Author Topic: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage  (Read 3379 times)

Harold Tuttle

  • Professor Chromedome
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,069
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« on: March 15, 2007, 03:51:09 PM »
interesting:


March 7, 2007   
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
By Chris Demorro
Staff Writer
http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188


The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate green car is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.
Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Priuss EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldnt be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the dead zone around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalists nightmare.

The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside, said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesnt end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce nickel foam. From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I havent even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Priuss arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called Dust to Dust, the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

Sindawe

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,938
  • Vashneesht
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2007, 04:26:41 PM »
One of my neighbors just bought a new Prius, and the I can see the smug cloud forming already.  Maybe I should print this out and tuck it under his windsheild wiper tonight. <Big Evil Grin>
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,625
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2007, 04:29:42 PM »
One of my neighbors just bought a new Prius, and the I can see the smug cloud forming already.  Maybe I should print this out and tuck it under his windsheild wiper tonight. <Big Evil Grin>

<Big evil laugh!>
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Declaration Day

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,409
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2007, 04:36:13 PM »
Yes, you should!  grin

45mpg?  Bah.  My Hyundai Accent has achieved up to 44mpg on the freeway, and was $10,500 new.

CAnnoneer

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,136
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2007, 04:37:56 PM »
I am afraid the above is full of half-truths spun to an obvious bias to produce a factually abysmal article.

1) Mileage

A hybrid is designed to be used in a city, where the vehicle undergoes frequent stops and moves at a low average speed. A petrol car is wasteful in such a regime, because the engine idles at every red light, while all the energy of braking is dissipated into heat. By contrast, a hybrid does not idle the petrol engine while braking involves transferring the energy into battery power. Notice that the hybrid has better mileage in a city than on the freeway.

Where the hybrid is nothing special is the freeway, because essentially constant speed is maintained for prolonged periods and so the hybrid scheme does not help. Moreover, the petrol engine has to lug around the batteries which are heavy.

2) Environmental damage in production

Batteries are indeed impactful. However, this is a one-time investment that has to be ballanced against many years of continuous service. Comparing the total impact will reveal the Hummer is worse due to the lower mileage.

3) Cost per mile

This is a closed box of a calculation and thus cannot be checked or refuted. Something to note though is the curious statement of 100,000 miles ceiling for the hybrid. Where does this come from? Is it just the battery life or is the entire car supposed to be scrapped? It sounds highly dubious, especially since economy cars, particularly Toyotas, are operated well beyond 200,000 miles.

Bigjake

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,024
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2007, 04:42:15 PM »
Tell them prius folks not to get thier panties in a wad.

My F250 now idles around the clock to compesate for whatever greenhouse gasses they miss.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,066
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2007, 04:58:24 PM »
Quote
Batteries are indeed impactful. However, this is a one-time investment that has to be ballanced against many years of continuous service.

Actually I'm not sure they'll be a one time impact. It appears the battery arrays need to be replaced every 5 years or so. I suppose we'll have to wait till enough Priuses (Priusi? What the hell is the plural of Prius?) reach 5 + years, but the concentrated HAZMAT created and disposed of at least twice over the average life of the vehicle could add up to a lot more pollution than what you'd get over the life of an equivalent sized gasoline vehicle.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2007, 05:23:34 PM »
Huh?

Quote
A petrol car is wasteful in such a regime

Never knew Cannoneer was a Limey.  Over here, we call it "gasoline", even in the Deepest South. 

My Suburban-owning stepson will love the printout of the above article, even if it is Greenpeace-derived.

Nobody's made mention of the replacement cost and environmental impact of disposing of those nickel-metal-hydride batteries after they've exceeded their useful life (see the 5-year comment by BenW).  It's also why folks are hesitant to purchase used hybrids to date.
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

Sindawe

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,938
  • Vashneesht
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2007, 06:22:41 PM »
Oh come on Gewehr98, even those of us who's families have been here since before the founding of the Republic will use the word petrol on occasion.  It just sounds right in some circumstances.

Quote
Nobody's made mention of the replacement cost and environmental impact of disposing of those nickel-metal-hydride batteries after they've exceeded their useful life (see the 5-year comment by BenW).  It's also why folks are hesitant to purchase used hybrids to date.

Too true.  A friends roommate inherited a Honda Insight hybrid from her father.  The friend coughed up close to $3,000 for a new battery pack on the thing since she has no money and at that point in time no car to get to work to earn more money.
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

French G.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,192
  • ohhh sparkles!
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2007, 06:23:44 PM »
Then on top of that consider the road litter all that battery becomes when the car crashes, the batteries are comprimised and do some thermal runaway, or are just spread all over the highway. I'd hate to be that HAZMAT firefighter.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

JimMarch

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 209
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2007, 08:26:32 PM »
GM is about to finally come out with a "series hybrid" instead of the "parallel hybrids" that are all the rage today.

Series hybrids don't have dual-drive-systems.  An internal combustion engine is used purely as a generator, which drives a modest battery pack, which drives an electric motor turning the rear wheels.

This setup is far simpler (in fact it's easy to homebrew) but doesn't accelerate as fast as the dual-drive setups unless you use a real monster of an electric motor.  Doing so would add expense but wouldn't cost fuel efficiency.

The big fuel savings come by running the internal combustion motor at exactly it's perfect fuel/performance curve.  It works OK with a gas engine but really comes into it's own with a diesel, which has a much narrower powerband.  A typical semi-tractor redlines at between 1,800 and 2,100 rpm and hence needs 9 to 18 gears in order to function.  Smaller diesels used in cars can be made with a somewhat wider powerband but once you go to a series hybrid, there's no need.

Diesel-electric submarines and locomotives are all series hybrid.

sumpnz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,336
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2007, 09:00:35 PM »
Jim - When they make a turbine-electric car I'll be interested.

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2007, 12:58:07 AM »
From what I hear the Prius battery life is 100,000 miles at which point it costs major dollars to replace. In other words are YOU going sink something on the order of $8,000 into your car with 100,000 miles on it?
Avoid cliches like the plague!

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,317
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2007, 04:31:45 AM »
Yep, the major crippling point of the hybrid is the battery. No one believes me when I tell them that the battery will need replacing in a few years at major expense...
Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,386
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2007, 04:39:40 AM »
I believe that both Honda and Toyota warranty the battery packs for 10 years, 100k miles.

Other than me, who really keeps a car for a decade these days?

Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Werewolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,126
  • Lead, Follow or Get the HELL out of the WAY!
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2007, 04:53:59 AM »
I believe that both Honda and Toyota warranty the battery packs for 10 years, 100k miles.

Other than me, who really keeps a car for a decade these days?


10 years - not many but a lot of folks keep 'em for 100K+ miles which means that 10 years thing is just so much hot air coming out of the marketing departments of Honda and Toyota because that warranty is an either or deal.
Life is short, Break the rules, Forgive quickly, Kiss slowly, Love
truly, Laugh uncontrollably, And never regret anything that made you smile.

Fight Me Online

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,772
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2007, 05:11:26 AM »
I am afraid the above is full of half-truths spun to an obvious bias to produce a factually abysmal article.

1) Mileage

A hybrid is designed to be used in a city, where the vehicle undergoes frequent stops and moves at a low average speed. A petrol car is wasteful in such a regime, because the engine idles at every red light, while all the energy of braking is dissipated into heat. By contrast, a hybrid does not idle the petrol engine while braking involves transferring the energy into battery power. Notice that the hybrid has better mileage in a city than on the freeway.

Where the hybrid is nothing special is the freeway, because essentially constant speed is maintained for prolonged periods and so the hybrid scheme does not help. Moreover, the petrol engine has to lug around the batteries which are heavy.

2) Environmental damage in production

Batteries are indeed impactful. However, this is a one-time investment that has to be ballanced against many years of continuous service. Comparing the total impact will reveal the Hummer is worse due to the lower mileage.

3) Cost per mile

This is a closed box of a calculation and thus cannot be checked or refuted. Something to note though is the curious statement of 100,000 miles ceiling for the hybrid. Where does this come from? Is it just the battery life or is the entire car supposed to be scrapped? It sounds highly dubious, especially since economy cars, particularly Toyotas, are operated well beyond 200,000 miles.
1.  I don't know where you live, but in Houston, you cannot get around town without getting on the freeway and driving at least 60 or more MPH.  Including some highway miles in the calculation is reasonable.  Not to mention that a lot of those greenie types like to get out in the country on occasion.  I used to commute about 35 or 40 miles in Houston.  Half or more of my commute was at 60 MPH plus.  The other half was slower and stop-n-go. 
2.  According to the article, they did account for the total environmental impact and the Hummer was less.  Doesn't mean you buy a Hummer to save the environment, it only suggests that a fuel efficient gas/diesel only car might be a better choice today. 
3.  Yes, economy cars are driven beyond 100,000 miles.  A Prius is not the average economy car though.  As I said above, in today's market, the better environmental car might just be a 40+ MPG gas/diesel only car.  Hopefully, that will change.  The calculation appears to be total cost of the vehicle, fuel, maintenance over the life of the vehicle divided by the miles.  One of those gas only cars with a long warranty and cheap price would likely beat the Prius in that calc.  The technology for gas engines is mature.  It will take some time for electric cars to become truly better.

What caught my eye more was the discussion of that plant in Canada.  I thought only the US was the polluting country where evil corporations destroy the environment in pursuit of the almighty dollar.  Where is Captain Planet when you need him?  Smiley
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

CAnnoneer

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,136
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2007, 06:38:53 AM »
Quote
A petrol car is wasteful in such a regime.

Never knew Cannoneer was a Limey.  Over here, we call it "gasoline", even in the Deepest South. 

In certain cases I prefer British English to avoid confusion. Most people say "gas" when they mean "gasoline"; well, air, nitrogen, oxygen are also "gas" at normal conditions. Also, there is little "gassy" about "gasoline". Since the primary component is benzene, maybe that's what we should call it. "Petrol" is pretty clear. Also, hybrids are also known as "petro-electric cars", so a gasoline-only car makes sense to be called "petrol car".

In any case, Jim March is right about the new hybrids. A fuel-cell car would probably be even more efficient.

Art Eatman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,442
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2007, 06:45:05 AM »
Pollution?  Why do you think "those jobs all went overseas"?  For many industrial processes, the anti-pollution laws of the U.S. made it far more profitable to do mining, smelting and refining processes in countries where the laws weren't as restrictive or weren't enforced.  But the perfectionistas here are quite happy to badmouth our remaining problems as though nothing has ever been done in these past forty years.

Sorry, CAnnoneer, but that sort of environmental damage is unacceptable, to me.  And it's no one-time event, given that most cars go through several owners before being scrapped.  Used car lots, remember?  You devolve from the world of low-mileage "Pre-owned" on down, finally, to "Honest Joe's No Down Payment" junkers at $25/week.

The cost per mile numbers are scary.  I'd been at about $0.14 per mile on Lil Toy, my 1985 Toyota 4WD PU for its 290,000 miles.  I just spent some $3,500 on a refurbishment, or 1.25 ¢ per mile added.  So, for drill, call it some 16 cents per mile since new, total of all costs.  But a buck-ninety-five for a stupid Hummer?  Yikes!  Three-some-odd for a silly little Prius?  Estupido mejor!

I'd rather have a Civic.

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2007, 08:57:23 AM »
Quote
Other than me, who really keeps a car for a decade these days?
I call attention to my 1990 Plymouth Acclaim. ~89,000 miles and my 1995 F-150 ~96,000 miles.  smiley
Avoid cliches like the plague!

RadioFreeSeaLab

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,200
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2007, 11:20:18 AM »
Yes, you should!  grin

45mpg?  Bah.  My Hyundai Accent has achieved up to 44mpg on the freeway, and was $10,500 new.
Hey! Mine too!  I have a 2007 GS, what do you have?

crt360

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,206
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2007, 11:56:11 AM »
I have an 85 Toyota that I've figured at about $0.12 per mile.  It'd make me sick to spend $3+ per mile (unless, maybe, the car had a little Italian horsey badge on the hood and I was filthy rich).  I once had a job where I commuted from San Antonio to Austin and back three times a week.  Calculate that at $3 per mile.
For entertainment purposes only.

Declaration Day

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,409
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2007, 12:45:02 PM »
Yes, you should!  grin

45mpg?  Bah.  My Hyundai Accent has achieved up to 44mpg on the freeway, and was $10,500 new.
Hey! Mine too!  I have a 2007 GS, what do you have?

Mine's an '01 GS, I bought it slightly used for $4,600.  The Prius may get marginally better mileage, but at a much higher cost and much greater complexity.

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2007, 12:46:58 PM »
Quote
45mpg?  Bah.  My Hyundai Accent has achieved up to 44mpg on the freeway, and was $10,500 new.

Yeah, my 1.6L, 16-valve 2003 Accent did quite well on the Interstate between Florida and Wisconsin, too.  I remember getting 38mpg at 80mph.  My wife drove the return leg, and she throttled back to 65-70mph, which got her 42mpg. 



We traded it in for a 2005 Elantra, 2.0L.  Still good gas mileage, but not quite as thrifty as the Accent.
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

RadioFreeSeaLab

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,200
Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2007, 12:51:18 PM »
My record is 46.5 mpg across the desert from San Diego to Yuma.  It was at night, windows up, 70 mph the entire way.
Average works out to 28-31 depending on how I drive.