Muslims, cabs, alcohol, and now, checkout clerks refusing to handle pork!

[Manedwolf]

there were quite a few, fistful. Since Sikhs also wear a form of turban, and have facial hair, some assume they're muslim. Hell, I have Sikh friends in Thailand that I first thought were muslim, so I can see the confusion. Of course, I wasn't looking to shoot anybody over their religion...

I only know of one, Balbir Singh Sodhi, who was killed outside his gas station shortly after Sep 11 by a lowlife who is now sitting on death row for the crime.

I don't know of any "quite a few". Can you provide citations on that?

[Perd Hapley]

there were quite a few, fistful.

I'd actually like to know about Muslims or pseudo-Muslims in America being attacked as retribution for terrorism.  I've only heard hear-say of this so far.  Does anyone know where I could get real info on that?   

Guess I could look on the ADL website and bring some salt. 

[Strings]

don't have a citation: going on hearsay (sorry guys). ONLY reason I got into this was the comment >How many more Sikh gas station owners will have to be shot after the next Sept.11th before we decide that the hatemongering and stereotyping is enough?
1326? Plus or minus a 100 or so...<

I have VERY dear friends who are Sikh, so this kinda sparked me...

[Car Knocker]

A Google search doesn't seem to support the assertion that a lot of Sikhs have been shot in the US post-9/11.

[onions!]

Admittedly I didn't look very long but I expect that there are plenty of these sad nuggets to be found.
http://www.unitedsikhs.org/rtt/sikhmanattackedqueens.htm

[HankB]

I think it's safer to visibly be a Sikh or Moslem in the USA, Canada, or any Western nation than it is to visibly be Jewish or Christian in virtually ANY Islamic nation in the Middle East.

Anti-Moslem violence directed against Sikhs is both tragic and ironic, as I've read that the Sikhs and Moslems don't get along all that well . . .

[De Selby]

Welcome to a world where stereotyping and hatemongering are the rule of the day.  It doesn't matter what any individual believes in this world; if they fit the "mould" of what some guy who hates Muslims thinks Muslims look like, they are a target. 

There was also another incident in Freemont recently...an Afghani mom, wearing her hijab, was shot dead while walking to pick up her children from school.

If you want to compare our country to Iraq or Saudi Arabia to make yourself feel better, be my guest, but I don't feel any better about racist attacks on innocent people because of it.

[Werewolf]

Ummm... Werewolf? The Sikhs had nothing to do with ANY of the terrorist actions against us: they just look kinda muslim...

Well heck! I just thought he was being sarcastic so I pulled my favorite number out of my hat and was being sarcastic right back.

[Car Knocker]

There was also another incident in Freemont recently...an Afghani mom, wearing her hijab, was shot dead while walking to pick up her children from school.

What was the motive behind this shooting?

[Perd Hapley]

Welcome to a world where stereotyping and hatemongering are the rule of the day.  It doesn't matter what any individual believes in this world; if they fit the "mould" of what some guy who hates Muslims thinks Muslims look like, they are a target. 

There was also another incident in Freemont recently...an Afghani mom, wearing her hijab, was shot dead while walking to pick up her children from school.

SS, you're exaggerating.  First, I'm sure we would all be interested in knowing about these hatecrimes; just give us some documentation.  Not that I don't sympathize with you.  Just about every week I hear another story about some Christian kid who's persecuted by teachers for reading the Bible, or something like that.  Unfortunately, I don't have any books or websites to cite for this. 

Secondly, hatemongering is by no means the rule of the day.  Everybody stereotypes others to some extent, and you can always find plenty of hatred on the internet if you look for it.  But I highly doubt that Muslims (or pseudo-Muslims) in America need to fear being shot to death by some overzealous patriot.  At least not any more than I need to fear a Muslim hiding in the trunk of a car with an AR.  Or some crazed Muslim plowing into me with an SUV on a university campus.  Or getting shot by a Muslim while I work the airline counter at LAX.  All these things have happened in the U.S., but they are by no means "the rule of the day." 

[De Selby]

fistful,

I understand your wanting to see documentation completely, and yeah, it does sound like those "Christian kid persecuted" stories sometimes.  I don't like them either, and I don't use those stories that I hear even though incidents of that kind would inflate the number of incidents I could claim exponentially. 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,98721,00.html

MESA, Ariz.    A man was convicted of murder Tuesday in the slaying of a turbaned, bearded Sikh (search) who prosecutors said was gunned down four days after the Sept. 11 attacks because he was mistaken for an Arab.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/21/BAGMTLTGM51.DTL

Local Muslim leaders on Friday denounced as a likely hate crime the brazen daylight shooting death in Fremont of a mother of six, and police said that they had arrested a parolee described as a "person of interest" in connection with the slaying.

fistful, I agree with you that America isn't that bad...right now.  My problem is with people who are screaming their dreams that it become that bad, ie, that we start profiling, marking, and then interning/expelling/nuking all Muslims.  It is most certainly more common than not to find people believing that Muslims are a special danger, and some recent polls have shown about 40 percent of the population (IIRC, will look it up) supporting special arm-bands or other markers to make Muslims identifiable in public. 

The level of hysteria is certainly dangerous because of what it could become if, God forbid, there is another attack, or if the large numbers of "Let's nuke Mecca!" types manage to gain traction by some other method.  That's why I get worked up about it, not because I think most Americans right now are loonies.

[Ron]

The level of hysteria is certainly dangerous because of what it could become if, God forbid, there is another attack, or if the large numbers of "Let's nuke Mecca!" types manage to gain traction by some other method.  That's why I get worked up about it, not because I think most Americans right now are loonies.

Christians and Jews are very aware of persecution of their followers in other nations.

I don't believe for a second that a round up all the Muslims type of a program would ever happen in the US.

Why would folks who are aware of the horrors of persecution promote that very thing?

No offense SS but I find the stories of Muslim persecution in the US to be very far and few in between. Even one of your examples is an incident that occurred immediately after 9/11.

[De Selby]

Ron,

Maybe you don't believe it will happen, but there are certainly a large number of people calling for it.  A larger number of people buy into theories about how all Muslims are this or that kind of violent lunatic religious fanatic.  We did round up all people of a certain race about 60 years ago, and we ended institutional racism against Jews and blacks less than 35 years ago.

Your question about why folks aware of the horros would promote that very thing is sensible, but unfortunately people aren't always sensible.  Look at this board...you will rant after rant about the horrors of how Muslims treat people in "their countries", followed by "let's do whatever it takes! Let's nuke Mecca! Let's give them all a choice-convert or die here!" all in the name of "preserving our country!".

The Muslim mother was shot like....five years after 9/11. 

My concern is with the level of hysteria that people are pushing over Islam and Muslims.  I'm sorry, but I refuse to accept that something isn't wrong when people question my patriotism for arguing that it's wrong to Nuke Mecca in response to terrorism.

[Perd Hapley]

SS,

Your concerns about interring Muslims as we did with Japanese, or even making them wear a yellow crescent, just aren't realistic.  America simply will not enact any such policies in the near future.  And by the near future, I mean any time within the next few decades.  If you don't understand how sensitive most politicians are to offending non-Christians, non-whites, women and homosexuals, you have not been paying attention at all. 

there are certainly a large number of people calling for it.  A larger number of people buy into theories about how all Muslims are this or that kind of violent lunatic religious fanatic.

Certainly a large number?  I'm calling BS on those claims.  Back them up. 

[De Selby]

fistful,

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Dec04/Muslim.Poll.bpf.html

About 27 percent of respondents said that all Muslim Americans should be required to register their location with the federal government, and 26 percent said they think that mosques should be closely monitored by U.S. law enforcement agencies. Twenty-nine percent agreed that undercover law enforcement agents should infiltrate Muslim civic and volunteer organizations, in order to keep tabs on their activities and fund raising. About 22 percent said the federal government should profile citizens as potential threats based on the fact that they are Muslim or have Middle Eastern heritage. In all, about 44 percent said they believe that some curtailment of civil liberties is necessary for Muslim Americans.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1969168,00.html.

When it comes to popular prejudice and state repression, the Muslim experience in the US does not seem to have differed much from the rest of the western world since September 11. Klein was pushing at an open door. A Gallup poll this summer showed that 39% of Americans supported requiring Muslims in the US, including American citizens, to carry special identification. In 2005 the Council on American Islamic Relations (Cair) recorded a 30% increase in the number of complaints received about Islamophobic treatment.

[Perd Hapley]

CAIR and Cornell.  Certainly I can trust those two organizations.   

I'm not buying it. 

[De Selby]

fistful,

Read the articles.  It's not CAIR and Cornell; it's a Gallup poll and a Cornell research group poll.

Here's a link to the gallup one (protected, no access for me from here):

http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?ci=24073

[Perd Hapley]

That's nice, shootinstudent, but producing one poll doesn't go very far to substantiating something like that.  Lies, damned lies and statistics, you know. 

[De Selby]

fistful,

Well, it's two polls...but yeah, if you don't believe statistics, you can't really believe any claims about public opinion.  That's the only way it's measured, so at the very least I can say that according to the best information available, a large number of people support discrimination against Muslims.

[Perd Hapley]

Again, polls are frequently skewed and even deliberately manipulated.  Don't let them fool you. 

[Matthew Carberry]

As of March 1, no evidence to support the tragic killing of Alia Ansari being a hate crime.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/03/01/BAGA8ODM2E57.DTL

Immediately after the slaying, Ansari's relatives said they believed the killing was a hate crime, because the only thing that would distinguish her to a stranger was her head scarf, or hijab, worn by some devout Muslim women.

Carmine (the prosecutor) said today, however, that there was no evidence to suggest that Ansari's killing was a hate crime. The prosecutor said it appeared that Urango and Ansari had not known each other.

"The investigation is ongoing, and we're really not prepared to talk about motive," Carmine said. "At this time, it's not charged as a hate crime and there's no evidence that prosecutors have that qualifies it as a hate crime."

Fremont police have said Urango was on parole for felony hit-and-run. Authorities did not say what he allegedly did to violate that parole.

Urango has convictions dating back to 2000 in Alameda, Santa Clara and Stanislaus counties for hit-and-run, being a felon in possession of a gun, evading police, auto theft, drug possession and grand theft, court records show. He has been in and out of state prison since 2002, and was most recently paroled Sept. 9, according to the state Department of Corrections.

Unfortunately random murder is not uncommon in California, especially by convicted felons.

[De Selby]

Thanks for the update carebear.  It is certainly unfortunate, and yeah, it looks like there is no explanation for this crime besides "thug with urge to shoot" now. 

[Matthew Carberry]

Thanks for the update carebear.  It is certainly unfortunate, and yeah, it looks like there is no explanation for this crime besides "thug with urge to shoot" now. 

shootin,

Just so you know, I didn't post that as a "gotcha".  Like you, I wanted some follow up.

How horrible it is that there's even a hint of relief that it was just a "normal" murder rather than a sign of increased hate-based murders. 

[wmenorr67]

Statistics lie.  The questions used in polling are set up to gather specific numbers based on what they want the outcome of the poll to be.

As for the murder, does it matter if it is a hate crime or not?

[Matthew Carberry]

Motive always matters.

In general, motive can be the determining factor in what kind of a homicide a killing is and thus what the legal repercussions are.