Author Topic: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from  (Read 4234 times)

longeyes

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where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« on: April 03, 2009, 11:38:23 AM »
I think this story explains itself, but I will add that for me this story is really not about firearms per se, it is about LYING.  The lying we are seeing from people like Attorney General Eric Holder and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.  The lies are designed to soften up the American people for a crippling of the Second Amendment and, equally, to prepare them for the eventual integration, formal or informal, of the United States and Mexico, with an amnesty likely to be on the way soon.  That too will be compounded of distortions, lies, and damn lies.

Anyway, courtesy of Fox:

The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

While 90 percent of the guns traced to the U.S. actually originated in the United States, the percent traced to the U.S. is only about 17 percent of the total number of guns reaching Mexico.

By William La Jeunesse and Maxim Lott

FOXNews.com

Thursday, April 02, 2009

EXCLUSIVE: You've heard this shocking "fact" before -- on TV and radio, in newspapers, on the Internet and from the highest politicians in the land: 90 percent of the weapons used to commit crimes in Mexico come from the United States.

-- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said it to reporters on a flight to Mexico City.

-- CBS newsman Bob Schieffer referred to it while interviewing President Obama.

-- California Sen. Dianne Feinstein said at a Senate hearing: "It is unacceptable to have 90 percent of the guns that are picked up in Mexico and used to shoot judges, police officers and mayors ... come from the United States."

-- William Hoover, assistant director for field operations at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, testified in the House of Representatives that "there is more than enough evidence to indicate that over 90 percent of the firearms that have either been recovered in, or interdicted in transport to Mexico, originated from various sources within the United States."

There's just one problem with the 90 percent "statistic" and it's a big one:

It's just not true.

In fact, it's not even close. The fact is, only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S.

What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

"Not every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market," Matt Allen, special agent of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), told FOX News.

A Look at the Numbers

In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.

But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.

In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.

So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

'These Don't Come From El Paso'

Ed Head, a firearms instructor in Arizona who spent 24 years with the U.S. Border Patrol, recently displayed an array of weapons considered "assault rifles" that are similar to those recovered in Mexico, but are unavailable for sale in the U.S.

"These kinds of guns -- the auto versions of these guns -- they are not coming from El Paso," he said. "They are coming from other sources. They are brought in from Guatemala. They are brought in from places like China. They are being diverted from the military. But you don't get these guns from the U.S."

Some guns, he said, "are legitimately shipped to the government of Mexico, by Colt, for example, in the United States. They are approved by the U.S. government for use by the Mexican military service. The guns end up in Mexico that way -- the fully auto versions -- they are not smuggled in across the river."

Many of the fully automatic weapons that have been seized in Mexico cannot be found in the U.S., but they are not uncommon in the Third World.

The Mexican government said it has seized 2,239 grenades in the last two years -- but those grenades and the rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) are unavailable in U.S. gun shops. The ones used in an attack on the U.S. Consulate in Monterrey in October and a TV station in January were made in South Korea. Almost 70 similar grenades were seized in February in the bottom of a truck entering Mexico from Guatemala.

"Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semi-automatic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California," according to a report in the Los Angeles Times.

Boatloads of Weapons

So why would the Mexican drug cartels, which last year grossed between $17 billion and $38 billion, bother buying single-shot rifles, and force thousands of unknown "straw" buyers in the U.S. through a government background check, when they can buy boatloads of fully automatic M-16s and assault rifles from China, Israel or South Africa?

Alberto Islas, a security consultant who advises the Mexican government, says the drug cartels are using the Guatemalan border to move black market weapons. Some are left over from the Central American wars the United States helped fight; others, like the grenades and launchers, are South Korean, Israeli and Spanish. Some were legally supplied to the Mexican government; others were sold by corrupt military officers or officials.

The exaggeration of United States "responsibility" for the lawlessness in Mexico extends even beyond the "90-percent" falsehood -- and some Second Amendment activists believe it's designed to promote more restrictive gun-control laws in the U.S.

In a remarkable claim, Auturo Sarukhan, the Mexican ambassador to the U.S., said Mexico seizes 2,000 guns a day from the United States -- 730,000 a year. That's a far cry from the official statistic from the Mexican attorney general's office, which says Mexico seized 29,000 weapons in all of 2007 and 2008.

Chris Cox, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, blames the media and anti-gun politicians in the U.S. for misrepresenting where Mexican weapons come from.

"Reporter after politician after news anchor just disregards the truth on this," Cox said. "The numbers are intentionally used to weaken the Second Amendment."

"The predominant source of guns in Mexico is Central and South America. You also have Russian, Chinese and Israeli guns. It's estimated that over 100,000 soldiers deserted the army to work for the drug cartels, and that ignores all the police. How many of them took their weapons with them?"

But Tom Diaz, senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center, called the "90 percent" issue a red herring and said that it should not detract from the effort to stop gun trafficking into Mexico.

"Let's do what we can with what we know," he said. "We know that one hell of a lot of firearms come from the United States because our gun market is wide open."
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Perd Hapley

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2009, 01:58:58 PM »
Quote
"We know that one hell of a lot of firearms come from the United States because our gun market is wide open."

Something needs to be done about this.  They could give those guns to me, for example.  :angel:
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makattak

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2009, 02:03:00 PM »
Quote
But Tom Diaz, senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center, called the "90 percent" issue a red herring and said that it should not detract from the effort to stop gun trafficking into Mexico.

"Let's do what we can with what we know," he said. "We know that one hell of a lot of firearms come from the United States because our gun market is wide open."

Ah yes.

The standard liberal response:

"Yes, ok, our statistics have been proven to be falsified.

However, we only made them up because we know that they represent what is really happening even if we can't prove it.

So, let's ignore the statistics completely and fix what we know is the problem.

And no, we don't need proof, everyone knows it's the problem."
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Standing Wolf

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2009, 03:35:28 PM »
Quote
...I will add that for me this story is really not about firearms per se, it is about LYING.

If it's leftist extremism, it's always based on lies.
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MechAg94

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Scout26

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2009, 11:50:01 AM »
Ah yes.

The standard liberal response:

"Yes, ok, our statistics have been proven to be falsified.

However, we only made them up because we know that they represent what is really happening even if we can't prove it.

So, let's ignore the statistics completely and fix what we know is the problem.

And no, we don't need proof, everyone knows it's the problem."

Yep, the standard liberal response is:

"Yes, we know that we've got the wrong solution, but it just needs more money/less freedom for it to work."
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ShortTimer

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 05:43:51 AM »
And no, we don't need proof, everyone knows it's the problem."

Don't forget "and the debate is over/there's consensus".

geronimotwo

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2009, 04:20:10 PM »
-- William Hoover, assistant director for field operations at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, testified in the House of Representatives that "there is more than enough evidence to indicate that over 90 percent of the firearms that have either been recovered in, or interdicted in transport to Mexico, originated from various sources within the United States."

well, of course the ones we have prohibited from transport to mexico come from the USA.  they are still in the USA.

so, is this where the 90% figure is coming from? that we stop 9 times the amount from going there than are recovered from crimes committed in mexico ?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 06:28:54 PM by geronimotwo »
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thebaldguy

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2009, 07:29:54 PM »
I think even 17% is a bit much. Why aren't these being traced back to the US purchaser in huge volumes?

If I was a drug lord in Mexico, I think the US would be the LAST place I'd look to for importing weapons. I'm guessing there are other places in the region where it would be less hassle.

MechAg94

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2009, 09:02:53 PM »
It isn't necessarily drug lords buying them in bulk, it may just be one small time guy buying a few.  Once they are on the black market, they move around.  I'd bet the major players are buying from international gun runner types, not piecemeal semi-auto stuff from the US. 

My understanding is the only guns they are asking the ATF to trace are those whose markings say "I was imported into the US".  I agree with you about being surprised more initial purchasers aren't being questioned about them; but maybe they are. 
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ShortTimer

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2009, 05:28:39 AM »
Quote
"there is more than enough evidence to indicate that over 90 percent of the firearms that have either been recovered in, or interdicted in transport to Mexico, originated from various sources within the United States."
Keep in mind that's a percentage, not a real number.

A clip of Greta I saw had some ATF agent on saying the same thing.  He went on to say that they had 4 agents in Texas to deal with the border situation from McAllen to El Paso, and another tiny group of other agents through the rest of the border.

Now if that entire task force of 4 people has only recovered 20 guns and 18 were from the US, there's your 90% statistic.  Mind you, the ATF isn't going to go into Juarez or Tijuana to find guns, they're just getting what crosses... which isn't that much.

Plus, like geronimotwo said, if they're only catching what's going south, which is kept in the US - they're only going to find US-made guns.  How'd the other 10% get into the US?

Gewehr98

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2009, 12:03:06 AM »
Per CNN tonight, Obama told the Mexican president that he's still going after "assault weapons".

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/16/obama.latin.america/index.html
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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2009, 08:56:51 AM »
Just when you think Obama cannot get any dumber......

The real question I think that is on our minds now....





Did he, or the teleprompter give that speech?

dogmush

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2009, 09:47:06 AM »
Per CNN tonight, Obama told the Mexican president that he's still going after "assault weapons".

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/16/obama.latin.america/index.html

And per Fox on the very same day, he's not.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/16/obama-takes-drug-cartels-surging-violence-mexico/

Now I'm confused.  Can we get a copy of the speech to see what he really said?  Tha vast media conspericy really needs to get their stories straight before publishing.

longeyes

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2009, 01:01:21 PM »
Is there a country he is not going to apologize to?   Who knew we lived in The Great Satan-Evil Empire?

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makattak

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2009, 01:07:21 PM »
Is there a country he is not going to apologize to?   Who knew we lived in The Great Satan-Evil Empire?



Iceland.

Although he may apologize for their current economic troubles and blame it on "lax regulations in the United States."

So, if iceland doesn't work... umm...

Poland. He won't apologize for suggesting he would pull missile defense out of there.

He's perfectly willing to apologize for EVERYTHING so long as it's not an apology for something he has done.
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Angel Eyes

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2009, 03:39:47 PM »
And per Fox on the very same day, he's not.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/16/obama-takes-drug-cartels-surging-violence-mexico/

Now I'm confused.  Can we get a copy of the speech to see what he really said?  Tha vast media conspericy really needs to get their stories straight before publishing.

If the Mexican government asks, he is.

If the NRA and/or the Blue Dog Democrats ask, he isn't.

Seems simple enough to me.   =|

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longeyes

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2009, 06:20:22 PM »
Memo to Bush and Obama: First you de facto open the border, then you wonder why there is trafficking in arms--regardless of how much or how little--between the U.S. and Mexico (where exactly are these American arms coming from anyhow, from whom?), and you try to use that as a pretext for neutering the Second Amendment.  Seems to me the "drug cartel" problem has closely matched the rise in "migration" from Down South over the last 20 years.  (This is not to say there are not others complicit, because there are.)
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HankB

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Re: where the Mexican guns REALLY come from
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2009, 10:42:11 PM »
Is there a country he is not going to apologize to?   Who knew we lived in The Great Satan-Evil Empire?
Burma and Zimbabwe haven't been mentioned yet, AFAIK.

Of course, maybe his sovereign, the King of Saudi Arabia, will send him new instructions soon . . .
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