Author Topic: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC  (Read 7051 times)

TechMan

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Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« on: December 08, 2020, 12:20:09 PM »
Wow, didn't see that one coming.

Quote from: From Below Link
The State of Texas filed a lawsuit directly with the U.S. Supreme Court shortly before midnight on Monday challenging the election procedures in Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin on the grounds that they violate the Constitution.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/12/07/texas-sues-georgia-michigan-pennsylvania-and-wisconsin-at-supreme-court-election-rules/
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WLJ

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2020, 12:38:16 PM »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

WLJ

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2020, 12:39:01 PM »
*
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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dogmush

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2020, 12:57:01 PM »
Interesting.

I have no idea if it will work, but interesting.

RocketMan

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2020, 01:36:45 PM »
Interesting.

I have no idea if it will work, but interesting.

Agreed.  Surprise move on the part of Texas.
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DittoHead

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2020, 01:37:04 PM »
I think calling this a Hail Mary would be a bit of an understatement.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

dogmush

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2020, 01:42:53 PM »
I think calling this a Hail Mary would be a bit of an understatement.

Why?  Care to add some insight as to why you think this is a long shot?  As the court of first impression, I think SCOTUS has to, at least, here the case.

RocketMan

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2020, 02:33:47 PM »
Why?  Care to add some insight as to why you think this is a long shot?  As the court of first impression, I think SCOTUS has to, at least, here the case.

I'll give it a shot.  And my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.
The SCOTUS made abundantly clear after the Bush v. Gore hanging chad debacle that they would be loath to ever get involved in such a case again.  My bet is that they punt on whatever cases make it to the court.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Nick1911

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2020, 02:36:54 PM »
Aren't the states more or less free to conduct elections however they decide? (including for federal positions).

DittoHead

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2020, 02:37:18 PM »
Well for starters, residents of the states being sued have had a hard enough time getting anywhere with similar lawsuits due to basic issues of standing & timeliness (laches). The issues in this lawsuit have already been raised in lawsuits within those states (where they belong) and have been shot down already. Throw in the fact that this is one state trying to force other states to toss the results of their elections and I have hard time seeing this go very far. That is a very extreme remedy and it has been labeled as such repeatedly in the lawsuits that have already failed.

Put simply they are asking for too much, too late, and likely don't even have the standing to ask for it in the first place.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

Jim147

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2020, 02:55:19 PM »
I believe it takes five yes votes from the supremes to hear the case. Want to guess who will be the deciding vote?
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dogmush

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2020, 03:02:06 PM »
Aren't the states more or less free to conduct elections however they decide? (including for federal positions).

Sure, as we have discussed here before.

From a skim of TX's court documents, they seem to be arguing that the COTUS says that state legislatures can set the rules on how an election is run in that state, pretty much how they want.  TX is claiming that the defendant state's Executive and Judicial branches changed the rules without legislative action, thereby not providing the election that had been decided on by the party empowered to decide such things.  As such, the elections themselves don't conform to the COTUS (i.e. an election run as the state legislature decided to run it).

TX isn't, in fact, asking for the elections to be thrown out.  They are requesting that the SCOTUS kick the decision of who the state's electors will be back to the State Legislature of the various defendant states, to decide how they wish.  That way the picking of the states electors will have been done by the state legislature, as demanded by the electors clause of the COTUS.

For example: the PA legislature laid specific rules about how mail in ballots were supposed to be marked, counted, and when they were valid.  The PA courts changed those rules, and they ran the election on the changed rules.  So the election in PA was not run in accordance with the State Legislature's wishes.  The PA Supreme Court could have said "This law is unconstitutional [their enumerated power], Legislature come up with constitutional laws before the election." but TX is asserting that the PA Supreme Court (and other non-legislative people and bodies in the other states) don't have the authority under the COTUS to just make new elections rules.

This seems to be a new argument, distinct from the previous cases I've read about that have been thrown out.  Since we are a union of States, another State would seem to have a different standing as far as being wronged by an extra-constitutional election.  TX actually cites Bush v. Gore as pointing out that a departure from the legislatively established election rules would present a federal constitutional question.

As far as belonging in state court Article III, Section 2 of the US Constitution states:
Quote
In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction.

(bolding mine)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 03:21:08 PM by dogmush »

DittoHead

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2020, 03:23:55 PM »
TX isn't, in fact, asking for the elections to be thrown out.  They are requesting that the SCOTUS kick the decision of who the state's electors will be back to the State Legislature of the various defendant states, to decide how they wish.
This seems like a distinction without a difference.

Quote
PRAYER FOR RELIEF
WHEREFORE, Plaintiff States respectfully request that this Court issue the following relief:
 
Declare that Defendant States Pennsylvania, Georgia, Michigan, and Wisconsin administered the 2020 presidential election in violation of the Electors Clause and the Fourteenth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
 
Declare that any electoral college votes cast by such presidential electors appointed in Defendant States Pennsylvania, Georgia, Michigan, and Wisconsin are in violation of the Electors Clause and the Fourteenth Amendment of the U.S.Constitution and cannot be counted.

Enjoin Defendant States use of the 2020 election results for the Office of President to appoint presidential electors to the Electoral College.
How is that not tossing out the election results?

In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2020, 03:51:13 PM »
I believe it takes five yes votes from the supremes to hear the case. Want to guess who will be the deciding vote?

I don't think that applies here. This isn't an appeal from a decision by a lower court. This is a lawsuit between two (or more) states. The Supreme Court is the "court of first impression," meaning the first (and last) stop. I don't think they can decline to hear it.

U.S. Constitution:

Quote
Article 3 - The Judicial Branch
Section 2 - Trial by Jury, Original Jurisdiction, Jury Trials


In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
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dogmush

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2020, 03:51:55 PM »
First, I am not a lawyer, am not heavily invested in this, and am merely discussing what I see as differences from a bystander viewpoint.  This is, after all, a discussion board.

That disclaimer out of the way; Distinctions without a difference is what lawyers and courts thrive on.  To my mind "throwing out the election results" would be not allowing those states to sit electors and just going with a majority of whatever electors are left seated and/or dictating that the states in question WILL sit a certain set of electors (presumably from a party other than what the election picked)

TX is asking that the legislatures pick the electors as they see fit, without the interference of the judicial and/or executive branches of the state government.  Presumably the legislatures could still pick Biden electors if they wanted to, it should just be their choice, alone.

Or at least that's my understanding of TX's argument.  We'll see what happens.  I still think it's a different argument than I have seen presented before, I confess though, I got election fatigue about Nov 21st and stopped paying attention to every argument being thrown against the wall.

grampster

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2020, 03:54:42 PM »
I just typed something really funny.  I had to delete it as I think it would be a mortal sin.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2020, 04:21:10 PM »
I just typed something really funny.  I had to delete it as I think it would be a mortal sin.

Pax vobiscum.
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HeroHog

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2020, 03:00:03 AM »
Was disCUSSING the "election" goings on with a neighbor over dinner tonight talking about this, martial law, secession, etc., and I said "That, my friend, is the sound of thousands upon thousands of weapons being loaded and cocked..."
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MechAg94

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2020, 10:53:57 AM »
Was disCUSSING the "election" goings on with a neighbor over dinner tonight talking about this, martial law, secession, etc., and I said "That, my friend, is the sound of thousands upon thousands of weapons being loaded and cocked..."
That is part of my concern.  If you take away all legal pathways for the honest man, that leaves only one option left.  It won't be tomorrow or next year, but the pressure will start or continue to build. 

If the election as counted stands, I predict we will see record turnout in a lot more counties in the next couple of Presidential elections. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2020, 11:31:56 AM »
Quote
It won't be tomorrow or next year, but the pressure will start or continue to build.

With the way things are headed I wouldn't entirely rule out next year.
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MechAg94

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2020, 11:38:13 AM »
With the way things are headed I wouldn't entirely rule out next year.
Maybe localized.  I don't think most people have any idea what they would do if something started. 
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Boomhauer

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2020, 11:46:51 AM »
That is part of my concern.  If you take away all legal pathways for the honest man, that leaves only one option left.  It won't be tomorrow or next year, but the pressure will start or continue to build. 

If the election as counted stands, I predict we will see record turnout in a lot more counties in the next couple of Presidential elections. 

It’s not only the election but the Corona overreaching by local and state governments has also pissed the hell out of people.
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DittoHead

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2020, 03:46:28 PM »
This is a lawsuit between two (or more) states. The Supreme Court is the "court of first impression," meaning the first (and last) stop. I don't think they can decline to hear it.

They do need to do something to address it but they certainly don't need to give it a full hearing.

because this case is a lawsuit filed by one state against others, it falls within the Court's "original jurisdiction"—the narrow set of cases that can be filed directly in the Supreme Court, without first being considered by lower courts. Therefore, the justices may not be able to reject it in the same way as they just refused to hear a GOP lawsuit seeking to overturn the result in Pennsylvania.

At the same time, however, there is precedent for the Court dispensing with state vs. state original jurisdiction lawsuits without a full hearing or opinion. In 2016, that's exactly what the Court did with a lawsuit filed by Nebraska and Oklahoma seeking to force neighboring Colorado to rescind its legislation legalizing marijuana under state law. The justices disposed of the Nebraska-Oklahoma lawsuit in a one-sentence order. Here it is in all its glory:

Quote
The motion for leave to file a bill of complaint is denied.

Nothing prevents the Supreme Court from doing the same thing with the Texas case.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

Angel Eyes

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2020, 04:08:16 PM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/09/states-tell-supreme-court-they-support-texas-bid-to-reverse-biden-win.html

Quote
    Seventeen states on Wednesday told the Supreme Court that they support an effort by Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton to sue to effectively reverse President-elect Joe Biden’s projected win in the Electoral College.

    The filing came a day after Paxton asked the Supreme Court for permission to sue Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin over their election results, which Biden won in all instances.

    President Donald Trump defeated Biden in the popular vote of the states supporting Paxton’s bid.
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MechAg94

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Re: Texas Sues GA, MI, PA and WI in USSC
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2020, 05:17:36 PM »
I had heard a few states would officially support the lawsuit.  17 is quite a bit.  Might not matter, but it might grab more attention.  I guess the impression the judicial branch is trying hard to ignore the whole thing and hope it goes away.  


The federal courts stick their nose in just about every part of our lives and our Govt these days.  I don't know why elections would be special. 
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