Author Topic: Ahh... more unintended consequences... (Read 8975 times)

makattak · « **on:** October 22, 2009, 01:26:00 PM »

Yep... spanking is being utilized less and less and instead we get:

For Some Parents, Shouting Is the New Spanking

Personally, a parent flipping out and screaming at a child is far worse than spanking a child.

Spanking can be done while in control of yourself. Screaming?... not so much.

Also, I note the continued demise of proper english in the article:

Quote

“This is so the issue right now. As parents understand that it’s not socially acceptable to spank children, they are at a loss for what they can do. They resort to reminding, nagging, timeout, counting 1-2-3 and quickly realize that those strategies don’t work to change behavior. In the absence of tools that really work, they feel frustrated and angry and raise their voice. They feel guilty afterward, and the whole cycle begins again.”

Sooo... you're being quoted by the New York Times and you begin your statement with: This is SOOOOO the issue right now.

/facepalm

Standing Wolf · « **Reply #1 on:** October 22, 2009, 01:42:44 PM »

Quote

This is so the issue right now.

Lends new meaning to the word "trite."

Fjolnirsson · « **Reply #2 on:** October 22, 2009, 01:47:21 PM »

Huh. The article said spanking is a problem....No problem here. I smack my kid when she needs it. She rarely needs it. Parents who don't spank, in my experience, are a lot like the U.N. Largely useless.

There may be some here who don't believe in spanking. Great, they shouldn't , then. Everyone I have ever met who doesn't spank has had a holy terror of a child whom everyone despises. YMMV.

makattak · « **Reply #3 on:** October 22, 2009, 01:56:23 PM »

Quote from: Fjolnirsson on October 22, 2009, 01:47:21 PM

Huh. The article said spanking is a problem....No problem here. I smack my kid when she needs it. She rarely needs it. Parents who don't spank, in my experience, are a lot like the U.N. Largely useless.

What's very funny to me is they have so many statements about spanking being bad and then, almost as an aside, note that studies have shown that spanking is bad for VERY young children. (And nothing about it being bad for any other children)

Huh... so, people shouldn't spank infants? Wow, that's some striking results (pun intended).

Jocassee · « **Reply #4 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:05:47 PM »

Spanked kid speaking up here. Not everyone would say I turned out "ok"

but I did turn out.

jackdanson · « **Reply #5 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:10:30 PM »

Quote

Everyone I have ever met who doesn't spank has had a holy terror of a child whom everyone despises. YMMV.

LOLs

I was never spanked and I never had any serious behavior problems. In fact every study done on the subject shows that spanking effects behavior NEGATIVELY, not positively. My wife was spanked as a child and I know it had negative effects upon her. Furthermore my wife is a preschool teacher and claims that she has a lot more problems with kids who's parents' spank, they tend to be more aggressive with other students. Spanking isn't needed, she doesn't spank her students and can keep 10-12 of them in line at a time.

makattak · « **Reply #6 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:12:04 PM »

Quote from: jackdanson on October 22, 2009, 02:10:30 PM

LOLs

I was never spanked and I never had any serious behavior problems. In fact every study done on the subject shows that spanking effects behavior NEGATIVELY, not positively. CITATION NEEDED My wife was spanked as a child and I know it had negative effects upon her. Furthermore my wife is a preschool teacher and claims that she has a lot more problems with kids who's parents' spank, they tend to be more aggressive with other students. Spanking isn't needed, she doesn't spank her students and can keep 10-12 of them in line at a time.

Funny how the news article didn't mention ALL those studies that say all spanking is bad...

AJ Dual · « **Reply #7 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:20:09 PM »

Quote from: jackdanson on October 22, 2009, 02:10:30 PM

LOLs

I was never spanked and I never had any serious behavior problems. In fact every study done on the subject shows that spanking effects behavior NEGATIVELY, not positively. My wife was spanked as a child and I know it had negative effects upon her. Furthermore my wife is a preschool teacher and claims that she has a lot more problems with kids who's parents' spank, they tend to be more aggressive with other students. Spanking isn't needed, she doesn't spank her students and can keep 10-12 of them in line at a time.

Okay, no spanking then.

What do you do when the time-outs, the sticker chart behavior system etc. don't work? How about when you've got four kids about the same age acting that way? We see some minor success with all of those, but never to the point of 51% good behavior/listening. Plus I've got three others doing something else naughty in the meantime.

I think most of us will agree we see tons of mentioning that spanking/yelling-screaming is "bad", but no clear ideas of what to do instead...

Quote

Experts suggest figuring out ways to prevent situations that make you most prone to yell. If forgotten homework sends you into the stratosphere, make sure the children have their books and notebooks packed and waiting by the door before they go to bed. If you’re stressed and hungry after a long day at the office, make sure you grab something to eat in the kitchen before you tackle, say, a brewing disagreement over Legos.

Oh gee... That is so ever-helpful, actionable, and concrete.

A good deep pinch-hold on the upper arm/humerus bone usualy works great for getting attention and very quick compliance, and it can be done quietly and not garner much attention in public.

Oh, as to how a preeschool teacher can keep 10-12 kids in line, and why parent can't cope with only one or a handful. It's my experience only kids with severe ED/LD issues will actually misbehave that badly for a "stranger" i.e. teacher etc. in a public setting. They only ever seem to do it for the parents. In a school setting (excluding the ghetto) there is the dynamic of a social pressure to conform in play that aids your average teacher in maintaining order.

At home, that's gone, and they're hell on wheels.

Leatherneck · « **Reply #8 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:23:36 PM »

Quote

Furthermore my wife is a preschool teacher and claims that she has a lot more problems with kids who's parents' spank, they tend to be more aggressive with other students.

One alternate view: For reasons unknown, some parents are blessed with good kids who don't merit spanking or anything beyond admonishment and explaining things, while other parents have bad kids who require more discipline including spanking as punishment.

IOW, spanking may be the effect, not the cause of their behavior.

TC

jackdanson · « **Reply #9 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:27:20 PM »

Quote

Funny how the news article didn't mention ALL those studies that say all spanking is bad...

Knew that was coming, so I started looking it up... wrote a paper on it in college. The overwhelming majority of studies done on spanking say it is BAD. There are a few that say it can prevent some behavior in some children from happening, but those studies don't take into account the lasting effects of spanking. I'm certainly not saying everyone who is spanked turns out worse than those who aren't, but there are plenty of potential long term effects on children who are spanked.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/14/health/webmd/main1042550.shtml

http://www.livescience.com/culture/090924-childhood-spanking.html

http://www.naturalchild.org/research/canadian_spanking_study.html

Could post all day....

AJ Dual · « **Reply #10 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:30:28 PM »

Quote from: jackdanson on October 22, 2009, 02:27:20 PM

Could post all day....

And again, NONE of them have any constructive ideas of what to do INSTEAD when your kid just won't listen...

jackdanson · « **Reply #11 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:36:19 PM »

Quote

One alternate view: For reasons unknown, some parents are blessed with good kids who don't merit spanking or anything beyond admonishment and explaining things, while other parents have bad kids who require more discipline including spanking as punishment.

IOW, spanking may be the effect, not the cause of their behavior.

TC

True... and I know kids who are spanked who behave great, I also know kids who aren't spanked who behave bad. It's really hard to tell what causes what. I do know that spanking CAN cause damage to a child and that it hasn't been legitimately proven that spanking a child makes them out to be a better adult.

You are indirectly teaching a child that it's OK to cause physical pain to somone who behaves in a way you don't like. On top of that it can effect the entire way the brain develops, warping relationships, sexuality, etc.

makattak · « **Reply #12 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:38:20 PM »

Quote from: jackdanson on October 22, 2009, 02:27:20 PM

Knew that was coming, so I started looking it up... wrote a paper on it in college. The overwhelming majority of studies done on spanking say it is BAD. There are a few that say it can prevent some behavior in some children from happening, but those studies don't take into account the lasting effects of spanking. I'm certainly not saying everyone who is spanked turns out worse than those who aren't, but there are plenty of potential long term effects on children who are spanked.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/14/health/webmd/main1042550.shtml

http://www.livescience.com/culture/090924-childhood-spanking.html

http://www.naturalchild.org/research/canadian_spanking_study.html

Could post all day....

And I suggest you try. Every single one of those articles about the studies indicates these studies are at best, inconclusive:

Quote

In a 2004 study, Johns Hopkins University researchers examined spanking practices and outcomes among different racial and ethnic groups within the U.S. While spanking was linked to later behavior problems in white children, this was not true of black or Hispanic children who were spanked.

Quote

She added that a question still left unanswered is "what are some of the other mechanisms that could be responsible for this link between physical discipline and lower IQ?"

Quote

But spanking is much more common in society than the data indicates, because kids are mostly frequently spanked between the ages of 3 and 4, and that is too early for most adults to remember, MacMillan said.

(Note, this means her results are FLAWED.)

I'm an economist. I recognize faulty statistical technique.

AJ Dual · « **Reply #13 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:41:53 PM »

Quote from: jackdanson on October 22, 2009, 02:36:19 PM

You are indirectly teaching a child that it's OK to cause physical pain to somone who behaves in a way you don't like.

Well, sometimes it is okay. Namely when behavior is at odds with what is socially, morally, or ethically right, and other warnings have not taken effect.

Hell, the vast majority of the world even thinks it is okay to KILL someone behaving in ways we don't like when circumstances are extreme enough.

jackdanson · « **Reply #14 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:44:00 PM »

Quote

Well, sometimes it is okay. Namely when behavior is at odds with what is socially, morally, or ethically right, and other warnings have not taken effect.

Hell, the vast majority of the world even thinks it is okay to KILL someone behaving in ways we don't like when circumstances are extreme enough.

I don't think a 3 year old can comprehend it in that manner. They just associate "you didn't something I don't like" with "I hit you".

makattak · « **Reply #15 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:48:53 PM »

Quote from: jackdanson on October 22, 2009, 02:44:00 PM

I don't think a 3 year old can comprehend it in that manner. They just associate "you didn't something I don't like" with "I hit you".

Uh huh... and? So long as you also teach him he doesn't get to hit people, where's the problem?

The 3 year old is unlikely to comprehend a great number of things. A parent's responsibility is to teach him to act correctly until he is ABLE to comprehend such things.

vaskidmark · « **Reply #16 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:58:10 PM »

There is a difference between spanking and beating.

Over the years the libtard weenies decided that any touching of a child except to stroke its ego was abusive. Kids picked up on that and often held their parents captive/hostage with threats to call Child Protective Services on the parents. Some CPS folks fell for that ruse and persecuted and prosecuted parents for using corporal punishment.

BTW - does anyone besides me know the origins of the term "corporal punishment" and the origin of the perversion of that term? Extra credit - can anyone describe the alternative to corporal punishment?

As many others here have stated previously, I raised my kid with very few spankings - perhaps three, maybe four. Then there was the time I wanted to beat her, but sent her to her room and told her to lock her door until I cooled off. She graduated high school without ever having a bruise inflicted on her by me in pique, upset, anger or rage. Now, we will not discuss either "space baby" or the swing set, OK?

stay safe.

skidmark

jackdanson · « **Reply #17 on:** October 22, 2009, 03:05:11 PM »

As I stated my wife somehow manages to keep 10 one to five year olds in line without laying a finger on them. I don't think we are going to agree. It's as simple as this... Spanking can potentially cause many problems down the line and I've never been convinced that a child who is spanked is more likely to become a well adjusted adult. I've met plenty of people who were spanked and turned out horrible. I've met many who were spanked and turnEd out fine too; but I rarely meet someone who wasn't spanked who has serious behavior issues as an adult.

AJ Dual · « **Reply #18 on:** October 22, 2009, 03:16:58 PM »

Quote from: jackdanson on October 22, 2009, 03:05:11 PM

As I stated my wife somehow manages to keep 10 one to five year olds in line without laying a finger on them.

And I've already stated that the social construct of a classroom is markedly different than the home, where the child is much more comfortable to misbehave. My kids behavior in class is generaly exemplary, and at worst is generaly just passively not following with the group, not outright disruption. If I could get that at home, I'd think it was heaven.

I'll lay a weeks pay you don't have any kids, save maybey an infant, because you don't understand that dichotomy. I think most parents with toddlers and older know their childen have two sets of behavior, home, and public. And if anything it's even more infuriating because with the better public behavior, you KNOW they're capable of better...

I can't prove it's the case, but I think everyone here can see how "spanking studies" may also have a trend similar to the (man made) global warming bandwagon. First off, any non in-situ study is basically based on self-reporting, which is extremely difficult to appy any scientificaly rigorous criteria to. Much less screening out any reverse correlations such as the potential for naughtier children to get more spankings than well behaved ones.

And it's pretty ballsy to publish a study into academia that says "spanking is okay" as well.

jackdanson · « **Reply #19 on:** October 22, 2009, 03:34:22 PM »

I agree that children will behave worse at home. And no, I don't have any kids, but I don't think that will change my mind, my parents managed to not hit me or my sister, I'm sure I can do the same. Even reasonable spanking can effect development. My wife was spanked less than ten times and it has permenantly effected her. It wasn't abuse either, it was completely" reasonable" spanking.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #20 on:** October 22, 2009, 03:40:48 PM »

but I rarely meet someone who wasn't spanked who has serious behavior issues as an adult.

really? how many kids you have? have you raised?
i can think of a particularly good example of "no spanking" my sisters neighbors were both child rearing "professionals " one was a school administrator and former teacher the other a child shrink. i watched them raise their lil angel the "right way" . chasing the lil heathen around the yard trying to beg good behavior from him. some of you might hav heard of the lil angel he murdered the 8 year old neighbor girl and stuffed her corpse under the water bed. and mommy and daddy defended him to the end. daddy the shrink was extra special. it was the ll girls fault she shouldn't have come over

http://www.cnn.com/US/9907/07/florida.child.murder.02/

i work with kids in the juvi drug court program and my experience is very different from jacks.

Balog · « **Reply #21 on:** October 22, 2009, 03:46:04 PM »

People with their mind made up can always find "data" to support their positions.

French G. · « **Reply #22 on:** October 22, 2009, 03:59:48 PM »

While I think I was whipped too much as a kid, I'm glad I was, I could have turned out a lot worse. The problem was perception, my dad had no idea how scary he was to a child. I was about 7 and we had a problem with me lying. He told me to get a shovel, his plan to have me move a bunch of sand and rock from where it was to where he wanted it(1/4 mile) by bucketful. this not explained to me at the get a shovel phase, I figured he was going to have me dig my own grave. Srsly. So, I try not to be scary to my 2 year old, but I want it to be clear I'm going to win.

I don't want to spank, but I do smack the hand that reaches, and if she gets really out of control I explain it to her firmly. The get down on her level,upper arm hold, and punctuating my words with a forefinger tap on her forehead seems to work. She doesn't go away happy but she does cease and desist.

Training a puppy now too, in some respects much easier, if he tests me I just put him on his back by the throat, growl in his ear and if need be nip his ear. Dominance asserted. Future 80-90lb dog, don't need to get him thinking he is boss at 10 weeks.

roo_ster · « **Reply #23 on:** October 22, 2009, 04:17:22 PM »

Quote from: makattak on October 22, 2009, 02:48:53 PM

The 3 year old is unlikely to comprehend a great number of things. A parent's responsibility is to teach him to act correctly until he is ABLE to comprehend such things.

This^^^.

Make them act civilized until they are civilized.

Quote from: AJ Dual on October 22, 2009, 03:16:58 PM

And I've already stated that the social construct of a classroom is markedly different than the home, where the child is much more comfortable to misbehave. My kids behavior in class is generaly exemplary, and at worst is generaly just passively not following with the group, not outright disruption. If I could get that at home, I'd think it was heaven.

Our kids' teachers LOVE our kids. They behave very well at school and are, generally, good kids. But, they will do stuff at home or in public (outside of school) that they would never dream of doing at school.

Different social environments elicit different behaviors. Not a difficult concept, really.

AmbulanceDriver · « **Reply #24 on:** October 22, 2009, 04:37:27 PM »

Throw me into the spanking camp...

No. Wait. that sounds really wrong....

Umm... Let's start over, shall we?

I'm firmly of the belief that each child is different, and that there is no one size fits all rule (spanking good vs. spanking bad) that can ever adequately deal with this concept we call child rearing.

I'll use myself as an example. I was spanked as a child. Both in a loving manner, and in an abusive manner. Yes, I was old enough to know the difference. My parents were very loving in their discipline. I *knew* that they hated having to spank me. But they also knew that I was entirely too "strong-willed" (i.e. stubborn) to listen to them most of the time. And my brother? He was the poster boy for the stubborn kid. Boy, do I have stories. And yeah, he got spankings more frequently than I did. But he also knew that Mom and Dad loved him. Now my grandfather used spankings as a means of physical abuse. Little clues like, "you're gonna keep getting spanked until you quit crying!" As a (for the most part) well-adjusted adult, let me tell you what the results were: I love my parents, very dearly. They Raised Me Right. My grandfather, on the very rare occasions that I see him, I'm as likely to punch his lights out as shake his hands. I don't go out and kill innocent animals, or innocent children. I know my parents didn't abuse me by spanking me. I *DO* know my grandfather abused me by spanking me.

Now, for a counter-example, my wife. She was never spanked as a child. Yet she also turned out to be a very well adjusted adult (other than marrying me, that is, but that's also a whole different thread). Her parents learned very early on that she was one of those very sensitive kids, that a stern word was all the correction she ever needed. Even as a 3 or 4 year old, all she needed was a stern word. She never got into any trouble as a young woman, and is today a very good person. Her parents also Raised Her Right.

So, here's where I step off the soapbox. There's no one-size-fits-all rule. Spanking can be a very effective tool in child rearing, one that should *NOT* be excluded from a parent's toolbox. But it all depends on the child. Some kids will need a spanking. Others, won't. It's part of a parents job to figure out what kind of discipline an individual child needs.

News:

Author Topic: Ahh... more unintended consequences... (Read 8975 times)