I'm tired of being protected

[Winston Smith]

As a minor, I'm really tired of trying to protected.. like a friggin wet blanket. Most of these things in these video games/movies/tv shows/books/ideas that people say might morally damage me... you know, the sex, the drugs, the rock and roll... I've done quite a bit of it, and so have most of the people I know. In fact, almost all of the people I'd be willing to spend more than a half an hour with (my age or older) have done some of these behaviors that the government is trying to nanny me away from.

I've got an idea: By the time a kid is smart enough to wrest control away for himself and find these things by other methods (as we all do) he's smart enough to be able to determine whether he should do it or not. By turning doing "bad" stuff, like drugs, sex, violence, etcetera into a de facto right of passage... well, you know. Society is going Fubar.

i'm not a moral trainwreck, and I've had premartial underage sex, I've done illegal drugs, i've stolen and I've smoked and drank underage. While these actions are in no way condoneable (at least in the way I did them) they are salvageable, and forgiveable. At least in my book. Others might have different ideas of the elasticity of acceptability.

In short, what I'm trying to say is that being "protected" generally does more damage than it saves. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

As a footnote:  I've been sober a little more than a year and a quarter and off cigarettes for a 5.5 months. I'll be 17 in five days.

[Larry Ashcraft]

I think if the parents have not done their job by the time their children are 5 years old, it is too late.  Notice I said PARENTS.  Trying to "protect" children with government intervention is just that much more Big Brother-ism.  Hillary can go pound sand, and you can tell her I said so.

Winston, I salute you, you realize what is going on.  And congratulations on your victories.

I still have some hope for our future.

[jefnvk]

As a footnote:  I've been sober a little more than a year and a quarter and off cigarettes for a 5.5 months. I'll be 17 in five days.

And therein is why I don't have so much of a problem with restricting these things to kids, at least the sales to kids.  Many may think that they are mature enough to handel them, but if we went by that I'd have been driving at 10.  I'd probably be all right with some sort of parental permission for their kid to drink or smoke, though.  Minors are minors, they simply don't have the rights that adults do.

But at 18 (probably an appropriate age, my problem is where should the line be) all that should go out the window.  Including the restriction on alcohol.  And drugs.  I was suprised the other night, watching the History Channel at 3 a.m., that around the turn of the century heroin was quite very popular.  You could mail-order a heroin kit from Sears.  Like alcohol, the prohibitionists made rules against it, but the rules were never repealed.

As far as I know, pre-18 sex is legal (isn't it?).  The porn thing I never quite got, how that was dangerous to kids.

[thorn]

>>>>>>>..I've got an idea: By the time a kid is smart enough to wrest control away for himself and find these things by other methods (as we all do) he's smart enough to be able to determine whether he should do it or not. By turning doing "bad" stuff, like drugs, sex, violence, etcetera into a de facto right of passage... well, you know. Society is going Fubar.

i'm not a moral trainwreck, and I've had premartial underage sex, I've done illegal drugs, i've stolen and I've smoked and drank underage. While these actions are in no way condoneable (at least in the way I did them) they are salvageable, and forgiveable. At least in my book. Others might have different ideas of the elasticity of acceptability.<<<<<<<<,


and gets to go to prison with thw big boys too, sure no problem.

18 seems fair, but as far as the rest of it- well, parents can't supervise 24-7, so i find it understandable they want to limit what kids are exposed to.

i don't know, the thing that sticks out to me= "i've stolen"  you act like this is something all kids do= i fell like anyone who steals should be caught and fried hard like an adult.
i don't think young kids really are in touch with the consequences.
when kid is old enough to accpet consequences, and PAY FOR DAMAGES -
then-
>>>> By the time a kid is smart enough to wrest control away for himself and find these things by other methods (as we all do) he's smart enough to be able to determine whether he should do it or not.<<<


if i didnt know a LOAD of jerks who thought they were smart enough to handle themselves, and then at 17 steal a car , wreck the car (high) and a year later are complaining that "the law won't give me a Driver license, i owe all this money for wrecking somebosy else's car"
that is NOT accepting consequences.

yeah ultimately- when you can AFFORD to take FULL responsibility for yourself, the rest of us should lay off

[Standing Wolf]

I've been sober a little more than a year and a quarter and off cigarettes for a 5.5 months. I'll be 17 in five days.

You're quite a distance ahead of your peers.

The nanny state is trying to act in loco parentis, in the place of parents. It wants us all to become state dependents. All too many are entirely willing.

I think it might be worth your while to take a college level logic course: not because you're in dire need of it, but because you seem to perceive acutely and express yourself well. The study of logic would let you class up your writing and start becoming formidably persuasive. It can be dry, tedious stuff at first, especially when it comes to identifying fallacies, but the historical perspective can be fascinating, and mastery of the material can give you enormous advantages in conversations trivial and important alike.

I doubt it's too soon for you to start wondering how to shape policy.

[Larry Ashcraft]

I will say this:  Read and try to comprehend what Standing Wolf says.  He speaks the truth.

Except...  I found college level Logic courses extremely fascinating.  Of course, I thought diagramming sentences and proving geometric equations was fun too...

[P95Carry]

Winston - you have a mature head growing on those shoulders - listen to it and try best to bypass the ''nanny state'' stuff.  Self determination is IMO paramount.

You have perceptibly changed (for the better) since one or two real early posts I recall on old RT - you are going in right direction.

[HForrest]

As a footnote:  I've been sober a little more than a year and a quarter and off cigarettes for a 5.5 months. I'll be 17 in five days.

And therein is why I don't have so much of a problem with restricting these things to kids, at least the sales to kids.

But sale to kids of those things IS illegal. Somehow, though, a 15 year old managed to get his hands on it... well I'll be damned! Stupid laws don't work... so why bother? All creating such a law does is waste government resources and infringes on freedoms. Sure, teeangers are a group most people think should not have freedoms, but in the end it's my body, my choice. Government enforcement obviously doesn't stop most teenagers from getting alcohol... but it does manage to ruin lives and create criminal records for the few that get caught. I don't care if it's for a seemingly good cause... it restricts my freedom.

I'd like a nice bottle of good single malt scotch right now... but I can't have one. As little sympathy most people have here for the poor 15 year old who can't have his scotch whiskey, I still think it's wrong.

[Winston Smith]

A whole friggin BOTTLE? Jesus Henry... that's all empty sugar and carbs! Just take a shot or two of everclear ... hehe

[HForrest]

Hah... I meant I'd like to have a bottle on hand... not a bottle in a sitting!

[Standing Wolf]

I found college level Logic courses extremely fascinating.  Of course, I thought diagramming sentences and proving geometric equations was fun too...

You're a weird guy, Larry!

I've to confess I didn't pay a great deal of attention during Logic 101, but had to go back years later to figure out what I'd missed; geometry, however, was the only mathematics course I ever actually understood, and I can still diagram sentences.

Have you considered seeking the help of a mental health professional?

[Warren]

SW, does that logically follow?

[Monkeyleg]

Larry, my parents were almost "Leave it to Beaver types." Dad worked hard as a computer engineer (when computers were in their infancy) and Mom stayed at home to tend to five boys.

Leave it to us boys to become screw-ups. My older brothers stole cars, robbed liquor stores, and God knows what else.

By the time I reached age 16 or so, my Dad was burned out. Still, he kept trying to keep me from going from an Honor Roll student to a punk.

I disappointed him.

I was bound and determined to be rebellious.

What turned me around? A few things, one of which was getting a "wedgie" from a very determined cop after I'd been arrested for shoplifting. Not your cartoon-type wedgie, but the kind that puts your testicles into your throat.

And shoplifting was the least of my sins. Some of the stuff I did I would never confess to anyone, certainly not on an online forum.

Winston, you're spot on about being protected. Walk into a courtroom without a family-provided lawyer, look at the judge and jury, and think about how bad things can get. That's an education, and one that will change most punk's views forever.

[jefnvk]

But sale to kids of those things IS illegal. Somehow, though, a 15 year old managed to get his hands on it... well I'll be damned! Stupid laws don't work... so why bother?

However, I don't think that keeping minors from quite dangerous things, without their parents approving, is a stupid thing.  I'd like it so much more if we could somehow have some sort of test to determine maturity, and use that determine who was a minor and not, but until then, an age will ahve to do.  Personally, I think 17 should be the age for everything.  Driving, drinking, smoking, weapons, porn.  Heck, not porn, because I don't think it belongs in there.

There are just somethings that are physically damaging to minors, who lack the menatality to use tehm, that need to be restricted when not under a parent's supervision and approval.

[The Rabbi]

Hah... I meant I'd like to have a bottle on hand... not a bottle in a sitting!

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.


Actually I have yet to meet a 17 year old who hadn't thought he had seen it all, done it all.  And who was mature, responsible and capable.  That's why we draft 18 year old.  They are too dumb to know any better.
But as a guy in his mid-40s I can say that maturity really does come with age and while some people are mature at maybe 20 and others never get it, in general the difference between an 18 year old and a 21 year old is like night and day.

[El Tejon]

I like more protection, especially if it's in the form of a tall red head with nice legs and a cute blonde.  YMMV.

Winston, my father always told me, "one regulates his behavior or he has it regulated--your choice."

Good friends always help.  Hang out with the right crowd.  In a church youth group, Scouts, martial arts club or anything?

[Stickjockey]

Well he's here, for a start.