Author Topic: L.A.P.D. kills hostage while taking out hostage taker. (Read 1284 times)

just Warren · « **on:** August 01, 2018, 12:27:06 AM »

The video is rough.

She might have been dead either way as it looks like he was trying to cut her throat.

So there might not have been a good outcome possible here.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #1 on:** August 01, 2018, 12:42:06 AM »

Very rough. Only one of the three officers had a somewhat clear shot.

makattak · « **Reply #2 on:** August 01, 2018, 08:21:44 AM »

Hey, according to the most pertinent police documentary I've seen, you are supposed to shoot the hostage.

Jocassee · « **Reply #3 on:** August 01, 2018, 08:22:49 AM »

I think this was a terrible, totally preventable outcome. That said, why didn't that lady un-ass the area when she had a chance?

TommyGunn · « **Reply #4 on:** August 01, 2018, 10:51:12 AM »

That went sideways very quickly, very poorly, and totally disgustingly.

MechAg94 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 01, 2018, 12:05:24 PM »

Looks like a situation where they should have pulled out rifles.

The one officer looked like he had a decent look at the hostage taker from a reasonable distance, but he was firing kind of fast to be certain of not hitting the hostage and I have no idea how good a shot he is. The officer on the other side did not have a good view and he fired a handful of times. I can't tell what he was aiming for, but unless it was the guys foot, I am not sure he should have fired at all.

Did the guy actually start killing the woman? I wasn't sure why the officers fired when they did.

MechAg94 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 01, 2018, 12:07:47 PM »

I guess the cold blooded view is this might make future hostage takers think twice before doing that.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #7 on:** August 01, 2018, 12:19:33 PM »

Quote from: MechAg94 on August 01, 2018, 12:07:47 PM

I guess the cold blooded view is this might make future hostage takers think twice before doing that.

That would be assuming a rational mind. This guy wasn't rational, so appealing to logic is a waste of time.

Kingcreek · « **Reply #8 on:** August 01, 2018, 12:23:59 PM »

Tough situation all around. Wait until he's cutting deep? Or take a really risky shot?
I used to be a pretty damn good pistolero but I wouldn't like to have to make that decision under those circumstances.
Officers should/could have instructed her to quickly vacate the area but they were totally focused on him.

Angel Eyes · « **Reply #9 on:** August 01, 2018, 02:01:53 PM »

They were just trying to negotiate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snRvmi8kelQ

brimic · « **Reply #10 on:** August 01, 2018, 02:38:05 PM »

Hard to blame the cops on this one...
I'm betting that the perp was out in the public due to light sentencing by a liberal judge though- its more often than not the case.

Angel Eyes · « **Reply #11 on:** August 01, 2018, 02:45:59 PM »

Quote from: Jocassee on August 01, 2018, 08:22:49 AM

I think this was a terrible, totally preventable outcome. That said, why didn't that lady un-ass the area when she had a chance?

It looked like she was using a walker, so she wasn't going anywhere quickly. She was probably very frightened, which tends to "freeze" one's ability to think and act.

I was wondering why the cops made no attempt to get the bystanders away from the suspect.

Yes, I am a Monday-morning quarterback in my spare time.

Fly320s · « **Reply #12 on:** August 01, 2018, 03:04:07 PM »

A hostage shot is a low-percentage shot. A large portion of the people I have attended shooting classes with can not make a hostage shot on a stationary paper target. That is a low-stress event. This event is high-stress, and the cops propbably have less training and skill than the people I shoot with.

All of that to say this: those cops probably shouldn't have shot. They were damned by either outcome, but only liable to one.

MechAg94 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 01, 2018, 05:42:47 PM »

I am thinking no shot also. If you think there is no good outcome, then approach until you are 100% sure of making the shot even if it is contact distance. Otherwise, he was only a direct threat to the woman. Taking a shot that risks shooting the woman is just not a good choice.

The decision is similar to the other thread showing the officer shooting through the windshield while driving. Is it worth shooting bystanders just to stop that high speed chase?

I doubt those two incidents were in the same area, but it does make you wonder about what those officers are trained to do these days.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #14 on:** August 01, 2018, 07:51:52 PM »

Quote from: MechAg94 on August 01, 2018, 05:42:47 PM

I doubt those two incidents were in the same area, but it does make you wonder about what those officers are trained to do these days.

To go home safely at the end of their shift.

On the basis of that overriding principle, this was a successful operation. The bad guy was neutralized, and all the cops went home safely (with paid vacation!). Oh, that woman? Collateral damage.

brimic · « **Reply #15 on:** August 02, 2018, 12:15:47 PM »

Quote from: Hawkmoon on August 01, 2018, 07:51:52 PM

To go home safely at the end of their shift.

Also: Resist shooting anyone that looks like they might be a minority, or else there will be riots, lawsuits, and death threats.
From the bit of video I saw, there was ample time and reason to shoot the perp before he grabbed a hostage.

AmbulanceDriver · « **Reply #16 on:** August 02, 2018, 01:17:33 PM »

That was a rough one to watch.

The officer on the left actually had a fairly decent/clear shot from what it looks like on the body camera... But it seems anymore they're trained to do mag dumps at something roughly resembling the center of mass. Now, I get that adrenaline, stress, etc makes that whole process a lot more complicated. But that's where training, training, and more training comes in. This was not a hostage shot where only 2 inches of the hostage takers head is visible. Pretty much his entire head is clear for the duration once he takes the hostage. Officer on the right had absolutely no clear shot.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #17 on:** August 02, 2018, 03:41:16 PM »

Quote from: AmbulanceDriver on August 02, 2018, 01:17:33 PM

The officer on the left actually had a fairly decent/clear shot from what it looks like on the body camera... But it seems anymore they're trained to do mag dumps at something roughly resembling the center of mass. Now, I get that adrenaline, stress, etc makes that whole process a lot more complicated. But that's where training, training, and more training comes in. This was not a hostage shot where only 2 inches of the hostage takers head is visible. Pretty much his entire head is clear for the duration once he takes the hostage. Officer on the right had absolutely no clear shot.

I think (if I read the article correctly) all three officers fired -- which means the TWO officers on the right didn't have a shot. The officer on the left certainly appeared to have a good, clear head shot.

I suspect that they are predisposed (perhaps even trained) such that when one officer fires, they all default to mag dump mode. If that's the case, the first guy might have taken a sure bet shot, and as soon as his first shot went off the other two started firing basically as an auto response.

MechAg94 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 02, 2018, 07:01:48 PM »

Quote from: Hawkmoon on August 02, 2018, 03:41:16 PM

I think (if I read the article correctly) all three officers fired -- which means the TWO officers on the right didn't have a shot. The officer on the left certainly appeared to have a good, clear head shot.

I suspect that they are predisposed (perhaps even trained) such that when one officer fires, they all default to mag dump mode. If that's the case, the first guy might have taken a sure bet shot, and as soon as his first shot went off the other two started firing basically as an auto response.

...and every day something else reminds me of the movie Idiocracy.

Scout26 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 02, 2018, 07:23:16 PM »

Real life ain't TV or a Movie or a practice Range. Often times, there is no "good" answer. Yes, they probably could have done things different before, but once he started to slit her throat, it was going to be bad.

Trying to second guess split second decisions, give me a break.

MechAg94 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 03, 2018, 10:57:27 AM »

Quote from: Amy Schumer on August 02, 2018, 07:23:16 PM

Real life ain't TV or a Movie or a practice Range. Often times, there is no "good" answer. Yes, they probably could have done things different before, but once he started to slit her throat, it was going to be bad.

Trying to second guess split second decisions, give me a break.

I was referring to all the officers shooting even when two of them didn't appear to have a clear shot. If you can't stop him from killing the woman, then you can't. If they don't have shot, don't shoot. From the video, only one officer should have been shooting. There may be more we aren't seeing of course.

What I remember from Idiocracy is the police showed up with full auto rifles and started spraying bullets everywhere by default. This wasn't that bad, but it reminded me of the movie.

cordex · « **Reply #21 on:** August 03, 2018, 11:09:57 AM »

Sympathetic fire is a thing. Not always a good thing, but a thing.

Fly320s · « **Reply #22 on:** August 03, 2018, 11:17:18 AM »

Quote from: cordex on August 03, 2018, 11:09:57 AM

Sympathetic fire is a thing. Not always a good thing, but a thing.

Which can be trained out of a person. In this case, these guys look like street cops, not SWAT, so I bet they haven't had any real training since the academy.

Mannlicher · « **Reply #23 on:** August 04, 2018, 09:53:25 AM »

one could make a good case that it's safer to defend yourself, than to depend on the cops.

zxcvbob · « **Reply #24 on:** August 04, 2018, 10:19:41 AM »

Quote from: Mannlicher on August 04, 2018, 09:53:25 AM

one could make a good case that it's safer to defend yourself, than to depend on the cops.

Just hope the cops don't show up just as you're finishing the job; they will shoot you dead.

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Author Topic: L.A.P.D. kills hostage while taking out hostage taker. (Read 1284 times)