-blacks-but-minority-d/
On a better side note as far as making liberals twitch
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2016/04/27/this-study-found-race-matters-in-police-shootings-but-the-results-may-surprise-you/
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In my opinion? No.
Garner is less clear about how to assess that or rather graham v Connor as a follow up is
The money shot for you
In the 1989 Graham v. Connor ruling, the Supreme Court expanded its definition to include "objective reasonableness" standard—not subjective as to what the officer's intent might have been—and it must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer at the scene—and its calculus must embody the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions about the amount of force necessary in a particular situation
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It appears that at first the woman seems to just think her boyfriend got shot in the arm if you believe the narration. That might be why she was more calm at first. I thought the video caught the traffic stop, but it only starts after the shots are fired.
I think it is telling how obviously emotional/stressed the officer is when he responded to the woman on the video. Why would he say anything at all? I also wasn't sure why he still held them at gun point then. Maybe backup wasn't there yet.
I agree with a comment earlier. I would like to see/hear the police video. Even if it was just car video with the remote microphone, it would help clear up what happened. All we seem to have at this point is the woman's video testimony and the response of the police officer on the video. We need more.
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I was looking at some of the face book comments on the news site. One thing that jumped out at me: You really shouldn't have to behave as if your life is on the line just because you are being pulled over for a traffic citation. I saw several people commenting that he failed to follow the officer's instructions and he shouldn't have reached for something. If traffic stops have somehow become life or death situations then they are too dangerous and police shouldn't be doing them.
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It appears that at first the woman seems to just think her boyfriend got shot in the arm if you believe the narration. That might be why she was more calm at first. I thought the video caught the traffic stop, but it only starts after the shots are fired.
I think it is telling how obviously emotional/stressed the officer is when he responded to the woman on the video. Why would he say anything at all? I also wasn't sure why he still held them at gun point then. Maybe backup wasn't there yet....
Because if she had a knife or gun that he doesn't know about, it would be reasonable to expect her to try to kill him in self defense (and IMHO justified, see John Bad Elk v. US, 1900)
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Now reading. Not a permit holder
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And police radio transcript says he matched description of armed robbery suspect
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And police radio transcript says he matched description of armed robbery suspect
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I see this a lot, in a lot of these shootings. So *expletive deleted*ing what? Unless he WAS the armed robbery suspect, this gets zero traction with me.
A cop in a free country does not get a pass, or even leniency, for shooting someone not a criminal because they were nervous about a criminal. To some extent the LEO defenders that insist they should helped create the us vs. them that lead to Dallas this week. And it's my opinion that that little bit of tribalism has just barely kicked off.
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Just read a report that the gun wasn't concealed but was in his lap.
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/07/08/confirmed-philando-castile-was-an-armed-robbery-suspect-false-media-narrative-now-driving-cop-killings/
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I don't believe anything from Conservative Treehouse. Need more reliable sources
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I don't believe anything from Conservative Treehouse. Need more reliable sources
Conservative Treehouse is like a more explicitly racist combination of Infowars and World Net Daily. I would actually respect a WND link as more credible.
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I'm beginning to see more rumblings, including a radio transcript, of there being a lot more to the story. The story links the robbery suspect's decription, one of the items taken, and and the woman who posted the film having a similar item in her possession during the 07/07 press conf.
I am reserving speculation pending confirmation by other sources but the narrative is reasonably plausible if the facts as presented are generally correct.
Brad
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Spme of what is in conservative Treehouse is from the police and you can see the gun in the picture
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Okay, if the guy had a gun in his lap, I can see why the officer would have a gun drawn and fire if the guy made the wrong movements. Another reason it is always best to wait a few days before passing judgement.
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Now reading. Not a permit holder
Read some more. Yes, a permit holder.
http://www.startribune.com/philando-castile-had-permit-to-carry-gun/386054481/
Ramsey county did not issue it, Hennepin did.
And police radio transcript says he matched description of armed robbery suspect
Which means absolutely nothing.
A friend of mine got robbed. Gave a description to police. They brought a guy for her to ID. Looked nothing like the guy.
This is a bullshit excuse.
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Spme of what is in conservative Treehouse is from the police and you can see the gun in the picture
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You have NSA level image intensification software if you are sure that's a gun in the conservative treehouse article. It's definitely a something though.
And the "Similar item to what was stolen" that the lady has is a pack of Newport 100's. Not exactly rare in the hood.
I'm not calling for the cops head yet, I just said it looked bad. But the efforts to spin the narrative in the LEO's favor seem more frantic than credible.
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Spme of what is in conservative Treehouse is from the police and you can see the gun in the picture
Oh, please. You can see some blurry thing that could be literally anything, from a cell phone to a belt.
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I'm not certain why the attempts to stretch for justification in this case- police screw up and it would be helpful to their supporters to admit that it happens.
The ONLY amazing thing about this one would be if the BLM people actually found a case where an innocent was shot, since they almost uniformly choose criminals who gave cause for shooting.
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It looks real bad to me, but I've been wrong about that before. I think the NRA was right to not comment on this case yet. Wait for the investigation (or lack thereof.)
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The ONLY amazing thing about this one would be if the BLM people actually found a case where an innocent was shot, since they almost uniformly choose criminals who gave cause for shooting.
Castile was pretty much the poster-perfect good guy. Straight-A student, worked a steady job, had a permit, no record beyond bullshit traffic violations.
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Castile was pretty much the poster-perfect good guy. Straight-A student, worked a steady job, had a permit, no record beyond bullshit traffic violations.
The deceased being innocent and upstanding is not what is surprising.
BLM choosing to make issue with his being shot is.
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Oh, please. You can see some blurry thing that could be literally anything, from a cell phone to a belt.
Is it your contention he did not have a gun?
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Castile was pretty much the poster-perfect good guy. Straight-A student, worked a steady job, had a permit, no record beyond bullshit traffic violations.
http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=b95_1468030677
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http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=b95_1468030677
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He smokes weed. I had no idea but this is proof positive he deserved it.
It's impossible to violate the rights of someone with reefer madness!
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Ymmv but in some cultures smoking weed in a car with your 4 year old in the car seat is less than optimal
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Ymmv but in some cultures smoking weed in a car with your 4 year old in the car seat is less than optimal
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What's that have to do with him being a threat to police?
There seems to be an unspoken assumption in these threads that any and all character flaws or criminal history a dead guy has is relevant to whether he should have been shot. That's more than disturbing when a gun owner is the one saying that sort of "well maybe he deserved it!" crap.
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The ONLY amazing thing about this one would be if the BLM people actually found a case where an innocent was shot, since they almost uniformly choose criminals who gave cause for shooting.
Yeah, that's the surprising part. Not to discount Tamir Rice, and probably a few other cases. But most of the people they go to war over (sometimes literally) range from the outright felonious, to the merely shady.
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Is it your contention he did not have a gun?
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My contention is that saying that this blurry picture proves that he had it in his lap is at best wishful thinking.
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He smokes weed. I had no idea but this is proof positive he deserved it.
It's impossible to violate the rights of someone with reefer madness!
CSAD might agree with that sentiment.Ymmv but in some cultures smoking weed in a car with your 4 year old in the car seat is less than optimal
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Maybe he was offering the cop a toke and the cop popped him for that.
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My contention is that saying that this blurry picture proves that he had it in his lap is at best wishful thinking.
So that's a no?we both believe he had a gun?
Do we both believe it behooves one to be careful when armed during a traffic stop?&*
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So that's a no?we both believe he had a gun?
Do we both believe it behooves one to be careful when armed during a traffic stop?&*
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Because a cop would never get jumpy with an armed citizen nor give conflicting orders in rapid succession.
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Hence it behooves one to be very careful. One never knows when one matches the description of someone who is wanted.
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Hence it behooves one to be very careful. One never knows when one matches the description of someone who is wanted.
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http://www.snopes.com/philando-castile-was-not-wanted-for-armed-robbery/ (http://www.snopes.com/philando-castile-was-not-wanted-for-armed-robbery/)
Snopes does a good analysis of the web rumours about that one. Short version is: Castile was not a suspect in any robbery.
Sorry CSD, but your risk of being shot by police shouldn't increase solely because someone else robbed a store. A free society isn't one where you assume every interaction with police is one where you very likely could be shot. Likewise, as has been commented on this thread, if stopping cars is so dangerous, there needs to be a new approach to the practice by LEOs.
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http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2016/07/06/police-officer-involved-shooting-in-falcon-heights/
Guy is killed by cops after telling them he has a permit and is carrying.
Seems to be a case of carrying while black.
Badgelickers blaming the victim are already all over Facebook.
and cop haters, with zero information, are already all over FB, blaming the cops. The fellow did not have a CCW. He was pulled because he fit the exact description of a recent armed robber. Of course, when you are agenda driven, facts mean nothing.
and snopes has no credibility.
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and cop haters, with zero information, are already all over FB, blaming the cops. The fellow did not have a CCW. He was pulled because he fit the exact description of a recent armed robber. Of course, when you are agenda driven, facts mean nothing.
and snopes has no credibility.
How did you confirm he had no CCW?
Did you read the snopes piece? The photos speak for themselves
Looks to me like a lot of the demonisation of this poor guy is agenda driven as much as anything else.
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At the risk of veering from the "bad cop / good cop" direction... =D
I do find it interesting that whether any of us think the cop was in the right or in the wrong, this did make me really notice one common theme on the left. If a cop shoots someone (especially of a popular ethnicity), the left blames the cop. If anyone else shoots someone, the left blames the gun. Even though in this case the driver had a gun (whether legal or illegal), I'm not seeing much "The gun! The gun!" from the left.
They seem to be able to separate the inanimate object from the act when it suits them.
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I do find it interesting that whether any of us think the cop was in the right or in the wrong, this did make me really notice one common theme on the left. If a cop shoots someone (especially of a popular ethnicity), the left blames the cop. If anyone else shoots someone, the left blames the gun. Even though in this case the driver had a gun (whether legal or illegal), I'm not seeing much "The gun! The gun!" from the left.
They seem to be able to separate the inanimate object from the act when it suits them.
That's a very incisive observation.
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Hence it behooves one to be very careful. One never knows when one matches the description of someone who is wanted.
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Like those old hispanic ladies and white males that got their car shot up because they lookied so much like Chris Dorner.
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They're also good at blaming "hateful right-wing rhetoric" for crimes committed by Democrats, and ignoring the "pig-killing" rhetoric of BLM.
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They're also good at blaming "hateful right-wing rhetoric" for crimes committed by Democrats, and ignoring the "pig-killing" rhetoric of BLM.
You realize that works both ways right? We don't accept that Claire Wolfe et al drove Tim McVeigh to bomb OKC, but are convinced Obama is behind Dallas.
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You realize that works both ways right? We don't accept that Claire Wolfe et al drove Tim McVeigh to bomb OKC, but are convinced Obama is behind Dallas.
In fairness, Wolfe has specifically stated "Don't shoot the bastards (yet)."
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So that's a no?we both believe he had a gun?
Do we both believe it behooves one to be careful when armed during a traffic stop?&*
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You should be careful. At the same time, making a small mistake in choreography of your movements should not be a death sentence.
Every single state, including the very anti-gun ones, has some form of legal carry now. Mere possession of a gun is not a valid reason for a police officer to kill someone.
Hence it behooves one to be very careful. One never knows when one matches the description of someone who is wanted.
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If you can tell me how I can know when I match the description of someone wanted, I'd love to hear it.
The fellow did not have a CCW. He was pulled because he fit the exact description of a recent armed robber. Of course, when you are agenda driven, facts mean nothing.
He did have a permit. Minnesota has 87 counties, you can apply for a permit at any county sheriff. One sheriff saying he didn't apply there means absolutely nothing. A poster on a police forum said he had a permit issued in Hennepin county.
Unless you have access to MN police databases you have absolutely no way to confirm he had no permit.
The robbery took place the day before. "exact description" was vague enough to cover 3/4 of black male population of the state.
Of course, when you are agenda driven, facts mean nothing.
I'm not seeing much "The gun! The gun!" from the left.
I have seen people literally saying "gun laws are killing black people"
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You realize that works both ways right? We don't accept that Claire Wolfe et al drove Tim McVeigh to bomb OKC, but are convinced Obama is behind Dallas.
It's actually quite one-sided. BLM parades through the streets saying things like "What do we want? Dead cops!" We don't hear things like that, directed toward anyone, at Tea Parties, or from Rush Limbaugh, or from Fox News. Besides, Claire Wolfe? She's not exactly as high-profile as Black Lives Matter, or the afore-mentioned right-wingers.
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It's actually quite one-sided. BLM parades through the streets saying things like "What do we want? Dead cops!" We don't hear things like that, directed toward anyone, at Tea Parties, or from Rush Limbaugh, or from Fox News. Besides, Claire Wolfe? She's not exactly as high-profile as Black Lives Matter, or the afore-mentioned right-wingers.
Lol.
Rhetoric never drives anyone to violence, except left wing rhetoric!
I've seen plenty violent rhetoric aimed at the .hov, politicians, and black people "thugs" around the right wing world. You can find lots if it here on this forum. But all the gun guys salivating over the prospect of murdering politicians isn't to blame for Gabby Giffords, of course.
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Through last year at least, it's been safer to be a cop than it has been for decades.
Attacks on Police have spiked dramatically this year though so I'm not sure that trend will hold.
Why attacks on cops have spiked this year is a mystery for sure. Probably a lot of reasons that experts will have to study for years to come ;/
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In fairness, Wolfe has specifically stated "Don't shoot the bastards (yet)."
In even more fairness, Wolfe was not the President of the United States.
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Why attacks on cops have spiked this year is a mystery for sure. Probably a lot of reasons that experts will have to study for years to come ;/
I don't think there's any mystery at all. I don't think we need to look any farther than the Race-Baiter-in-Chief for the reason.
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I don't think there's any mystery at all. I don't think we need to look any farther than the Race-Baiter-in-Chief for the reason.
I don't think it's that simple, but he's a major contributing factor.
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Lol.
Rhetoric never drives anyone to violence, except left wing rhetoric!
I've seen plenty violent rhetoric aimed at the .hov, politicians, and black people "thugs" around the right wing world. You can find lots if it here on this forum. But all the gun guys salivating over the prospect of murdering politicians isn't to blame for Gabby Giffords, of course.
You seem to be comparing comments on the internet, which is plenty violent on both sides. I was talking about comments in news media, from talk show hosts, and from activist groups. There's where I'm seeing a big difference. But don't let that interrupt your need to be gleeful about how you're smarter and more objective than everyone else. We all love that feeling, don't we?
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http://www.snopes.com/philando-castile-was-not-wanted-for-armed-robbery/ (http://www.snopes.com/philando-castile-was-not-wanted-for-armed-robbery/)
Snopes does a good analysis of the web rumours about that one. Short version is: Castile was not a suspect in any robbery.
Sorry CSD, but your risk of being shot by police shouldn't increase solely because someone else robbed a store. A free society isn't one where you assume every interaction with police is one where you very likely could be shot. Likewise, as has been commented on this thread, if stopping cars is so dangerous, there needs to be a new approach to the practice by LEOs.
Matching description does not equate with being the suspect. But we both already knew that
What opinions do you hold re the police radio transcripts about pulling him over?
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Matching description does not equate with being the suspect. But we both already knew that
What opinions do you hold re the police radio transcripts about pulling him over?
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That he wasn't doing anything except driving along, and pulled over when indicated.
The "I have cause" part seemed a lot like "we just pull people over to check for crimes in this jurisdiction".
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You seem to be comparing comments on the internet, which is plenty violent on both sides. I was talking about comments in news media, from talk show hosts, and from activist groups. There's where I'm seeing a big difference. But don't let that interrupt your need to be gleeful about how you're smarter and more objective than everyone else. We all love that feeling, don't we?
That is such a pathetic technique to try to disqualify any counter arguments. "Oh, you disagree with me? Well la dee da looks who's so fancy and knows everything!" The height of hypocrisy, which is exactly what I'd expect from you.
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The "I have cause" part seemed a lot like "we just pull people over to check for crimes in this jurisdiction".
In my corner of the universe, that's called DWB ("Driving While Black").
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That is such a pathetic technique to try to disqualify any counter arguments. "Oh, you disagree with me? Well la dee da looks who's so fancy and knows everything!" The height of hypocrisy, which is exactly what I'd expect from you.
So you disagree with anything I say, just because you don't like me. Very well. You weren't going to win this argument, anyway, as the Tea Party never marched through the streets calling for murder.
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My position on BLM's is let them do what they will do.
They will either moderate or alienate most of America.
Nobody really cares what a 50+ yr old Christian white guy thinks on the matter anyway.
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For me the link talking about a possible gun in his lap and his description fitting a robbery suspect don't prove anything. It just provides a potentially plausible reason for the shooting. Considering the youtube video is pretty much one-sided, alternative viewpoints are not a bad thing. Also, I figure the police are not likely to release much information about the police officer's side of things for a while so I don't expect a great deal more information.
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In my corner of the universe, that's called DWB ("Driving While Black").
Hawkmoon speaks the truth.
It's happened to me and Philando Castile plenty of times.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/stopped-52-times-police-racial-profiling-40453378 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/stopped-52-times-police-racial-profiling-40453378)
Also, if one doesn't "match the description", there's always the claim that your vehicle does.
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In my corner of the universe, that's called DWB ("Driving While Black").
Typically that charge is made when someone is driving in a neighborhood they don't belong . A white boy driving in the wrong part of town will you pulled over also
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For me the link talking about a possible gun in his lap and his description fitting a robbery suspect don't prove anything. It just provides a potentially plausible reason for the shooting. Considering the youtube video is pretty much one-sided, alternative viewpoints are not a bad thing. Also, I figure the police are not likely to release much information about the police officer's side of things for a while so I don't expect a great deal more information.
Unfortunately I don't believe they wear body cams
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Hawkmoon speaks the truth.
It's happened to me and Philando Castile plenty of times.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/stopped-52-times-police-racial-profiling-40453378 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/stopped-52-times-police-racial-profiling-40453378)
Also, if one doesn't "match the description", there's always the claim that your vehicle does.
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/LAW/03/27/nj.speeding.study/index.html
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You seem to be comparing comments on the internet, which is plenty violent on both sides. I was talking about comments in news media, from talk show hosts, and from activist groups. There's where I'm seeing a big difference. But don't let that interrupt your need to be gleeful about how you're smarter and more objective than everyone else. We all love that feeling, don't we?
http://www.coloradoindependent.com/31938/coulter-says-kansas-abortion-doctor-was-terminated-in-the-203rd-trimester
Ann Coulter doesn’t “really like to think of it as a murder,” discussing the killing of Kansas abortion provider George Tiller with Bill O’Reilly on Fox News’ The O’Reilly Factor Monday. “I like to think of it as terminating someone in the 203rd trimester,” the conservative personality says
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Typically that charge is made when someone is driving in a neighborhood they don't belong . A white boy driving in the wrong part of town will you pulled over also
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Yep. That kind of crap only serves to create more opportunities for tragedies to happen, and subjects free citizens to the experience of "democracy means uniforms telling you what's what" as a lesson in civics.
Way to celebrate the worst aspects of authority ;/
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http://www.coloradoindependent.com/31938/coulter-says-kansas-abortion-doctor-was-terminated-in-the-203rd-trimester
Was that supposed to be an example of a right-wing media figure calling for someone's murder? You realize she was lampooning the left's pro-child-killing arguments, yes? And she didn't say anyone should be terminated - you realize that, right?
Even if you do find an example of such from the right, I wasn't saying it never happens. We all know the left (both the politicians and the press) are prone to blame the right-wing figures for acts of violence they're not connected with, committed by people we have no reason to believe took their orders from them. For example, blaming the Tea Party for the actions of a pilot who flew his plane into an IRS building - his suicide note quoted a Communist creed, and mocked capitalism. Sarah Palin was blamed for the shooting of Gabby Giffords and a federal judge, though no connection was ever discovered. Bill Clinton blamed right-wing talk radio for the OKC bombing, despite any clear evidence that the bombers were motivated by same.
On the other side, we have a rather clear-cut case of BLM marchers publicly calling for the murder of police officers, and several police officers (in Dallas and NYC) murdered.
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In fewer words:
Fistful agrees that Balog was right about there being examples of this from the conservative side.
He just won't accept any single example or string of examples as proof of the point - "you may be able to give examples of the behaviour I just said never occurred, but rest assured, I'll allege they had no connection to anything violent while simultaneously blaming BLM for every black rampage."
About Tiller, LOTS of right wingers said it was defense of the innocent to shoot that guy in church. The rhetoric has been called out for years as baiting murder, and surprise, lots of abortion clinic workers get murdered because of it.
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Just to keep things in perspective.
Any two weeks in Chicago sees nearly as many if not more murders as all the murders committed against abortionists and related individuals since 1975, across the whole country.
Generally I don't engage in the "kill em all", "sea of glass" type rhetoric on any issue. I do think those among the BLM folks engaging in violent rhetoric are getting a pass right now.
But that is working against them with the majority of folks, they will lose support if they don't police themselves and moderate.
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HERE is the perspective for why the left's (far more prevalent) violent rhetoric is different:
http://www.startribune.com/about-100-arrested-in-st-paul-protests/386197981/
A dramatic protest late Saturday and early Sunday on Interstate 94 in St. Paul turned violent, with 21 police officers injured and more than 100 people arrested.
At an 8 a.m. news conference, Axtell said 21 officers from all law enforcement agencies on the scene were injured in the mayhem. One of them suffered a broken vertebra after a concrete block was dropped on his head; he was still hospitalized as of Sunday afternoon, police said.
The murderous violence in Dallas is merely a step up from the GENERALIZED violence of leftist protests.
Find me a similar circumstance from a Tea Party or Pro-Life protest and I'll take your opinion seriously.
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In fewer words:
Fistful agrees that Balog was right about there being examples of this from the conservative side.
He just won't accept any single example or string of examples as proof of the point - "you may be able to give examples of the behaviour I just said never occurred, but rest assured, I'll allege they had no connection to anything violent while simultaneously blaming BLM for every black rampage."
About Tiller, LOTS of right wingers said it was defense of the innocent to shoot that guy in church. The rhetoric has been called out for years as baiting murder, and surprise, lots of abortion clinic workers get murdered because of it.
How many abortion clinic workers have been murdered? All together not just recently? I hear that stuff thrown out there all the time, but no one ever mentions the actual numbers.
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In fewer words:
Fistful agrees that Balog was right about there being examples of this from the conservative side.
If there were, why don't you mention at least one example?
He just won't accept any single example or string of examples as proof of the point - "you may be able to give examples of the behaviour I just said never occurred, but rest assured, I'll allege they had no connection to anything violent while simultaneously blaming BLM for every black rampage."
So do you think a racist movement that calls for the murder of police officers is at all to blame, when people murder police officers, and call it revenge for Eric Garner and Michael Brown? (New York City, 2014) Or when someone allied with the New Black Panthers goes on a racist killing spree against police, at a BLM event in Dallas?
About Tiller, LOTS of right wingers said it was defense of the innocent to shoot that guy in church. The rhetoric has been called out for years as baiting murder, and surprise, lots of abortion clinic workers get murdered because of it.
Then why did you cite someone NOT saying that?
Also, how many are you calling a lot? Not that one death isn't of huge significance by itself, but you said "a lot," so the numbers must be meaningful to you. How many?
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It's funny. I don't recall saying that no one from the right side of the aisle has ever called for the murder of anyone.
I do recall commenting on the fact that left-wing press and politicians blame right-wing "rhetoric" for unrelated violence, while downplaying the actual connections between left-wing rhetoric and the violence they commit. I don't see that being refuted any time soon.
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Big difference is that when someone nominally from the "right" fringe calls for and/or commits a heinous act of violence they have turned out to mostly be whack jobs that are batshit crazy to begin with.
Those on the left that are committing and/or calling for heinous acts are generally mainstream democrats.
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Yep. That kind of crap only serves to create more opportunities for tragedies to happen, and subjects free citizens to the experience of "democracy means uniforms telling you what's what" as a lesson in civics.
Way to celebrate the worst aspects of authority ;/
I think of it as pragmatism.
When you see a white boy with Maryland tags leaving the stop and cop at Malcom x park in dc you know he's got weed so you bust him.
Likewise the black kid catching the last train in from Bethesda with a car radio in his hand and a screw driver in his back pocket.
Often what looks like a duck is ,in fact, a duck.
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Duck Lives Matter
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I think of it as pragmatism.
When you see a white boy with Maryland tags leaving the stop and cop at Malcom x park in dc you know he's got weed so you bust him.
Likewise the black kid catching the last train in from Bethesda with a car radio in his hand and a screw driver in his back pocket.
Often what looks like a duck is ,in fact, a duck.
Or not.
A long time ago I went to school in Philadelphia for a couple of years. I lived in an apartment off campus in West Philadelphia, which -- once you get off campus -- is (or was then) predominately black. I was dating a woman who lived in Upper Darby, which is the next municipality west of West Philadelphia. I didn't have a car then, so I rode the bus.
One evening I left her apartment too late, and missed the bus. Not being too bright, it took me some time to figure out that the bus wasn't coming. Back then, "Upper Dumpy" was reputed to be a mafioso bedroom community. The cops knew who they were there to protect. I stood at a bus stop for well over an hour, and had multiple police cars cruise past me. Nobody even noticed. But while I was standing there I saw several instances of cops stopping youths "of color" across the street to see who they were and why they were there.
Once I figured out that I had missed the last bus, I started walking. Again, no issues in Upper Dumpy. I don't think I was more than three or four blocks into West Philadelphia when a Philadelphia PD cruiser stopped me, ran my ID, and asked me what I was doing there.
So -- DWB (Driving While Black), WWW (Walking While White) -- it happens.
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It's about being out of place.
Gets,a Lotta folks snagged
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Profiling can be a useful tool. There are always exceptions. The exceptions don't negate the rule. It can be misused though as law and order isn't always the goal.
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Or not.
A long time ago I went to school in Philadelphia for a couple of years. I lived in an apartment off campus in West Philadelphia, which -- once you get off campus -- is (or was then) predominately black. I was dating a woman who lived in Upper Darby, which is the next municipality west of West Philadelphia. I didn't have a car then, so I rode the bus.
One evening I left her apartment too late, and missed the bus. Not being too bright, it took me some time to figure out that the bus wasn't coming. Back then, "Upper Dumpy" was reputed to be a mafioso bedroom community. The cops knew who they were there to protect. I stood at a bus stop for well over an hour, and had multiple police cars cruise past me. Nobody even noticed. But while I was standing there I saw several instances of cops stopping youths "of color" across the street to see who they were and why they were there.
Once I figured out that I had missed the last bus, I started walking. Again, no issues in Upper Dumpy. I don't think I was more than three or four blocks into West Philadelphia when a Philadelphia PD cruiser stopped me, ran my ID, and asked me what I was doing there.
So -- DWB (Driving While Black), WWW (Walking While White) -- it happens.
Driving while white(DWW) happens in those places too. I live about an hour from Philly. While I rarely go there anymore, when younger we would go down for concerts, nightlife, what have you. Been pulled over multiple times for being white while in the wrong neighborhood. Usually involved making a wrong turn and getting momentarily lost in places that cops weren't used to seeing white people unless they were buying drugs. Also got in an accident once; the person who hit me took off. Had an officer stop to tell me to walk one block and get on train or subway and get out of the area or he couldn't guarantee my safety.
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Also got in an accident once; the person who hit me took off. Had an officer stop to tell me to walk one block and get on train or subway and get out of the area or he couldn't guarantee my safety.
North Philly?
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If there were, why don't you mention at least one example?
So do you think a racist movement that calls for the murder of police officers is at all to blame, when people murder police officers, and call it revenge for Eric Garner and Michael Brown? (New York City, 2014) Or when someone allied with the New Black Panthers goes on a racist killing spree against police, at a BLM event in Dallas?
Then why did you cite someone NOT saying that?
Also, how many are you calling a lot? Not that one death isn't of huge significance by itself, but you said "a lot," so the numbers must be meaningful to you. How many?
this is exactly what I was saying - you're defining everything on the right as "fringe" and then associating the black fringe with BLM. It isn't possible to cite an example because your definition of what is an example makes it impossible. You seem to have adopted the rule that only examples which confirm your bias are valid, and others have millions of fine distinctions that make them irrelevant.
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I think of it as pragmatism.
When you see a white boy with Maryland tags leaving the stop and cop at Malcom x park in dc you know he's got weed so you bust him.
Likewise the black kid catching the last train in from Bethesda with a car radio in his hand and a screw driver in his back pocket.
Often what looks like a duck is ,in fact, a duck.
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Here's the problem - you cite examples of ducks where there is an individualised reason to be suspicious of them.
Pulling someone over for being black, sans for example a radio and screwdriver in the mans hands, isn't legal or decent. Being black in a used car isn't cause to believe you've committed a crime.
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About Tiller, LOTS of right wingers said it was defense of the innocent to shoot that guy in church. The rhetoric has been called out for years as baiting murder, and surprise, lots of abortion clinic workers get murdered because of it.
Again, every death is significant (since all lives matter =)), but since you said "a lot" of people have been killed, let's look at the numbers. Three people have been killed since Tiller, though I don't think any of them were actually clinic employees.
According to the National Abortion Federation, there have been eleven people killed by anti-abortion violence in the U.S., the first one in 1993.
http://prochoice.org/education-and-advocacy/violence/violence-statistics-and-history/
2014: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/21/2-nypd-cops-shot-in-car-critically-injured.html
2015: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/police-kill-north-county-man-wanted-in-fatal-shooting-of/article_f4629c92-1769-557f-841d-2f8446c162cd.html
2016: Five police officers murdered in Dallas
So in forty-some years (since Roe v Wade), anti-abortion vigilantes have killed 11 people. BLM has killed 8 in under two years.
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Again, every death is significant (since all lives matter =)), but since you said "a lot" of people have been killed, let's look at the numbers. Three people have been killed since Tiller, though I don't think any of them were actually clinic employees.
According to the National Abortion Federation, there have been eleven people killed by anti-abortion violence in the U.S., the first one in 1993.
http://prochoice.org/education-and-advocacy/violence/violence-statistics-and-history/
2014: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/21/2-nypd-cops-shot-in-car-critically-injured.html
2015: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/police-kill-north-county-man-wanted-in-fatal-shooting-of/article_f4629c92-1769-557f-841d-2f8446c162cd.html
2016: Five police officers murdered in Dallas
So in forty-some years (since Roe v Wade), anti-abortion vigilantes have killed 11 people. BLM has killed 8 in under two years.
Why did you bother reporting the roughly 35 percent larger killing toll by anti-abortion activists? I thought that was all just the irrelevant fringe!
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Why did you bother reporting the roughly 35 percent larger killing toll by anti-abortion activists? I thought that was all just the irrelevant fringe!
I suspect the number is higher than he expected, and he reported it anyway. Are you deliberately ignoring the 40 year time span? BLM has only been around, what, 2 years? What will their body count be 10 years from now, much less 40? (not enough data yet to extrapolate with any confidence)
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this is exactly what I was saying - you're defining everything on the right as "fringe" and then associating the black fringe with BLM. It isn't possible to cite an example because your definition of what is an example makes it impossible. You seem to have adopted the rule that only examples which confirm your bias are valid, and others have millions of fine distinctions that make them irrelevant.
You're making things up now, because I haven't said anything like that. I never drew any line between the fringe and the mainstream. I did acknowledge that the internet is rife with violent talk from all sides. But I was referring to people like Sarah Palin, and Rush Limbaugh, and the Tea Party movement, all of which have been falsely accused of inciting violence at various times. Again, to clarify, I wasn't talking about them because they're not "fringe," but because they, specifically, have been unfairly accused.
We have video of BLM chanting for "dead cops."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4ARsxrZh8
Is there such a video or audio from Fox News programs, from Rush Limbaugh, from a Tea Party rally, or any other such? And who has been murdered because of it?
And again, your Ann Coulter quote is not an example of this. You're smart enough to understand why.
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I suspect the number is higher than he expected, and he reported it anyway. Are you deliberately ignoring the 40 year time span? BLM has only been around, what, 2 years? What will their body count be 10 years from now, much less 40? (not enough data yet to extrapolate with any confidence)
BLM isn't the cause of the bodies. Radical black nationalism in response to police brutality and murders has been around longer than abortion and in truth, if we are counting back to Roe v Wade we should be counting back to the Black Panther heyday for comparable extremist kill totals.
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BLM isn't the cause of the bodies. Radical black nationalism in response to police brutality and murders has been around longer than abortion and in truth, if we are counting back to Roe v Wade we should be counting back to the Black Panther heyday for comparable extremist kill totals.
I accept. Add to the count, if you like.
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You're making things up now, because I haven't said anything like that. I never drew any line between the fringe and the mainstream. I did acknowledge that the internet is rife with violent talk from all sides. But I was referring to people like Sarah Palin, and Rush Limbaugh, and the Tea Party movement, all of which have been falsely accused of inciting violence at various times. Again, to clarify, I wasn't talking about them because they're not "fringe," but because they, specifically, have been unfairly accused.
We have video of BLM chanting for "dead cops."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4ARsxrZh8
Is there such a video or audio from Fox News programs, from Rush Limbaugh, from a Tea Party rally, or any other such? And who has been murdered because of it?
And again, your Ann Coulter quote is not an example of this. You're smart enough to understand why.
Million marchers video, as in Louis Farrakhans million?
Palin:
http://gawker.com/5728545/shot-congresswoman-was-in-sarah-palins-crosshairs
Rush:
http://mediamatters.org/video/2009/07/06/olbermann-gives-limbaugh-worst-person-runner-up/151797
That's more explicit than what any official of the BLM movement has said, but hey, who's counting?
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Oh, were those Million Man marcher guys too much on the fringe? Are they not BLM-ey enough for you?
You're hilarious. Thanks for propping up my point. On the Palin thing, your own link (after the moral panic about some obviously metaphoric language) admits that there's no link between the shooter and Palin.
There's no indication that the gunman who shot down Rep. Giffords was motivated by politics.
The Limbaugh thing is even weaker, for your point. How is anyone incited to violence by Rush talking about how the Hondurans should invade us? As Honduras didn't invade, it apparently incited no one.
Sad. You're so off your game today.
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Here's the problem - you cite examples of ducks where there is an individualised reason to be suspicious of them.
Pulling someone over for being black, sans for example a radio and screwdriver in the mans hands, isn't legal or decent. Being black in a used car isn't cause to believe you've committed a crime.
You not aware of the radio transcripts? Or just feigning unawareness?
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You not aware of the radio transcripts? Or just feigning unawareness?
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That's covered in this very thread. What specific cause did you see?
Officer: "he's got a wide nose. Bet it's our robbery suspect."
Reviewing Judge: "sounds like probable cause to me....not! #notalllooksame.com"
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You see the pics of the robber?
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You see the pics of the robber?
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Yep, on that cracked out website. Looked about as similar to the victim as the "gun" photos did to each other.
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Maybe to someone of the "they all look alike class."
Is that you? Tsk tsk
"
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Maybe to someone of the "they all look alike class."
Is that you? Tsk tsk
"
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Yeah, no. That was the point - shouting "I have cause" and "I think that's the perps nose" isn't terribly convincing, and the treehouse photos are clownish attempts to make a case of it.
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Interesting tactic
They aren't the tree houses photos where are the photos that came off the surveillance cameras but by attributing to that source you tried to attack this information
Looking at those pictures and looking the dead guy
I'd say they got a shot and claiming that they thought it was him
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Interesting tactic
They aren't the tree houses photos where are the photos that came off the surveillance cameras but by attributing to that source you tried to attack this information
Looking at those pictures and looking the dead guy
I'd say they got a shot and claiming that they thought it was him
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It's at the snopes article linked in this thread. As is the debunking.
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Did I miss read the Snopes article did say that he wasn't a suspect but didn't say he didn't look like the suspect
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Did I miss read the Snopes article did say that he wasn't a suspect but didn't say he didn't look like the suspect
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So my theory is likely correct. The cop was jumpy from the start, because he was operating under the assumption that they were armed robbery suspects.
Which makes this more heinous.
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USA Today has article quoting cops lawyer.
Apparently they are claiming the gun was not holstered and was visible.
That doesn't mean I believe the cop acted correctly but it does add a wrinkle in the initial narrative we were fed.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/07/09/lawyer-minnesota-cop-reacted-gun-not-race/86894752/
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USA Today has article quoting cops lawyer.
Apparently they are claiming the gun was not holstered and was visible.
That doesn't mean I believe the cop acted correctly but it does add a wrinkle in the initial narrative we were fed.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/07/09/lawyer-minnesota-cop-reacted-gun-not-race/86894752/
I wouldn't expect a lawyer to claim his client is guilty.
If the gun was anywhere but in the man's hand, the cop should burn.
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I wouldn't expect a lawyer to claim his client is guilty.
If the gun was anywhere but in the man's hand, the cop should burn.
What I noticed was that the lawyer didn't claim he was reaching for the gun.
The only understandable reason for the cop to open fire is if he was reaching for or had the gun in his hand.
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What I noticed was that the lawyer didn't claim he was reaching for the gun.
The only understandable reason for the cop to open fire is if he was reaching for or had the gun in his hand.
The girlfriend said he was reaching for his ID at the request of the officer. If he had a gun in his lap and reached toward his ID it could easily escalate.
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You're making things up now, because I haven't said anything like that. I never drew any line between the fringe and the mainstream. I did acknowledge that the internet is rife with violent talk from all sides. But I was referring to people like Sarah Palin, and Rush Limbaugh, and the Tea Party movement, all of which have been falsely accused of inciting violence at various times. Again, to clarify, I wasn't talking about them because they're not "fringe," but because they, specifically, have been unfairly accused.
We have video of BLM chanting for "dead cops."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4ARsxrZh8
Is there such a video or audio from Fox News programs, from Rush Limbaugh, from a Tea Party rally, or any other such? And who has been murdered because of it?
And again, your Ann Coulter quote is not an example of this. You're smart enough to understand why.
Plenty of militia types who call for the murder of feds and politicians. Plenty of lawn order right wingers who call for killing drug dealers. Plenty of folks on gun forums who call for genocide against Muslims. But since they only do it online it doesn't count, of course.
Also, you're arguing out of both sides of your mouth here. Does rhetoric incite violence, or not? Can we hold groups culpable for the actions of people we can however tenuously tie to their rhetoric or not? You seem to be saying it's wrong when the left does it and ok when we do it. I'm saying it's always stupid and wrong.
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You seem to be comparing comments on the internet, which is plenty violent on both sides. I was talking about comments in news media, from talk show hosts, and from activist groups. There's where I'm seeing a big difference. But don't let that interrupt your need to be gleeful about how you're smarter and more objective than everyone else. We all love that feeling, don't we?
Also, since you didn't like my first response, I'll go ahead and point out why this is wrong again.
Please provide quotes from the news media and talk show hosts calling for the death of cops. I'll wait. "Activist groups" would fall under "both sides do it" of the internet example, unless of course you don't count militias and right wing entities as "activist groups." Which I'm betting you don't.
You want to hold Joe Walsh responsible for cops shooting unarmed black guys, right? He's a former politician and talk show host so surely his violent rhetoric is responsible for every trigger happy moron with a badge right?
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/08/politics/joe-walsh-obama-war-tweet/
This is totally Joe Walsh's fault. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article90905442.html
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You seem to be saying it's wrong when the left does it and ok when we do it. I'm saying it's always stupid and wrong.
OK, here's everything I've said about this. Just point out the parts where I said it was OK for the right to incite violence.
They're [I was referring to the left, as a reply to Ben's post] also good at blaming "hateful right-wing rhetoric" for crimes committed by Democrats, and ignoring the "pig-killing" rhetoric of BLM.
It's actually quite one-sided. BLM parades through the streets saying things like "What do we want? Dead cops!" We don't hear things like that, directed toward anyone, at Tea Parties, or from Rush Limbaugh, or from Fox News. Besides, Claire Wolfe? She's not exactly as high-profile as Black Lives Matter, or the afore-mentioned right-wingers.
BTW, what did Claire Wolfe say that was inciting? I'm not finding anything out there. I know almost nothing about her, so I could use any help you could offer.
You seem to be comparing comments on the internet, which is plenty violent on both sides. I was talking about comments in news media, from talk show hosts, and from activist groups. There's where I'm seeing a big difference. But don't let that interrupt your need to be gleeful about how you're smarter and more objective than everyone else. We all love that feeling, don't we?
So you disagree with anything I say, just because you don't like me. Very well. You weren't going to win this argument, anyway, as the Tea Party never marched through the streets calling for murder.
Was that supposed to be an example of a right-wing media figure calling for someone's murder? You realize she was lampooning the left's pro-child-killing arguments, yes? And she didn't say anyone should be terminated - you realize that, right?
Even if you do find an example of such from the right, I wasn't saying it never happens. We all know the left (both the politicians and the press) are prone to blame the right-wing figures for acts of violence they're not connected with, committed by people we have no reason to believe took their orders from them. For example, blaming the Tea Party for the actions of a pilot who flew his plane into an IRS building - his suicide note quoted a Communist creed, and mocked capitalism. Sarah Palin was blamed for the shooting of Gabby Giffords and a federal judge, though no connection was ever discovered. Bill Clinton blamed right-wing talk radio for the OKC bombing, despite any clear evidence that the bombers were motivated by same.
On the other side, we have a rather clear-cut case of BLM marchers publicly calling for the murder of police officers, and several police officers (in Dallas and NYC) murdered.
I did learn that the march I referred to was an affiliated group, and perhaps not officially BLM.
If there were, why don't you mention at least one example?
So do you think a racist movement that calls for the murder of police officers is at all to blame, when people murder police officers, and call it revenge for Eric Garner and Michael Brown? (New York City, 2014) Or when someone allied with the New Black Panthers goes on a racist killing spree against police, at a BLM event in Dallas?
Then why did you cite someone NOT saying that?
Also, how many are you calling a lot? Not that one death isn't of huge significance by itself, but you said "a lot," so the numbers must be meaningful to you. How many?
It's funny. I don't recall saying that no one from the right side of the aisle has ever called for the murder of anyone.
I do recall commenting on the fact that left-wing press and politicians blame right-wing "rhetoric" for unrelated violence, while downplaying the actual connections between left-wing rhetoric and the violence they commit. I don't see that being refuted any time soon.
Again, every death is significant (since all lives matter smiley), but since you said "a lot" of people have been killed, let's look at the numbers. Three people have been killed since Tiller, though I don't think any of them were actually clinic employees.
According to the National Abortion Federation, there have been eleven people killed by anti-abortion violence in the U.S., the first one in 1993.
http://prochoice.org/education-and-advocacy/violence/violence-statistics-and-history/
2014: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/21/2-nypd-cops-shot-in-car-critically-injured.html
2015: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/police-kill-north-county-man-wanted-in-fatal-shooting-of/article_f4629c92-1769-557f-841d-2f8446c162cd.html
2016: Five police officers murdered in Dallas
So in forty-some years (since Roe v Wade), anti-abortion vigilantes have killed 11 people. BLM has killed 8 in under two years.
You're making things up now, because I haven't said anything like that. I never drew any line between the fringe and the mainstream. I did acknowledge that the internet is rife with violent talk from all sides. But I was referring to people like Sarah Palin, and Rush Limbaugh, and the Tea Party movement, all of which have been falsely accused of inciting violence at various times. Again, to clarify, I wasn't talking about them because they're not "fringe," but because they, specifically, have been unfairly accused.
We have video of BLM chanting for "dead cops."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4ARsxrZh8
Is there such a video or audio from Fox News programs, from Rush Limbaugh, from a Tea Party rally, or any other such? And who has been murdered because of it?
And again, your Ann Coulter quote is not an example of this. You're smart enough to understand why.
I accept. Add to the count, if you like.
Oh, were those Million Man marcher guys too much on the fringe? Are they not BLM-ey enough for you?
You're hilarious. Thanks for propping up my point. On the Palin thing, your own link (after the moral panic about some obviously metaphoric language) admits that there's no link between the shooter and Palin.
The Limbaugh thing is even weaker, for your point. How is anyone incited to violence by Rush talking about how the Hondurans should invade us? As Honduras didn't invade, it apparently incited no one.
Sad. You're so off your game today.
Also, I'm not sure where you get the idea that I claimed there were news media, or talk show hosts asking for police to be killed. What I'm saying is that the left, especially their media arm, is reluctant to blame their own side, when violent rhetoric coincides with actual violence. So you'd counter my argument by finding the establishment press blaming lefties for violent rhetoric.
Now, my original point was that the left tends to downplay the presence of hateful or violent rhetoric on their side, and to obsess over remarks from the right that in many cases are not hateful or violent, and then blame them for violence that in some cases is committed by leftists. You and De Selby have provided a few examples here. The Joe Walsh stuff is the closest either of you have come to something that is (arguably) violent rhetoric from any media figure on the right.
To quote myself again:
I was referring to people like Sarah Palin, and Rush Limbaugh, and the Tea Party movement, all of which have been falsely accused of inciting violence at various times. Again, to clarify, I wasn't talking about them because they're not "fringe," but because they, specifically, have been unfairly accused.
It does seem I lost sight of my own point a couple of times, over the course of the conversation. Some of my comments did not serve my original point, but they hardly amount to excusing right-wing violence or violent language, to the extent that it exists.
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And police radio transcript says he matched description of armed robbery suspect
Black man with a wide nose. Right up there with short, dark haired Asian man in the "highly specific descriptions" hall of fame.
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I'm sitting in an airport watching a CNN crawl, so I don't have a lot of details, but I saw the officer in this shooting was charged with manslaughter today.
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I'm sitting in an airport watching a CNN crawl, so I don't have a lot of details, but I saw the officer in this shooting was charged with manslaughter today.
Yep. Ouch.
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I'm sitting in an airport watching a CNN crawl, so I don't have a lot of details, but I saw the officer in this shooting was charged with manslaughter today.
Heard it on the radio. As I said at the time, the only thing surprising about this case is that the BLM people may have accidentally chosen a circumstance where the person killed by the police officer was wholly innocent.
(And, I notice they don't talk about this one anymore. Which reverts to the observed pattern, at least.)
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Heard it on the radio. As I said at the time, the only thing surprising about this case is that the BLM people may have accidentally chosen a circumstance where the person killed by the police officer was wholly innocent.
(And, I notice they don't talk about this one anymore. Which reverts to the observed pattern, at least.)
What are you talking about? When did BLM stop talking about this one?
Are you sure you aren't referring to the mainstream media?
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http://www.kare11.com/news/local/officer-charged-in-philando-castile-shooting/352780092
Cop is charged with manslaughter 2.
Gun was found inside the man's front pocket by the paramedics after they unbuckled the seatbelt and took him out of the car to treat him.
Here's the actual complaint:
https://www.scribd.com/document/331322209/Minnesota-vs-Yanez-Jeronimo-Complaint-11-16-16-New#fullscreen&from_embed