Author Topic: Palin Wins  (Read 7575 times)

roo_ster

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Palin Wins
« on: August 15, 2009, 01:28:14 PM »
As this episode played out, it just got better & better.

The Dems & MSM will always prtray the conservative as an idiot and the liberal as a genius.



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204409904574350400852801602.html

Palin Wins
If she's dim and Obama is brilliant, how did he lose the argument to her?


By JAMES TARANTO

The first we heard about Sarah Palin's "death panels" comment was in a conversation last Friday with an acquaintance who was appalled by it. Our interlocutor is not a Democratic partisan but a high-minded centrist who deplores extremist rhetoric whatever the source. We don't even know if he has a position on ObamaCare. From his description, it sounded to us as though Palin really had gone too far.

A week later, it is clear that she has won the debate.


President Obama himself took the comments of the former governor of the 47th-largest state seriously enough to answer them directly in his so-called town-hall meeting Tuesday in Portsmouth, N.H. As we noted Wednesday, he was callous rather than reassuring, speaking glibly--to audience laughter--about "pulling the plug on grandma."

The Los Angeles Times reports that Palin has won a legislative victory as well:
Quote
    A Senate panel has decided to scrap the part of its healthcare bill that in recent days has given rise to fears of government "death panels," with one lawmaker suggesting the proposal was just too confusing.

    The Senate Finance Committee is taking the idea of advance care planning consultations with doctors off the table as it works to craft its version of healthcare legislation, a Democratic committee aide said Thursday.

    Sen. Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, ranking Republican on the committee, said the panel dropped the idea because it could be "misinterpreted or implemented incorrectly." . . .

    The Palin claim about "death panels" was so widely discredited that the White House has begun openly quoting it in an effort to show that opponents of the healthcare overhaul are misinformed.

You have to love that last bit. The fearless, independent journalists of the Los Angeles Times justify their assertion that the Palin claim was "widely discredited" with an appeal to authority--the authority of the White House, which is to say, the other side in the debate. One suspects the breathtaking inadequacy of this argument would have been obvious to Times reporters Christi Parsons and Andrew Zajac if George W. Bush were still president. And of course this appears in a story about how the Senate was persuaded to act in accord with Palin's position--which doesn't prove that position right but does show that it is widely (though, to be sure, not universally) credited.
Podcast

One can hardly deny that Palin's reference to "death panels" was inflammatory. But another way of putting that is that it was vivid and attention-getting.
Level-headed liberal commentators who favor more government in health care, including Slate's Mickey Kaus and the Washington Post's Charles Lane, have argued that the end-of-life provision in the bill is problematic--acknowledging in effect (and, in Kaus's case, in so many words) that Palin had a point.

If you believe the media, Sarah Palin is a mediocre intellect, if even that, while President Obama is brilliant. So how did she manage to best him in this debate? Part of the explanation is that disdain for Palin reflects intellectual snobbery more than actual intellect. Still, Obama's critics, in contrast with Palin's, do not deny the president's intellectual aptitude. Intelligence, however, does not make one immune from hubris.

For a wonderful example of such hubris, check out this post from David Kurtz of TalkingPointsMemo.com:

Quote
    Is there anything quite as unsettling as when the nation's political class (and I use that term broadly to encompass the occasionally political, like the tea partiers) turns its fleeting but intense focus to a new (for them) and complex topic, like end-of-life issues?

    It seems like years of painstaking work to nudge our death-denying culture toward a more frank and humane approach to our own mortality and dying could be erased by one misguided national discussion set off by none other than Sarah Palin.
Except that Palin didn't "set off" this discussion; President Obama did by trying to ram through legislation postalizing the medical system with no time for debate or reflection. How to care for dying patients is a serious, sensitive and complicated matter, one with which American families struggle every day. If you truly don't want the "political class" involved, your quarrel is with the man who is pushing for more federal involvement in this most personal of matters. It's entirely understandable that people would respond to such an effort by shouting, "Keep your laws off my grandma!"
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roo_ster

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Gowen

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2009, 01:45:54 PM »
First obamacare....  Next Logan's run.  It may not be 36 year olds running from the government, but what about 75 or 80 year olds?  If you can't produce, see ya.
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Clem

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2009, 10:12:31 PM »
We are already hearing stories about the budget sensitive government health services. A lady in Oregon, where they have some sort of state health service, had lung cancer. She was a smoker and 64 yrs. old. The state said they wouldn't pay for the chemo drugs: too expensive; but they would pay for a poison to allow her to take her own life. Marvelous. Not to worry. Without the chemo, she died.

BridgeRunner

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2009, 02:32:48 PM »
We are already hearing stories about the budget sensitive government health services. A lady in Oregon, where they have some sort of state health service, had lung cancer. She was a smoker and 64 yrs. old. The state said they wouldn't pay for the chemo drugs: too expensive; but they would pay for a poison to allow her to take her own life. Marvelous. Not to worry. Without the chemo, she died.

Iirc, in that case it was not standard or second line chemo drugs, which had already failed (after having been paid for by the state), but a new, experimental drug.  Check your private health insurance policy.  I'll bet it specifically excludes experimental drugs and procedures.

Heck, there's an experimental surgery that could potentially make my life a LOT better.  I can't get it because virtually no insurer will pay for it--state or private.  Such is life. 

280plus

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2009, 05:05:27 PM »
Right, lots of experimental stuff out there but insurance will not pay for it. If you've got the money to pay for it yourself you're in good shape but a lot of times that won't save you either. Farah comes to mind as the latest example.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2009, 11:33:31 PM »
Another problem is getting FDA approval for experimental treatments.  I recall there being quite a fuss when my uncle was dying of cancer.  There was some sort of experimental procedure that might have helped him, but the doctors weren't allowed to administer it because it hadn't been proven safe yet.  I don't understand how a treatment could be riskier than dying, but there it is.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2009, 11:36:43 PM »
If only there were a government program that would force the FDA to approve more treatments. 

Oh wait. 
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RevDisk

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2009, 01:24:40 AM »
Another problem is getting FDA approval for experimental treatments.  I recall there being quite a fuss when my uncle was dying of cancer.  There was some sort of experimental procedure that might have helped him, but the doctors weren't allowed to administer it because it hadn't been proven safe yet.  I don't understand how a treatment could be riskier than dying, but there it is.

Because the government operates on the presumption that they know better than you do.

Same reason why folks who are obviously going to die aren't allowed to get blitzed out of their minds on happy pills.  Don't want them to become addicts in their last few days on the planet.  Read up on DEA vs chronic pain.  I can at least somewhat understand the FDA approving or delaying experimental stuff.  I don't understand cops telling doctors what is appropriate dosages.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2009, 01:35:21 AM »
Same reason why folks who are obviously going to die aren't allowed to get blitzed out of their minds on happy pills.  Don't want them to become addicts in their last few days on the planet.  Read up on DEA vs chronic pain. 


I'm not too familiar with the issues here, but I'll offer an anecdote that may be relevant. 

A fellow I knew died of cancer, leaving behind quite a number of morphine pills.  Given some of the shady characters (family and friends) that were frequenting the home at the time of mourning, his wife decided to have her pastor take custody of the stuff, lest they end up "on the street."

I suppose that may be the kind of scenario that worries the DEA.  If they can be accused of having any such social consciousness.  Of course, other considerations may outweigh that. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2009, 01:46:13 AM »
Given I suffer from chronic pain (my doctor says ordinary painkillers should be enough, I don't even feel any effects from them), I am sorry but I cannot emphatize with that sort of logic.
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RevDisk

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2009, 01:47:49 AM »

A fellow I knew died of cancer, leaving behind quite a number of morphine pills.  Given some of the shady characters (family and friends) that were frequenting the home at the time of mourning, his wife decided to have her pastor take custody of the stuff, lest they end up "on the street."

Uh...  Her pastor committed felony possession.  Not sure how long of a sentence that usually gets, but I'm pretty sure it falls under manditory sentencing guidelines.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2009, 03:37:10 AM »
I think there are actually guidelines that allow for limited use of experimental treatments in cases where a person will be dead before final approval, but they tend to be very limited.  I think the reasoning is that while the consequences for that person can't usually be worse than dying, the moral and ethical problems of human experimentation prevent unlimited use even in cases where the treatment has the potential to forestall death.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2009, 04:37:34 AM »
Uh...  Her pastor committed felony possession.  Not sure how long of a sentence that usually gets, but I'm pretty sure it falls under manditory sentencing guidelines.

...wow, the War on Drugs is awesome.

And by awesome I mean, "awesomely Cthulhu-grade evil", of course.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2009, 04:38:33 AM »
Quote
I think the reasoning is that while the consequences for that person can't usually be worse than dying, the moral and ethical problems of human experimentation prevent unlimited use even in cases where the treatment has the potential to forestall death.

Bioethicist is clearly yet another word for "evil bastard".
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huzzah

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2009, 10:04:52 AM »
American politics depresses me a lot. Yes, "death panels" is a ridiculous turn of phrase and it is certainly propagandist. But yes, the government will "pull the plug on grandma", at some point. This isn't a hypothetical, it is already established practice in Britain to deny healthcare on the state that is known to exist and to increase life expectancy and/or quality of life on grounds of cost.

So yet again the republican sounds like a moron and is widely disbelieved because of it, even though the democrat is the one who is really being duplicious.

Gewehr98

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2009, 10:42:32 AM »
Quote
Because the government operates on the presumption that they know better than you do.

I'm not saying FDA is the best oversight program, but I'll throw one word out there for y'all:

Thalidomide.

Some here are probably too young to remember that drug, and the nightmare that ensued.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide

As a new cog in the bio-pharmaceutical wheel these days, the hoops I personally jump through to meet FDA guidelines would boggle the average American mind, I'm sure.  It's been said bio-pharms routinely sacrifice 9 out of every 10 upstart drugs to get just one through the  FDA approval process.  My company (Ikaria) is running many clinical trials on several new treatments, in anticipation that at least one or two will get the nod.   
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roo_ster

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2009, 10:49:49 AM »
...wow, the War on Drugs is awesome.

And by awesome I mean, "awesomely Cthulhu-grade evil", of course.

I was always content to assume human mortal-grade malevolence.  You know: self aggrandizement, tyrannical personality types, sociopathy, etc.

But, The DEA's policy on painkillers, chronic pain, and the terminally ill* does push the limits of mere human evil.




* FTR, my grandpa, a WWII vet, died from colon cancer & its metastasized follow-on tumors.  He couldn't get enough painkillers to deal with the pain, so my grandparents' neighbor, who rode & wrenched on Harleys, was able to score him a "lifetime supply" of wacky tobaccy.  It most certainly did help, according to grandma.
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roo_ster

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Iain

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2009, 11:28:57 AM »
American politics depresses me a lot. Yes, "death panels" is a ridiculous turn of phrase and it is certainly propagandist. But yes, the government will "pull the plug on grandma", at some point. This isn't a hypothetical, it is already established practice in Britain to deny healthcare on the state that is known to exist and to increase life expectancy and/or quality of life on grounds of cost.

So yet again the republican sounds like a moron and is widely disbelieved because of it, even though the democrat is the one who is really being duplicious.

Tell me who isn't pulling the plug at some point based on cost?

Also - http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/08/13/oh-those-death-panels/
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2009, 12:56:52 PM »
Quote
Also - http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/08/13/oh-those-death-panels/

And? I don't see how people on this forum need to support something just because the GOP supported it in 2003.
Also, the Death Panels are dead. They've been removed from the bill.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2009, 01:12:06 PM »
Tell me who isn't pulling the plug at some point based on cost?

Also - http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/08/13/oh-those-death-panels/
I'd have to dig deeper to be sure, but it appears that the 2003 bill allows Medicare to pay for death counseling if the patient wants it.  That's a far sight different from expecting everyone to submit to death counseling, or imposing QALY-type cost benefit analyses on saving lives.

Edit: Yup, having read the 2003 bill, all it says is that Medicare is allowed to pay for hospice care, end of life counseling, and other services for patients who elect such coverage.

None of it has anything to do with "pulling the plug based on cost".
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 12:12:42 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

MicroBalrog

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2009, 01:16:56 PM »
The fact the GOP (which at te time was composed of different members of Congress and Senators than today) did something wrong in 2003 does not mean they should support something like that today. That has even less bearing of what rank and file members and supporters should do.
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Stetson

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2009, 11:23:24 AM »
End of life counseling is not a bad thing.  My mom is a hospice nurse and she gives the counseling, to her patients that are terminal.

It helps, the family mostly, because the patient, by the time they get to hospice, know whats going to happen and are resigned to the fact.

Balog

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2009, 11:24:54 AM »
I think it's the fed.gov mandated aspect people aren't happy with.
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roo_ster

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2009, 11:32:33 AM »
Also, the Death Panels are dead. They've been removed from the bill.

The death panels are still in the three House bills that are floating about.  The death panel-o-ectomy was only in the Senate version.  It can easily come back during reconciliation.
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roo_ster

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Iain

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Re: Palin Wins
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2009, 11:38:21 AM »
Where is the mandatory aspect of this coming from?
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