Marijuana

[Jamisjockey]

So I guess shooting people at the border because they want to come here to work hard and get ahead is OK.  After all, they are criminals.
But shooting people who spread disease, poverty and misery is a no-no because, well, that's Libertarian.

Where have libertarians advocated machine-gunning people at the border?

I certainly never have.

[Guest]

...Deaths from drug-related crimes are not all that high, as the US total for all reasons is around 50K per year.  ...

I'm positive that deaths from the actual effects of illegal drugs is less than one-tenth that figure.

Deaths from prescription drugs is twice that figure.

[Justin]

My recollection is that marijuana smoke contains as much tar (or more) as cigarettes.  Of course smoking patterns are different as well.

Boy, you sure seem overly concerned with the health of people who you think ought to be shot.

Maybe they should be sent to the Pit of Despair before being summarily executed.

[cordex]

I'd smoke as much weed if it were legal as I drink alcohol now.  Which is none at all.  Neither appeals to me.

If marijuana is legalized, thousands of people will die from car accidents, robberies and health conditions related to marijuana use.  This would happen because some people like to be self-destructive.  If marijuana continues to be illegal, people will still die by the thousands from car accidents, robberies and health conditions related to marijuana use.  The number will be smaller, and law-abiding folks will tend towards destroying themselves and those around them with alcohol instead.

Notwithstanding Rabbi's affectionate obsession with his own drug of choice and his assertion that it is somehow more highbrow than the rabble's herbal choice, his drug is just that.  Today it's an expensive bottle of bourbon or scotch.  In ages past it was a Queen and Pope's cocaine tincture, an 18th century physician's ether, a wise man's hashish, and a Romantic or Victorian author's laudenum.

I guess that makes me a philistine.

[roo_ster]

Aside from the legal aspects of marijuana (I think most people here support its legalization on the basis that prohibition is morally wrong and does not work), what is your personal opinion of the recreational use of cannabis? How do you view it in comparison to alcohol or tobacco? Would you use cannabis if it were legal? What are your general thoughts, feelings, opinions on the subject?

There is a term for those who recreationally use mj on a regular basis over a length of time: LOSER

MJ use is tied up with several worthless sub-cultures which taint rec mj use and those who use it.  If a teenager/college student uses it, it is a sign that they lack maturity.  When an adult does the same...it is a sign that they lack maturity.

I would not use it recreationally, were mj legal.  I might use it in lieu of/in addition to pain med after surgery or some such.  That's about it.

MJ looks to be comparable to alcohol & tobacco with regard to health hazards.  Most mj is smoked without filter, but with less frequency than tobacco, so it seems to be a wash, helath-effects-wise.  Alcohol, however, is more dangerous in that you can actually OD & die from it, while mj does not, that I know of.  MJ, OTOH, saps motivation and esentially makes the habitual user rather worthless.  Oh, and mj stinks even worse than tobacco.  Foul smelling.  Quality tobacco & alcohol is pleasant-smelling and tasting.  "Quality" does not equate to Malrboro Reds, Bud, and rotgut whisky.

Though I have a negative view of mj & its users, I would not keep it illegal.  It is the biggest target in the War on Drugs.  While I find mj & its users worthy of contempt and not fit for polite society, the WoD is a howling maelstrom of destruction and much worse than legalized mj, heroin, meth, or whatever.

To sum up, I would hold rec mj users in contempt, but I would not subject them to any more legal repercussions than tobacco or alcohol users.

[Justin]

I will again point out that I honestly consider the end-user of MJ or any other drug to be the red herring in the drug legalization debate.

The problem with prohibition is that there's a ridiculous amount of fallout that negatively affects everyone, not just drug users.  From higher taxes to gun control to what drugs medical doctor is allowed to prescribe.

That's my problem with the War on Drugs.  I don't care about someone who wants to waste their life sitting on the couch eating Cheetos and watching Aqua Teen Hunger Force.  If that's what they want to do, it's no skin off my nose.  But as soon as the .gov wants to use the threat of force, financed with my money to execute a no-knock warrant on Mr. Stonerguy, I have a problem with it.

That's the problem.  When it comes to the drug war, everyone fixates on the drugs without paying attention to what they ought to.

[DrAmazon]

The restrictions on cold medicine are to restrict the starting material for meth.  Meth is really nasty-I think that the "first try addiction rate" is on the order of 80%.  The synthesis is very very dangerous and produces a lot of hazardous waste.  It's one of those drugs that is not a "personal choice" becuase it's social and economic effects are so broad.

I understand the science of the restrictions, but they do really tick me off.  I got really dirty looks at Walmart for muttering "let the junkies Darwin themselves" while I was digging out my drivers licence for sudafed.

[The Rabbi]

Notwithstanding Rabbi's affectionate obsession with his own drug of choice and his assertion that it is somehow more highbrow than the rabble's herbal choice, his drug is just that.  I guess that makes me a philistine.

I dont think I need to add any more.

[Monkeyleg]

My, my, my. So many paragons of virtue on this forum. For a minute I thought I was on the official Vatican website.

Get down off your crosses, 'cause you're not Jesus.

Give me a week to look into your life, and I'll bet you dimes to dollars that I can find something about you that others would object to.

It's only in the last few years--especially those years on THR and TFL--that I've given any serious consideration to legalizing drugs. But the libertarians--small "L" liberatians--have convinced me that the war on drugs is wrong.

And, before anyone goes into a rant about driving while stoned, that person is missing the point. Driving or doing anything else while impaired by alcohol, drugs, prescription meds, or even lack of sleep is not acceptable behavior.

Back about 1994 or so, an anonymous person ran a full-page ad in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel that stated that he had the Constitutional right to be left alone. That ad probably cost him $20,000 or more.

At the time, I thought the ad was just about the ban on Evil Black Rifles. Thinking back, though, I think the person was preaching a broader message.

[cordex]

Rabbi, I understand that you are really passionate about your booze, but while you're busy looking down your nose at pot smokers and saying "Those savages, why, they're burning a common weed and inhaling the smoke to addle their minds," remember that you've spent years and who knows how much money in order to aquire a taste for an expensive,  toxic, brown-stained, mind-altering, liver-destroying solvent composed largely of a dangerous and concentrated bacterial waste product that develops in rotting corn.  You're actually bragging about how much you like using it as a recreational drug and feeling that you're so much better than magic-brownie-munchers?  

Excuse me while I snicker.

I've got no problem with your bizarre, self-destructive, recreational habits, but man.  Yeah, if Rabbi's definition of uncivilized is someone who avoids both poison yeast piss and the smoke of certain burning veggies, then I'm uncivilized.  I'll happily take being sober over having Rabbi think I'm as cool as he is.

[Gewehr98]

Still sporting a chubby for Wildalaska, Blackburn?

[Gewehr98]

My, my, my. So many paragons of virtue on this forum. For a minute I thought I was on the official Vatican website.

Get down off your crosses, 'cause you're not Jesus.

Give me a week to look into your life, and I'll bet you dimes to dollars that I can find something about you that others would object to.

Dick, I should actually take you up on your challenge.  I'd love to find the dirt on my own piddly little existence, if simply for the fact that I hold an FFL license and a TS/SCI clearance, with "lifestyles" polygraph through Jan of 2009.   The feds have already crawled up my ass and exited the top end. Maybe you could find something they missed?  

(Not a paragon of virtue, but I certainly don't hold marijuana users and alcoholics in the same esteem as responsible human beings.  Maybe it's because I lost a brother to a drunk driver, maybe it's because I've had more random urinalysis tests in the last 20 years than I care for...)

[zahc]

"I certainly don't hold marijuana users and alcoholics in the same esteem as responsible human beings."

It's funny you said 'alchoholics' and not 'people that drink', yet you felt no need to say 'marijuana addicts' as if it's not ok to use THC recreationally, but it is ok to use alcohol socially.

It's entirely possible to use drugs recreationally and with self control, whether it's tobacco, weed, or alchohol. I, for instance, do.

[Sindawe]

... maybe it's because I've had more random urinalysis tests in the last 20 years than I care for...

Maybe you've a bit of hostility toward people who refuse to tolerate that sort of nonsense in their lives?

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi, I understand that you are really passionate about your booze, but while you're busy looking down your nose at pot smokers and saying "Those savages, why, they're burning a common weedand inhaling the smoke to addle their minds," remember that you've spent years and who knows how much money in order to aquire a taste for an expensive,  toxic, brown-stained, mind-altering, liver-destroying solvent composed largely of a dangerous and concentrated bacterial waste product that develops in rotting corn.  You're actually bragging about how much you like using it as a recreational drug and feeling that you're so much better than magic-brownie-munchers?  

Excuse me while I snicker.

It is the habit of the ignorant to make fun of what they don't understand.  Snicker away.

[HForrest]

It is the habit of the ignorant to make fun of what they don't understand.

So, um... what is it that he doesn't understand?

[BillBlank]

What is your personal opinion of the recreational use of cannabis?
I don't do it because I used to until I realised I was becoming an idiot. I still feel the negative effects nearly ten years after my last dose. I can get very angry quite quickly now and, worst of all, I'm now as thick as two short planks compared to my teenage years. I struggle with debate and find it hard sometimes to form a coherent riposte. I am very frustrated by this. I do not encourage it's use and do not regard it as "harmless". I do not care if people choose to smoke it though. Their body etc. etc.

How do you view it in comparison to alcohol or tobacco?
I'd rather be in a bar surrounded by potheads than drunk people. So in that respect you could say that pot is a "better" drug than alchohol. I just don't think we, as a species, are very good at enjoying any drugs without overindulging and harming ourselves or others, but we really seem to enjoy it and don't look like stopping getting high anytime soon. The link between pot smoking and mental illness is worrying as well. I like being sober mostly and have to balance that with the aesthetic pleasure I get from a glass of wine/whiskey.

Would you use cannabis if it were legal?
No

What are your general thoughts, feelings, opinions on the subject?
In my experience marijuana is a drug that leads to other drug use. If only because of the crowd of people that you meet on the way. Thankfully, god knows how (I have the feeling it was something to do with not wanting to die), I always managed to not indulge in other things. I have outlived three close acquaintences that were not so fortunate.
There is a very strong moral argument for not using any illegal drugs. Unless you grow it yourself then, at some point in the chain of suppliers, the money you spend on your gear ends up in the hands of violent criminals. Your money helps sustain a global industry that either kills, intimidates or ruins a lot of people. Whether thats an argument for legalisation or not, I don't know. What the western world is doing at the moment doesn't seem to be working either.

[cordex]

It is the habit of the ignorant to make fun of what they don't understand.  Snicker away.

It would be a sophomoric mistake to automatically confuse disagreement with misunderstanding.

I've never done pot and I wouldn't know good bud from lawn mulch, so I guess when I make fun of pot heads I'm displaying some ignorance there.  How about you?

[The Rabbi]

It wasn't automatic.

How does one evaluate a good bourbon?
How does one evaluate good marijuana?

[Sindawe]

Not being a consumer of either*, I'll hazard a guess...

How does one evaluate a good bourbon?

Color, visual clarity, aroma (bouquet?), smoothness,  initial taste, over/under tones to taste, aftertaste (finish?), severity of hangover if overindulged?

How does one evaluate good marijuana?

Color, shape, seeds, aroma, smoothness, initial taste, amount required to feel effects, type of effects, duration of effects?

* I prefer fine beers, Scotch Whiskey and cigars.

[publius]

I think that regulation of cannabis should be among "the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State." That means if you grow a plant and smoke it and your State says it's OK, that situation is none of the federal government's business. Justice Thomas agrees. Drug warriors don't.

Like previous drug war precedents, that one was quickly applied to firearms.

[Justin]

It is the habit of the ignorant to make fun of what they don't understand.  Snicker away.

[Mabs2]

Someone I know who used it always said that you can't smoke enough marijuana to not know who you were or where you were (Comparing it to alcohol).
He had been high many times and I NEVER suspected anything AT ALL.
And like has been said before, keeping illegal causes more harm than good.
I believe alcohol is a much more dangerous substance than marijuana...however, I do not think that should be illegal either.  But if I had to choose of a few drugs to be illegal, alcohol would be one.

[Oleg Volk]

I removed several rude posts. Trying to decide what to do about the authors.

[publius]

Give 'em each a bong hit, Oleg. Might improve the attitude.