Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: ConstitutionCowboy on May 28, 2022, 07:25:15 PM
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Did my son/daughter/spouse bleed out and die because law enforcement delayed going in? How may lives could have been saved had an immediate entry into that school been conducted?
As for me, I wonder if this point has been addressed by local authorities, relatives, and the media ...
Makes me sick to think about it.
Woody
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A more direct question is why weren't some of the teachers armed?
I'm sure many of them have been inured in the anti-gun attitudes fostered by the colleges, universities, media, and witless/gutless politicians, but surely some would have the gumption to show armed resistance to the shooter if allowed to be armed.
Say, by the way, wasn't he carrying a firearm within 1000 ft of a school? I always thought that was illegal, but you think the MSM would have picked up on that clear violation of the law?
Lot of good that law did, no?
Terry, 230RN
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We need to push for the elimination of gun-free easy victim zones...
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Did my son/daughter/spouse bleed out and die because law enforcement delayed going in? How may lives could have been saved had an immediate entry into that school been conducted?
As for me, I wonder if this point has been addressed by local authorities, relatives, and the media ...
The point has been mentioned, but not explored fully. Obviously, it can't be answered quantitatively.
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We need to push for the elimination of gun-free easy victim zones...
Won't make any difference if we allow guns in places where the regular occupants are too young to carry and the "adults" in the room think guns are icky.
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Who exactly was in charge and making the decision to wait? Had to be someone there on the site, maybe more than one as more officers showed up. We need names.
Did they realize he was shooting kids or did they assume it was a hostage situation?
Did they have officers in the hallways making sure he didn't move from room to room?
Is there a recording of the radio and phone traffic of the police. Make that public.
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Active shooter policy has been for at least twenty years now to move in and stop or attempt to stop the active shooter with what you have vs waiting on a team effort.
They failed that which is bad enough and then when they DID have the team together they still waited. *expletive deleted*ing disgusting. Best info I heard is the Feds of all people got a master key from the principle and made entry after getting tired of the local fuckups.
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Who exactly was in charge and making the decision to wait? Had to be someone there on the site, maybe more than one as more officers showed up. We need names.
We have a name: https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-school-shooting-police-184334fed299bad71e257b585f7790ea
The Uvalde School District police chief, Pete Arredondo, decided that the group of officers should wait to confront the assailant, on the belief that the active attack was over, according to Steven McCraw, the head of the Texas Department of Public Safety.
No photo in this article, and I couldn't find the article I saw yesterday that included his photo. Chief Arredondo hasn't missed many meals for a number of years. In fact, he looks a lot like a certain police officer who was responsible for officers not entering the school at Parkland a few years ago.
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A more direct question is why weren't some of the teachers armed?
...
Terry, 230RN
Bingo!
Woody
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All you have to do is make it NOT a gun-free easy victim zone.
The possibility of armed teachers or staff is the concept.
Simply allow any of them who are not felons or otherwise prohibited (and... if they are, why are they teaching kids?) the option - the choice - of carrying concealed.
That removes the safe space for the nutjob's tantrum. They won't know if they'll meet opposition, and not get their headlines, and thus will go somewhere else.
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Why is our society including it's education system producing children who want to kill children?
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All you have to do is make it NOT a gun-free easy victim zone.
The possibility of armed teachers or staff is the concept.
Simply allow any of them who are not felons or otherwise prohibited (and... if they are, why are they teaching kids?) the option - the choice - of carrying concealed.
That removes the safe space for the nutjob's tantrum. They won't know if they'll meet opposition, and not get their headlines, and thus will go somewhere else.
Already possible in Texas: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/are-texas-teachers-armed-and-what-role-do-school-resource-officers-play-in-protecting-students/ar-AAXJ1eE
About 365 school districts in Texas allow staff to carry firearms on school premises. They represent about 36% of the 1,023 independent school districts in Texas.
In 2013, the Texas Legislature passed two methods to authorize employees to carry firearms on school property. Texas school districts are able to opt into: the Guardian Plan and the School Marshal Plan.
The School Marshal Program allows marshals designated by a district to be armed. Since 2013, Texas law has permitted school districts to appoint one or more specially trained and licensed employees as school marshals. Those school marshals can carry a handgun on the school premises after 80 hours of training. School marshals are restricted from carrying concealed firearms if they’re in regular contact with the students. In that case, the marshal can have a gun in a safe at the school. Schools can appoint one marshal per 100 students in average daily attendance, or for a private school, one marshal per 100 students enrolled.
Only a few districts have chosen the School Marshal plan and instead opted for the Guardian Plan. As of 2018, 303 school districts had adopted the Guardian Plan, according to the TASB. And there are currently 62 school districts participating in the School Marshal Program, the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement told the Star-Telegram.
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It's how they get attention.
And there's a lot of publicity involved.
The "parents" are too busy watching TV. The "teachers" are too busy making sure the proper forms are filled out.
Counselors and shrinks _want_ positive outcomes so badly that they create them on paper.
The hoplophobes think that a magical sign will help. Then they think that they need to fortify their magical sign place.
And the bureaucrats make things difficult. They don't like "keep it simple."
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We have a name: https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-school-shooting-police-184334fed299bad71e257b585f7790ea
No photo in this article, and I couldn't find the article I saw yesterday that included his photo. Chief Arredondo hasn't missed many meals for a number of years. In fact, he looks a lot like a certain police officer who was responsible for officers not entering the school at Parkland a few years ago.
https://nypost.com/2022/05/28/uvalde-school-police-chief-pete-arredondo-is-a-coward-neighbor/
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Why is our society including it's education system producing children who want to kill children?
The left’s woke war on traditional America,
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<fume>
<froth at the mouth>
Per Hawkmoon's quote:
"The School Marshal Program allows marshals designated by a district to be armed. Since 2013, Texas law has permitted school districts to appoint one or more specially trained and licensed employees as school marshals. Those school marshals can carry a handgun on the school premises after 80 hours of training. School marshals are restricted from carrying concealed firearms if they’re in regular contact with the students. In that case, the marshal can have a gun in a safe at the school. Schools can appoint one marshal per 100 students in average daily attendance, or for a private school, one marshal per 100 students enrolled."
As much as I see this as a step in the right direction, I think it's just plain stupid.
Eighty hours of training? What the hell are they training for? To recognize the sound of gunfire?
This is the sound of a gunshot : BANG!
And this is the sound of a door slamming : BANG!
And this is the sound of a bowling ball dropping onto the floor : BANG!
You don't have to worry about doors slamming or bowling balls dropping. Oh, and forget it if there are only 99 students per...
Stupid, stupid, stupid...
Sorry, but that's the way I see it, and pardon my hyperbole. But that's what you get when a stupid-assed electorate elects stupid-assed lawmakers.
Oh, oh, oh... and the gun has to be kept in a safe if the marshal has regular contact with students.
Haisoos Aitch Christos on a silver crutch!
</fume>
</froth at the mouth>
Terry, 230RN
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Here's an article with photos of Chief Arredondo:
https://nypost.com/2022/05/29/uvalde-shooter-salvador-ramos-is-not-the-only-one-to-blame-for-massacre/
The chief is now hiding in his home with round-the-clock police protection outside so he won't have to answer any embarrassing questions.
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Even if the decision was made that they didn't need to do an entry on the one class room, wouldn't it be best to have officers with rifles in the hallways to make sure the murderer could not get into another class room? If there were outside windows, maybe they could have had sharpshooters set up to shoot through the windows and then had others punch out the windows. They could have surrounded the one room and began evacuations of the rest of the school.
That would have at least made it look like they were doing something. Instead, they just did nothing at all.
Another question: Did the local officers have plans on the books for reacting to an active shooter at the school? Did they do training on it? What does that training teach?
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Even if the decision was made that they didn't need to do an entry on the one class room, wouldn't it be best to have officers with rifles in the hallways to make sure the murderer could not get into another class room? If there were outside windows, maybe they could have had sharpshooters set up to shoot through the windows and then had others punch out the windows.
They could have surrounded the one room and began evacuations of the rest of the school. That would have at least made it look like they were doing something. Instead, they just did nothing at all.
All of this true, and NONE of it is hindsight or Monday morning quarterbacking - all of this and more has been supposedly SOP since Columbine. But the worthless bureaucrats and LEOs ignored the best practices playbook.
And the Chief? Chief Arredondo seems to fit the profile of a great many police chiefs - they are chosen for reasons OTHER than their police leadership capabilities. [barf]
IANAL so I don't know if criminal negligence charges are applicable, but for sure there are some LEOs who should NEVER be allowed to carry a badge again.
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/new-timeline-of-texas-school-shooting-includes-student-911-calls-as-officers-wait-outside/ar-AAXOsLp
I saw this link. Looks like police were outside the classroom almost immediately.
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I would like to see photos of the door or another door similar to that door in the school. I would like to see what they were up against in breaching the door
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We have a name: https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-school-shooting-police-184334fed299bad71e257b585f7790ea
More background on the chief: https://heavy.com/news/pete-arredondo/
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Another question: Did the local officers have plans on the books for reacting to an active shooter at the school? Did they do training on it? What does that training teach?
They had conducted an active shooter drill at that school just two months ago ...
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More background on the chief: https://heavy.com/news/pete-arredondo/
Media can't get anything right. From the link above:
According to McCraw, “a barrage, hundreds of rounds were pumped in in four minutes” by Ramos into two classrooms right at the beginning, so it was believed there were no more people alive inside the classroom. Any gunfire after that was “sporadic.” Both classroom doors were locked on the inside, he said. Some of the 911 callers survived, he said, but he was not specific.
School classroom doors are NEVER locked on the inside. NEVER. There is a specific door hardware function called "Classroom Lock." Every major manufacturer of commercial locks offers it. The doors are NEVER locked on the inside -- "inside" being the classroom side. They can be locked on the outside, however, and it was my understanding that since Sandy Hook it has been S.O.P. for the doors to always be closed and locked during classes, in order to forestall exactly this type of situation.
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I would like to see photos of the door or another door similar to that door in the school. I would like to see what they were up against in breaching the door
I'd like someone to ensure this door is preserved as evidence and doesn't suffer the same evidentiary fate as the infamous doors of Waco. I want to see the bullet holes. the number, and the direction.
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"Martin, who has represented police officers charged with murder, assault and other crimes, said he thinks what happened in Uvalde differs from Parkland because the officers who waited to confront the assailant were following orders. Martin said he doesn’t think they can be charged based on decisions from their command."
Wir nur folgte unsere Befehlen.
Isn't there a clarification of when orders should be disobeyed nowadays... based, I think, on the German soldiers who used that as a defense for their atrocities? Is there a difference between not doing something you were ordered to do and doing something you were ordered not to do?
I'm still not clear on how the Border Patrol got involved and how they apparently took command and breached the door. Pending resolution of all the criss-crossing stories, I suspect the party who made that decision is the one who earned hero status.
Terry, 230RN
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Isn't there a clarification of when orders should be disobeyed nowadays... based, I think, on the German soldiers who used that as a defense for their atrocities? Is there a difference between not doing something you were ordered to do and doing something you were ordered not to do?
The Nuerenburg trials were for war crimes. Dunno if this would be considered the same.
I'm still not clear on how the Border Patrol got involved and how they apparently took command and breached the door. Pending resolution of all the criss-crossing stories, I suspect the party who made that decision is the one who earned hero status.
One or more border patrol officers had kids in that school. At least one "responded" because it was his kid(s) at risk, not because the Border Patrol has any authority or jurisdiction with regard to school shooters. More than likely, other off-duty BP officers showed up to support their colleague(s). I don't think they "took command" -- they just decided to ignore the command and go in on their own initiative. I haven't read anything yet to suggest that the BP ordered anyone from any other agency to go in with them.
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Local cops were cuffing and taseing "civilian" parents to keep them from going after their kids.
Even from this distance I'm majorly pissed off about the response to this. Were I a parent of a kid in that school and particularly a parent that lost a child while the cops so far appear to have mostly let it happen I'm not sure my thin veneer of civilized, domestic citizen conditioning would be intact.
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Local cops were cuffing and taseing "civilian" parents to keep them from going after their kids.
Even from this distance I'm majorly pissed off about the response to this. Were I a parent of a kid in that school and particularly a parent that lost a child while the cops so far appear to have mostly let it happen I'm not sure my thin veneer of civilized, domestic citizen conditioning would be intact.
Next time will probably see a bit of this:
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Border patrol is a total media distraction anyway. "Border patrol" did nothing. Some people who happened to be border patrol did some things.
It's no different than when there is a self defense shooting and the headline says "ex-marine" or "off duty police officer" "boxing instructor" did it instead of simply "person". Anything to avoid sending the message that good people with guns were the solution.
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Posted before seeing zahc's post, but with no changes to my understanding.
The Nuerenburg trials were for war crimes. Dunno if this would be considered the same.
Oh, let's say violation of contemporary standards of human behavior resulting in death in the war criminal case, violation of contract resulting in death in the Uvalde case.
One or more border patrol officers had kids in that school. At least one "responded" because it was his kid(s) at risk, not because the Border Patrol has any authority or jurisdiction with regard to school shooters. More than likely, other off-duty BP officers showed up to support their colleague(s). I don't think they "took command" -- they just decided to ignore the command and go in on their own initiative. I haven't read anything yet to suggest that the BP ordered anyone from any other agency to go in with them.
I call that "taking command", is what I call that. Under color of their own LEO status, if you will. (As (a) parent(s) they would not have been allowed in, so I imagine they used some kind of LEO authority to get into the school and up to the classroom door--a supposition on my part. I guess the actual official Border Patrol would prefer not to be involved in this affair.)
Notice I bolded "command" as opposed to "say, do you mind if we bust in on the scumbag?"
Terry, 230RN
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Next time will probably see a bit of this: {img}
Only I would NOT have a smile on my face OR my trigger finger indexed OFF the "bang switch"!
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Notice I bolded "command" as opposed to "say, do you mind if we bust in on the scumbag?"
Terry, 230RN
More like: GTFOOMW,AH!
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Here is a hero for you. Her name is Angeli Rose Gomez (https://twitter.com/CBSMornings/status/1532395462468288514)
Woody
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More like: GTFOOMW,AH!
Yes, yess, like that !
:rofl:. despite the tragic circumstances.
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One or more border patrol officers had kids in that school. At least one "responded" because it was his kid(s) at risk, not because the Border Patrol has any authority or jurisdiction with regard to school shooters. More than likely, other off-duty BP officers showed up to support their colleague(s). I don't think they "took command" -- they just decided to ignore the command and go in on their own initiative. I haven't read anything yet to suggest that the BP ordered anyone from any other agency to go in with them.
I call that "taking command", is what I call that. Under color of their own LEO status, if you will. (As (a) parent(s) they would not have been allowed in, so I imagine they used some kind of LEO authority to get into the school and up to the classroom door--a supposition on my part. I guess the actual official Border Patrol would prefer not to be involved in this affair.)
Under color of their own LEO status? I don't think they had ANY legal authority to be there, inside the school, at all. I think the cocal cops let them in as a professional courtesy, but storming shooters in public schools is not part of the Border Patrol's legal authority.
https://help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-1084?language=en_US
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/authority-us-customs-and-border-protection-agents-overview
I'm not upset that they did it. They did what had to be done. But they did so as armed citizens, NOT as law enforceent officers operating under any legal authority.
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I suspect that being There and being Willing played a great deal into that.
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Hawkmoon, don't misunderstand me when I say under color of their own LEO status. I meant things like hollering "Border Patrol, Border Patrol ! < don't take that liiterally<. I ask again, how else could they have got into the school and up to the classroom? Mere parents were not allowed in. Your remark about "professional courtesy" is a sample of what I meant by "under color of their LEO status.
Your link wasn't relevant. I was not talking about their actual legal authority. Just "under color" of their LEO status. That was why I made the remark about the Border Patrol itself probably not wanting anything to do with it.
They were possibly breaking the BP rules. But I can't imagine BP making an issue of it with the parent{s). Nothing succeeds like success. And besides, I gather the child of one of the entrants was killed.
"Say, Joe, too bad about your kid. But I have to give you a suspension without pay 'cause you broke the rules."
That wouldn't be a Superior, that would be an Automaton.
Terry, 230RN
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https://www.insider.com/video-mom-who-defied-police-to-save-her-sons-from-ulvade-gunman-talks-to-cbs-2022-6
I don't know if it really matters. Looks to me like they were busy confronting parents in the parking lot and setting up sniper teams outside while a mother managed to jump the fence and get in. According to the timeline, there were officers outside the class room where the shooter was, but it appears no where else at least initially. It really does seem like they were staging for a school wide hostage situation.
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What's the latest on the
Sheriff LEO honcho himself? Is he still "barricaded" in his house?
Would it be unfair if I wisecracked that maybe they were in there getting the house ready for sale?
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What's the latest on the Sheriff himself? Is he still "barricaded" in his house?
Would it be unfair if I wisecracked that maybe they were in there getting the house ready for sale?
Not "Sheriff." The officer in command at the incident was the chief of the independent school district police department (NOT the Uvalde municipal police department). Apparently in Texas many school districts have their own police departments -- not unlike many universities.
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As you said, the guy calling the shots that day was a School District Police Chief. According to the link below, 7 total people isn't that much. Now I wonder what his job history is.
https://theintercept.com/2022/05/25/texas-uvalde-shooting-school-police/
The Uvalde City School District has its own police department — staffed with a chief, five cops, and a security guard
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Seven is, amusingly, the exact same number of officers for the school police department which served the town I just moved out of ... until my department hired one of them back. My town has more than double the number of students than Uvalde and four more school buildings to patrol.
I don't have any direct knowledge about Uvalde's school police, but I can tell you that the school police departments that I do have some knowledge of are train wrecks.
For example, the hard-left anti-cop administrator who first demanded that the school cops get body cameras (good call) then in a moment of "defund the police" virtue signaling immediately slashed the technology budget that paid for the body camera subscription. Or the fact that when they formed the department the plan was to have at least as many cops as there were buildings, plus a second in the high school. They are currently short seven. Principals also get to determine their own security plan for their building.
I do not think that in general schools should have their own police departments. I know there are exceptions, but my personal impression of most school cops is that they want the schedule of a teacher but the authority of a cop. They - and especially their appointed leaders - tend to not be tip of the spear guys. Definitely not the guys you'd want in charge during an active shooter scenario.
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In the guise of ensuring a feeling of statistical safety from mass shootings on school campuses, they have essentially turned them into facilities of incarceration.
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As you said, the guy calling the shots that day was a School District Police Chief. According to the link below, 7 total people isn't that much. Now I wonder what his job history is.
https://theintercept.com/2022/05/25/texas-uvalde-shooting-school-police/
But the population of Uvalde is only 15,000. Seven officers just for the school district (totally apart from and in addition to the municipal police department) seems pretty excessive to me.