The evils of Ethanol

[Nick1911]

I'm curious why some here think it's a good idea to subsidize this particular idea when it isn't economically viable on it's own?

We seem to have some consensus that government meddling invariably leads us away from optimized solutions for the conditions. Why is this different?

[Balog]

No, I support that your assertions are ignorant, asinine, and reek of liberalistic class-warfare snobbery, but you can keep digging if you like.

Brad

Opposing government subsidies makes me a liberal? What a strange world you live in.

[charby]

I'm curious why some here think it's a good idea to subsidize this particular idea when it isn't economically viable on it's own?

We seem to have some consensus that government meddling invariably leads us away from optimized solutions for the conditions. Why is this different?

Are you talking about food or fuel ethanol?

[Balog]

So what other industries do ya'll think the government should be subsidizing? Where else are we just aching for central control lest we be transformed into a third world nation? Why is "privatize the profit socialize the loss" ok for farmers but not other industries?

[tokugawa]

Now the Gov. wants to boost the ethanol content of gas to 15%.  Wonder why.....

[Nick1911]

Are you talking about food or fuel ethanol?

Fuel ethanol.

[charby]

Fuel ethanol.

I don't think anyone mentioned anything about supporting subsidizing the ethanol industry.

[Brad Johnson]

Opposing government subsidies makes me a liberal? What a strange world you live in.

No, blanket-statementing farmers and farming as corporate whores and then trying to legitimize it with political double-speak does.

Balog, buddy, you really need to spend a couple days in a farmer's boots before you get your foot any further in your mouth.

Brad

[Nick1911]

I don't think anyone mentioned anything about supporting subsidizing the ethanol industry.

Well, lets try the same argument for farming subsidies in general. 

[Balog]

No, blanket-statementing farmers and farming as corporate whores and then trying to legitimize it with political double-speak does.

Balog, buddy, you really need to spend a couple days in a farmer's boots before you get your foot any further in your mouth.

Brad

They receive huge amounts of .gov money in subsidies etc. I stand by my statement. Perhaps you'd care to venture beyond pathetic attempts at insulting me into addressing the facts of the matter? Or will you be sticking with the "Hurr durr farmers yur just a librul who needs to get outta the city" bullshit?

[drewtam]

Millcreek, "close" is a moving target.
The pressure to keep going with these alternative fuels is very much dependent on how much pain we feel at the pump.
It's just like Detroit.  When the Arab Oil Embargo of '74 hit, Detroit responded by making more fuel-efficient vehicles.
Once that crisis was over, the land yachts and Texas Cadillacs started coming off the assembly lines en masse again.
It's cyclical, and the juggernaut that's Detroit is slow to swing the rudder over hard when it happens.  And they bristle when CAFE rules start pinching them.
You can call it market-driven, too.  Cheap gas?  Let's buy a Hummer H2!   $4.00/gallon?  Time to buy a Toyota Yaris!
Same goes for the alternative fuels folks.  We have a company here called Virent Technologies (http://www.virent.com) who are doing great things with biomass fuel conversions - I'd love to go work for them!
When the price of crude was high not too long ago, they were getting Federal grants, as well as big chunks of money from Honda, etc.
Now, you barely hear a peep out of them. 

I don't think that is accurate. The EPA mandates a certain amount of ethanol fuel regardless of prices, while Congress also subsidizes the production side. Its one of the few funded/subsidized mandates. And its not a percentage mandate, its a gross production mandate to the tune of 18billion gallons for 2014.

statutory requirement of 18.15 billion gallons

http://www.nationaljournal.com/daily/ethanol-producers-nervously-await-epa-ruling-on-2014-target-20131111

Now the Gov. wants to boost the ethanol content of gas to 15%.  Wonder why.....

This is why the EPA is eyeing a bump of allowed ethanol to 15%. Fuel consumption is not increasing as fast as the mandate targets are per year. So the only way to hit the mandate is to increase the percentage of the cut.

[Brad Johnson]

"Hurr durr farmers yur just a librul who needs to get outta the city" bullshit?

Sounds like a plan.  When can I tell Dad to expect you?  He could use the help and you could certainly benefit from the experience.

Brad

[charby]

Well, lets try the same argument for farming subsidies in general. 

My point of view some subsidies are necessary evil for national security (food and defense) while others are there because of some really good lobbying and probably could go away with much pain and mashing of the teeth, but in the end aren't really needed.

[Balog]

Sounds like a plan.  When can I tell Dad to expect you?  He could use the help and you could certainly benefit from the experience.

Brad

So you basically have no logical defense of farm subsidies, aside from anyone who is opposed to them must be ignorant because they're opposed to them and only ignorant people are opposed to them? Would you care to actually make a case? Do you have any argument at all, aside from insulting those who disagree?

[charby]

Sounds like a plan.  When can I tell Dad to expect you?  He could use the help and you could certainly benefit from the experience.

Brad

I'm thinking about the time calves are needed to weaned from the mothers. :)

[Brad Johnson]

I'm thinking about the time calves are needed to weaned from the mothers. :)

Nah, that's in Spring.  Right now we're being laying around and being lazy corporate whores, only running 24/7 trying to get wheat in the ground before it freezes.

Balog, still waiting for when I can tell Dad to expect you...

Brad

[Ron]

Nah, that's in Spring.  Right now we're being lazy and only running 24/7 trying to get wheat in the ground before it freezes.

Brad

Probably planting that GMO *expletive deleted* that's poisoning America just to make a profit...

<ducks for cover while running away snickering>  

[Scout26]

Queue scout26's monthly ethanol rant.  

Has it been a month already?   Remember to mark your calendar.  


(It also knocks 10% off your MPG, requiring you to buy more fuel at a higher price.)  

And yes, processing it through tasty critters or charred oak barrels is a much better use for it.


I'd have no problem with it, if 1) The .gov didn't subsidize it; and 2) The .gov didn't mandate its use in gasoline.

[Balog]

So that would be a no in terms of having a logical argument then? And I never said lazy, just that they get more cash from the Feds than the welfare queens so despised on this board.

[Brad Johnson]

Probably planting that GMO *expletive deleted* that's poisoning America just to make a profit...

<ducks for cover while running away snickering>  

Sshhhhh dammit... don't give away the secret!

Brad

[Balog]

To summarize the sides of the debate thus far.

"The Federal government giving tens of billions to a profitable industry is wasteful and should be stopped."

"You're just a libtard PUSSY who needs to get his hands dirty LOL!"

[Brad Johnson]

So that would be a no in terms of having a logical argument then? And I never said lazy, just that they get more cash from the Feds than the welfare queens so despised on this board.

A prerequisite of a logical defense is the presentation of a logical argument.  Call me naïve, but I'm pretty sure your original statement, "The biggest corporate whores / welfare queens in america are the big farmers.", lacks the necessary content, context, and objectivity to merit that consideration.

"You're just a libtard PUSSY who needs to get his hands dirty LOL!"

Hey, he gets it!

Brad

[mtnbkr]

And with that we close the thread.  Good job guys.

[Gewehr98]

I don't think anybody here's arguing that the Government should mandate and subsidize ethanol for fuel.

I do, however, believe that we need to get out from under Big Oil's thumb.  And Big Oil ain't gonna subsidize alternative fuels.