Here Are A Couple Questions For Uvalde Victim Relatives To Ask ...

[230RN]

"Martin, who has represented police officers charged with murder, assault and other crimes, said he thinks what happened in Uvalde differs from Parkland because the officers who waited to confront the assailant were following orders. Martin said he doesn’t think they can be charged based on decisions from their command."

Wir nur folgte unsere Befehlen.

Isn't there a clarification of when orders should be disobeyed nowadays... based, I think, on the German soldiers who used that as a defense for their atrocities?  Is there a difference between not doing something you were ordered to do and doing something you were ordered not to do?

I'm still not clear on how the Border Patrol got involved and how they apparently took command and breached the door.  Pending resolution of all the criss-crossing stories, I suspect the party who made that decision is the one who earned hero status.

Terry, 230RN

[Hawkmoon]

Isn't there a clarification of when orders should be disobeyed nowadays... based, I think, on the German soldiers who used that as a defense for their atrocities?  Is there a difference between not doing something you were ordered to do and doing something you were ordered not to do?

The Nuerenburg trials were for war crimes. Dunno if this would be considered the same.

I'm still not clear on how the Border Patrol got involved and how they apparently took command and breached the door.  Pending resolution of all the criss-crossing stories, I suspect the party who made that decision is the one who earned hero status.

One or more border patrol officers had kids in that school. At least one "responded" because it was his kid(s) at risk, not because the Border Patrol has any authority or jurisdiction with regard to school shooters. More than likely, other off-duty BP officers showed up to support their colleague(s). I don't think they "took command" -- they just decided to ignore the command and go in on their own initiative. I haven't read anything yet to suggest that the BP ordered anyone from any other agency to go in with them.

[RoadKingLarry]

Local cops were cuffing and taseing "civilian" parents to keep them from going after their kids.
Even from this distance I'm majorly pissed off about the response to this. Were I a parent of a kid in that school and particularly a parent that lost a child while the cops so far appear to have mostly let it happen I'm not sure my thin veneer of civilized, domestic citizen conditioning would be intact.

[AZRedhawk44]

Local cops were cuffing and taseing "civilian" parents to keep them from going after their kids.
Even from this distance I'm majorly pissed off about the response to this. Were I a parent of a kid in that school and particularly a parent that lost a child while the cops so far appear to have mostly let it happen I'm not sure my thin veneer of civilized, domestic citizen conditioning would be intact.

Next time will probably see a bit of this:

[zahc]

Border patrol is a total media distraction anyway. "Border patrol" did nothing. Some people who happened to be border patrol did some things.

 It's no different than when there is a self defense shooting and the headline says "ex-marine" or "off duty police officer" "boxing instructor" did it instead of simply "person". Anything to avoid sending the message that good people with guns were the solution.

[230RN]

 
Posted before seeing zahc's post, but with no changes to my understanding.

The Nuerenburg trials were for war crimes. Dunno if this would be considered the same.

Oh, let's say violation of contemporary standards of human behavior resulting in death in the war criminal case, violation of contract resulting in death in the Uvalde case.

One or more border patrol officers had kids in that school. At least one "responded" because it was his kid(s) at risk, not because the Border Patrol has any authority or jurisdiction with regard to school shooters. More than likely, other off-duty BP officers showed up to support their colleague(s). I don't think they "took command" -- they just decided to ignore the command and go in on their own initiative. I haven't read anything yet to suggest that the BP ordered anyone from any other agency to go in with them.

I call that "taking command", is what I call that.  Under color of their own LEO status, if you will.  (As (a)  parent(s) they would not have been allowed in, so I imagine they used some kind of LEO authority to get into the school and up to the classroom door--a supposition on my part.  I guess the actual official Border Patrol would prefer not to be involved  in this affair.)

Notice I bolded "command" as opposed to "say, do you mind if we bust in on the scumbag?"

Terry, 230RN

[HeroHog]

Next time will probably see a bit of this: {img}

Only I would NOT have a smile on my face OR my trigger finger indexed OFF the "bang switch"!

[HeroHog]

Notice I bolded "command" as opposed to "say, do you mind if we bust in on the scumbag?"

Terry, 230RN

More like: GTFOOMW,AH!

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Here is a hero for you. Her name is Angeli Rose Gomez

Woody

[230RN]

More like: GTFOOMW,AH!

Yes, yess, like that !

. despite the tragic circumstances.

[Hawkmoon]

One or more border patrol officers had kids in that school. At least one "responded" because it was his kid(s) at risk, not because the Border Patrol has any authority or jurisdiction with regard to school shooters. More than likely, other off-duty BP officers showed up to support their colleague(s). I don't think they "took command" -- they just decided to ignore the command and go in on their own initiative. I haven't read anything yet to suggest that the BP ordered anyone from any other agency to go in with them.

I call that "taking command", is what I call that.  Under color of their own LEO status, if you will.  (As (a)  parent(s) they would not have been allowed in, so I imagine they used some kind of LEO authority to get into the school and up to the classroom door--a supposition on my part.  I guess the actual official Border Patrol would prefer not to be involved  in this affair.)

Under color of their own LEO status? I don't think they had ANY legal authority to be there, inside the school, at all. I think the cocal cops let them in as a professional courtesy, but storming shooters in public schools is not part of the Border Patrol's legal authority.

https://help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-1084?language=en_US

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/authority-us-customs-and-border-protection-agents-overview

I'm not upset that they did it. They did what had to be done. But they did so as armed citizens, NOT as law enforceent officers operating under any legal authority.

[Bogie]

I suspect that being There and being Willing played a great deal into that.
 

[230RN]

Hawkmoon, don't misunderstand me when I say under color of their own LEO status.  I meant things like hollering "Border Patrol, Border Patrol ! < don't take that liiterally<.  I ask again, how else could they have got into the school and up to the classroom?  Mere parents were not allowed in.  Your remark about "professional courtesy" is a sample of what I meant by "under color of their LEO status.
 
Your link wasn't relevant.  I was not talking about their actual legal authority.  Just  "under color" of their LEO status. That was why I made the remark about the Border Patrol itself probably not wanting anything to do with it.

They were possibly breaking the BP rules. But I can't imagine BP making an issue of it with the parent{s).  Nothing succeeds like success.  And besides, I gather the child of one of the entrants was killed.

"Say, Joe, too bad about your kid.  But I have to give you a suspension without pay 'cause you broke the rules."

That wouldn't be a Superior, that would be an Automaton.

Terry, 230RN

[MechAg94]

https://www.insider.com/video-mom-who-defied-police-to-save-her-sons-from-ulvade-gunman-talks-to-cbs-2022-6
I don't know if it really matters.  Looks to me like they were busy confronting parents in the parking lot and setting up sniper teams outside while a mother managed to jump the fence and get in.  According to the timeline, there were officers outside the class room where the shooter was, but it appears no where else at least initially.  It really does seem like they were staging for a school wide hostage situation.   

[230RN]

What's the latest on the Sheriff LEO honcho himself?  Is he still "barricaded" in his house?

Would it be unfair if I wisecracked that maybe they were in there getting the house ready for sale?

[Hawkmoon]

What's the latest on the Sheriff himself?  Is he still "barricaded" in his house?

Would it be unfair if I wisecracked that maybe they were in there getting the house ready for sale?

Not "Sheriff." The officer in command at the incident was the chief of the independent school district police department (NOT the Uvalde municipal police department). Apparently in Texas many school districts have their own police departments -- not unlike many universities.

[MechAg94]

As you said, the guy calling the shots that day was a School District Police Chief.  According to the link below, 7 total people isn't that much.  Now I wonder what his job history is. 

https://theintercept.com/2022/05/25/texas-uvalde-shooting-school-police/

The Uvalde City School District has its own police department — staffed with a chief, five cops, and a security guard

[cordex]

Seven is, amusingly, the exact same number of officers for the school police department which served the town I just moved out of ... until my department hired one of them back.  My town has more than double the number of students than Uvalde and four more school buildings to patrol.

I don't have any direct knowledge about Uvalde's school police, but I can tell you that the school police departments that I do have some knowledge of are train wrecks. 

For example, the hard-left anti-cop administrator who first demanded that the school cops get body cameras (good call) then in a moment of "defund the police" virtue signaling immediately slashed the technology budget that paid for the body camera subscription.  Or the fact that when they formed the department the plan was to have at least as many cops as there were buildings, plus a second in the high school.  They are currently short seven.  Principals also get to determine their own security plan for their building.

I do not think that in general schools should have their own police departments.  I know there are exceptions, but my personal impression of most school cops is that they want the schedule of a teacher but the authority of a cop.  They - and especially their appointed leaders - tend to not be tip of the spear guys.  Definitely not the guys you'd want in charge during an active shooter scenario.

[Bogie]

In the guise of ensuring a feeling of statistical safety from mass shootings on school campuses, they have essentially turned them into facilities of incarceration.

[Hawkmoon]

As you said, the guy calling the shots that day was a School District Police Chief.  According to the link below, 7 total people isn't that much.  Now I wonder what his job history is. 

https://theintercept.com/2022/05/25/texas-uvalde-shooting-school-police/

But the population of Uvalde is only 15,000. Seven officers just for the school district (totally apart from and in addition to the municipal police department) seems pretty excessive to me.