Author Topic: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage  (Read 3378 times)

Brad Johnson

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Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2007, 01:03:54 PM »
Notwistanding the environmental impact from any number of related industries/things, how about just comparing apples to apples on actual ownership costs over time...

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Brad
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Art Eatman

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Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2007, 06:46:12 AM »
I haven't seen anybody factor in the insurance premiums for a Prius, as compared to a normal car.  Collision insurance might well be higher, although I've not checked.

But if the reason for a Prius is to reduce environmental impacts and reduce energy consumption, you either look at all impacts and energy uses, or ignore a big bunch of reality.

Leachate from mining of iron, copper or nickel does Bad Things.  The Prius equals other small cars for steel and wire, but uses hellaciously more nickel.

I wish I knew more about the energy consumed in production of exotic batteries.  It certainly takes more for processing nickel than it does lead.

Without regard for the first owner, the total cost of a Prius, seems to me, should include the second and third batteries as the car moves on through the chain of used-car owners.  With a conventional engine, if you're rational about changing oil and filter and valve adjustment, and use distilled water in the radiator, 300K miles with no major repairs isn't difficult to achieve.  I won't talk about auto-trans, though. Cheesy

I dunno.  I've done a whole bunch of wrench-bending and bought and sold a helluva lot of cars, these last fifty years.  I'm always suspicious of "band wagons" about what's good.

Art
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HiroProX

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Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2007, 07:57:43 PM »
Quote
Batteries are indeed impactful. However, this is a one-time investment that has to be ballanced against many years of continuous service.

Actually I'm not sure they'll be a one time impact. It appears the battery arrays need to be replaced every 5 years or so. I suppose we'll have to wait till enough Priuses (Priusi? What the hell is the plural of Prius?) reach 5 + years, but the concentrated HAZMAT created and disposed of at least twice over the average life of the vehicle could add up to a lot more pollution than what you'd get over the life of an equivalent sized gasoline vehicle.

Nevermind that the cost of replacing such a high capacity battery pack will only add to the TCO. And having purchased large NiCad and NiMH battery packs before, the cost would nearly be on par with replacing the Hummer's engine at the 300,000 mile mark.
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Tallpine

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Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2007, 09:46:53 PM »
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Other than me, who really keeps a car for a decade these days?

Well, one of our vehicles is 16 years old and the other is 31 Tongue

Both are big hunks of American iron  Wink

I also have a Case tractor that was built in 1950.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Art Eatman

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Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2007, 06:05:02 AM »
9N Ford tractor from around 1950.  1954 Fiat-Allis road grader.  1978 Case 580C backhoe.  1980 GMC 9000 dumptruck.  1985 Toyota 4WD PU.  1994 Pontiac sedan.

Hmmm.  1890-something Krag.  1900 Schutzen rifle.  1911 Luger.  1920s Mauser and Walther pistols.  1952 Model 70.  1970 Weatherby and 1970 Sako.   

They all work just fine. Cheesy
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AJ Dual

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Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2007, 06:19:45 AM »
Amen! When I first heard of hybrids, this is what I thought they were going to be, engine->generator->battery->DC motor. When I figured out they were "parallel hybrids" switching between engines and battery with a complicated drivetrain... I thought "WTF are they doing?"  undecided

Then I realized it was all just a marketing ploy.

I bet if you confronted all hybrid owners with the TCO and total energy investment in their production 90%+ would just go into denial, and of that, if you pressed them hard with the numbers, they'd fall back to a position of "It'll help in the long run, I'm helping drive new technology with my consumer dollars.."  rolleyes

GM is about to finally come out with a "series hybrid" instead of the "parallel hybrids" that are all the rage today.

Series hybrids don't have dual-drive-systems.  An internal combustion engine is used purely as a generator, which drives a modest battery pack, which drives an electric motor turning the rear wheels.

This setup is far simpler (in fact it's easy to homebrew) but doesn't accelerate as fast as the dual-drive setups unless you use a real monster of an electric motor.  Doing so would add expense but wouldn't cost fuel efficiency.

The big fuel savings come by running the internal combustion motor at exactly it's perfect fuel/performance curve.  It works OK with a gas engine but really comes into it's own with a diesel, which has a much narrower powerband.  A typical semi-tractor redlines at between 1,800 and 2,100 rpm and hence needs 9 to 18 gears in order to function.  Smaller diesels used in cars can be made with a somewhat wider powerband but once you go to a series hybrid, there's no need.

Diesel-electric submarines and locomotives are all series hybrid.
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Tallpine

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Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2007, 06:28:31 AM »
9N Ford tractor from around 1950.  1954 Fiat-Allis road grader.  1978 Case 580C backhoe.  1980 GMC 9000 dumptruck.  1985 Toyota 4WD PU.  1994 Pontiac sedan.

Hmmm.  1890-something Krag.  1900 Schutzen rifle.  1911 Luger.  1920s Mauser and Walther pistols.  1952 Model 70.  1970 Weatherby and 1970 Sako.   

They all work just fine. Cheesy

And you bought all of those brand new when they were first made, right?  Tongue
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Strings

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Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2007, 10:42:36 AM »
I'm pretty sure it was only the guns he bought new, Tallpine. I could be mistaken though...

Ben

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Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2007, 01:22:39 PM »
So are we replacing the phrase "older than dirt" with "older than Art"??  Tongue  laugh
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Art Eatman

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Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2007, 02:11:54 PM »
Well, the Sako, the Wby & the Toy were new when I got them.  A lot of my stuff came as good-used.  Some of it's well-used, headed toward "wo' out". Smiley  Sorta like me. Cheesy

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

tokugawa

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Re: Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2007, 04:15:51 PM »
DASMI let the cat out!  (of his special custom-made 1 cat-power turbine!)