Author Topic: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?  (Read 5546 times)

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« on: May 22, 2012, 09:59:12 AM »
The IPO has been hyped for weeks by Wall Street, and the stock has fallen 10+% per day since it was offered.
Its another case where Wall Street was a whole lot dumber than main Street- Facebook had a Market Capitalization of $100 Billion and a P/E of 75+, who in their right mind would buy this stock?

 :laugh:
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

AJ Dual

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,162
  • Shoe Ballistics Inc.
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2012, 10:26:04 AM »
The IPO has been hyped for weeks by Wall Street, and the stock has fallen 10+% per day since it was offered.
Its another case where Wall Street was a whole lot dumber than main Street- Facebook had a Market Capitalization of $100 Billion and a P/E of 75+, who in their right mind would buy this stock?

 :laugh:

Yes, I think some basic analysis probably should have clued people in that this was just a lot of hype.  Although in their defense, Facebook wasn't making it abundantly clear just how many shares there would be in circulation until the last possible minute before the IPO. So a lot of folks weren't playing with all the facts. And even the people who DID figure this out before the launch time, many of them were "forced" do buy, because in all the confusion of the FUBAR'ed trading, their cancel orders didn't go through...

I promise not to duck.

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2012, 10:40:31 AM »
What gets me is that all of the whiz kids with Ivy League MBAs in he investment banks somehow thought it was a good idea to buy this stock (I've heard reports that they paid around $35/share before the IPO). They were either idiots, trying to pull a scam, or both.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2012, 10:45:11 AM »
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/facebook-bankers-secretly-cut-facebook-revenue-estimates-middle-133648905.html

Facebook Bankers Secretly Cut Facebook’s Revenue Estimates In Middle Of IPO RoadshowAnd now comes some news about the Facebook (FB) IPO that buyers deserve to be outraged about.

Reuters' Alistair Barr is reporting that Facebook's lead underwriters, Morgan Stanley (MS), JP Morgan (JPM), and Goldman Sachs (GS) all cut their earnings forecasts for the company in the middle of the IPO roadshow.

This by itself is highly unusual (I've never seen it during 20 years in and around the tech IPO business).

But, just as important, news of the estimate cut was passed on only to a handful of big investor clients, not everyone else who was considering an investment in Facebook.

This is a huge problem, for one big reason:

•Selective dissemination. Earnings forecasts are material information, especially when they are prepared by analysts who have had privileged access to company management. As lead underwriters on the IPO, these analysts would have had much better information about the company than anyone else. So the fact that these analysts suddenly all cut their earnings forecasts at the same time, during the roadshow, and then this information was not passed on to the broader public, is a huge problem.
Any investor considering an investment in Facebook would consider an estimate cut from the underwriters' analysts "material information."

What's more, it's likely that news of these estimate cuts dampened interest in the IPO among those who heard about them. (Reuters reported exactly this--that some institutions were "freaked out" by the estimate cuts, as anyone would have been.)

In other words, during the marketing of the Facebook IPO, investors who did not hear about these underwriter estimate cuts were placed at a meaningful and unfair information disadvantage. They did not know what a lot of other investors knew, and they suffered for it.

Selective dissemination of this sort could be a direct violation of securities laws. Irrespective of its legality, it is also grossly unfair. The SEC should investigate this immediately.

We first heard rumblings about this last week, and we were so startled that we assumed the reports were wrong. Then, over the weekend, when Reuters reported the basic story again, we said that if it was true, Facebook IPO buyers deserved to be "mad as hell" about it. And now Reuters has the details, and they sound as bad as we had feared.

There are a couple of possibilities for what happened.

The first one is bad news for Morgan Stanley and the other lead underwriters on the deal.

The second is also bad news for Facebook.

According to Reuters, the underwriter analysts cut their estimates after Facebook issued an amended IPO prospectus in which the company mentioned, vaguely, that recent trends in which users were growing faster than revenue had continued into the second quarter.

To those experienced in reading financial statements, this language was unnerving, because its mere existence could have been taken to mean that Facebook's revenue in the second quarter wasn't coming in as strong as Facebook had hoped (why else would the language have suddenly been added at the 11th hour?)

To those who aren't experienced at reading filings, however, the real meaning of this language could easily have been missed. Facebook's users have been growing faster than revenue for a while, so why would it be news that this was continuing?

In response to the amendment, meanwhile, all three lead underwriter analysts suddenly cut their estimates.

Now, regardless of why the analysts cut their estimates (and this will be important), estimate cuts of any sort are material information, so if this news was given to some institutional clients, it also obviously should have been given to everyone.

That's the first problem.

The second potential question and problem is whether Facebook told the underwriters to cut their estimates--either by directly telling them to, or, more likely, by "suggesting" that the analysts might want to revisit their estimates in light of the new disclosures in the prospectus.

If there was any communication at all between Facebook and its underwriters regarding the analysts' estimates, Facebook will likely be on the hook for this, too.

Speaking as a former analyst, it seems highly unlikely to me that the vague language in the final IPO amendment would prompt all three underwriter analysts to immediately cut estimates without some sort of nod and wink from someone who knew how Facebook's second quarter was progressing. (To get this message from the language, you really have to read between the lines). But even if this is what happened, it is still unfair that news of the estimate cut wasn't disseminated quickly and clearly to everyone considering buying Facebook's IPO.

The bottom line is that, even if dissemination laws were followed to the letter (which frankly seems unlikely), the selective disclosure here was grossly unfair.

The SEC needs to look into this.

And as it does, the SEC should also revisit the practice that allows underwriter analysts to develop estimates that are used to market IPOs to institutional clients but are not shared with the public. In Europe, research analysts publish full reports on companies BEFORE they go public. This is a much better system, and the U.S. should switch to it. But at the very least, the SEC should mandate that any information given to some clients (e.g., earnings estimates and changes in earnings estimates) be given to all clients.

"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2012, 11:19:35 AM »
All the above may be both true and truly egregious.  Still, the stock price vs time curve is the same shape as most IPOs, just happened a bit quicker this time around.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2012, 04:55:49 AM »
What about face(palm)book makes worth anything?
Sure it has eleventy-bazillion users but there is no revenue from them. Any advertising is so innocuous that I am not even aware of it.
Where does the value come from.
Kind of reminds me of the dot-com bubble days.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,897
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2012, 06:41:19 AM »
What about face(palm)book makes worth anything?
Sure it has eleventy-bazillion users but there is no revenue from them. Any advertising is so innocuous that I am not even aware of it.
Where does the value come from.
Kind of reminds me of the dot-com bubble days.

Facebook has a lot of information on it's eleventy-bazillion users that it sells to interested firms.  The users ARE what it has that makes it valuable.

CNYCacher

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,438
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2012, 08:28:34 AM »
What about face(palm)book makes worth anything?
Sure it has eleventy-bazillion users but there is no revenue from them. Any advertising is so innocuous that I am not even aware of it.
Where does the value come from.
Kind of reminds me of the dot-com bubble days.

I'm just spitballing, but I think there is an average of 3 ads per page. At a modest $1 cpm (per 1000 impressions), they make a dollar for every 333 page views.  If their average user visits daily and hits 10-11 pages, hat's an easy $1 per user-month.  They have millions of active users who are well above this level and I think almost a billion user accounts (even though I'm sure many are inactive).

Facebook has a lot of information on it's eleventy-bazillion users that it sells to interested firms.  The users ARE what it has that makes it valuable.

It does?

I knew that you could target advertise to specific people, but I didn't know this.
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2012, 08:35:06 AM »
Oh yeah. facebook is big into selling data....




But, that doesn't downplay the ad revenue, games revenue, portions of in-FB purchases that they take, etc.


They make a ton of money, but is it sustainable? Who knows. Probably not
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2012, 08:43:29 AM »
I'm just spitballing, but I think there is an average of 3 ads per page. At a modest $1 cpm (per 1000 impressions), they make a dollar for every 333 page views.  If their average user visits daily and hits 10-11 pages, hat's an easy $1 per user-month.  They have millions of active users who are well above this level and I think almost a billion user accounts (even though I'm sure many are inactive).

I don't remember what I was paying on the CPM-priced ads back during my campaign, but I do remember being pretty impressed with how well ads could be targeted.  I was targeting only users over 18 in a town of 15k and seeing pretty impressive numbers for that small audience.  Click-throughs for nationwide advertisers must be well worth the money.  The level of targeting is good enough that I probably click through 1-2 times a week, and I don't normally even look at the ads anywhere else.

Waitone

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,133
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2012, 08:57:36 AM »
On Facebook and other social sites the user is not a customer.  The user is a product.

There is a lot to stink about the IPO.  A lot of blame to be assessed and passed around.  Looks to me at this point the principals and their enablers sensed the inflation of another bubble and decided to go all in.  My daughter bought at over $38 and now she can't get rid of it.  I told her to unload ASARP and write the loss off as educational expense.
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
- Charles Mackay, Scottish journalist, circa 1841

"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it." - John Lennon

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2012, 09:06:37 AM »
On Facebook and other social sites the user is not a customer.  The user is a product.

There is a lot to stink about the IPO.  A lot of blame to be assessed and passed around.  Looks to me at this point the principals and their enablers sensed the inflation of another bubble and decided to go all in.  My daughter bought at over $38 and now she can't get rid of it.  I told her to unload ASARP and write the loss off as educational expense.

She might as well keep it, unless she really needs the money. It's not a loss until you cash out.  Maybe Facebook will be bought out by someone with more dollars than sense (like MySpace).


I don't remember what I was paying on the CPM-priced ads back during my campaign, but I do remember being pretty impressed with how well ads could be targeted.  I was targeting only users over 18 in a town of 15k and seeing pretty impressive numbers for that small audience.  Click-throughs for nationwide advertisers must be well worth the money.  The level of targeting is good enough that I probably click through 1-2 times a week, and I don't normally even look at the ads anywhere else.

Lot of local bands use that kind of targeting after figuring out their main audience. Probably good for local shops, events, etc. Big ticket items, probably not so much.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Harold Tuttle

  • Professor Chromedome
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,069
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2012, 09:07:05 AM »
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2012, 09:21:41 AM »
They make money alright, a lot of the issue is that the stock is grossly over priced. With a starting P/E of around 75 (pretty much unheard of) and an opening price of $, Facebook has to either increase earnings significantly or its stock price will need to drop to $5-10.

This is one of those P.T. Barnum moments where for the most part, the suckers didn't bite.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

CNYCacher

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,438
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2012, 09:35:57 AM »
https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/422/

tl;dr: Facebook does not and will not sell user data, and even went so far as to create a new mechanism to replace old-style UIDs with new anonymous UIDs, and forcing FB Application developers to sign a document stating that they will delete any UIDs they had obtained and use the new system from now on.

Quote from: Official Facebook Developer Blog - https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/422/
An Update on Facebook UIDs
By Mike Vernal - Friday, October 29, 2010 at 6:15pm
As we outlined previously, we recently learned that some developers on Facebook Platform were inadvertently sharing User IDs (UIDs) due to an issue with the way that web browsers work. While we found no evidence that this inadvertent sharing resulted in the collection of any private user information, we have proposed a technical solution to prevent this sort of transfer in the future. In addition, we are working with browser vendors to address this issue more broadly across the web.

Today, we are clarifying our policy to ensure that developers understand the proper use of UIDs in their applications. Our policy has always stated that data received from Facebook, including UIDs, cannot be shared with data brokers and ad networks. Moving forward, our policy will state that UIDs cannot leave your application or any of the infrastructure, code, and services you need to build and run your application. You can use services, such as Akamai, Amazon Web Services and analytics services as long as those services keep UIDs confidential to your application.

We realize that developers may sometimes need a way to share a unique identifier outside of their application with permitted third parties, such as content partners, advertisers or other service providers. We are adding a mechanism that developers must use to share anonymous identifiers for this purpose. We will release this functionality (available via the Graph API and FQL) early next week. We encourage developers to move to this mechanism quickly and will require it on January 1, 2011.

Ad networks (including offer companies) that operate on Facebook Platform are already required to sign terms that govern their use of data. We are requiring these ad networks to delete any Facebook UIDs, regardless of how they were obtained, as a precondition to continuing to serve ads on Facebook Platform. Further, we will modify our policy to require that developers use the anonymous identifiers mentioned above when working with ad networks.

Zero Tolerance for Data Brokers

Facebook has never sold and will never sell user information. We also have zero tolerance for data brokers because they undermine the value that users have come to expect from Facebook. To restate our policy, developers may not pass any data from Facebook to data brokers, and we are now including anonymous identifiers in this protected category of Facebook data.

As we examined the circumstances of inadvertent UID transfers, we discovered some instances where a data broker was paying developers for UIDs. While we determined that no private user data was sold and confirmed that transfer of these UIDs did not give access to any private data, this violation of our policy is something we take seriously. As such, we are taking action against these developers by instituting a 6-month full moratorium on their access to Facebook communication channels, and we will require these developers to submit their data practices to an audit in the future to confirm that they are in compliance with our policies. This impacts fewer than a dozen, mostly small developers, none of which are in the top 10 applications on Facebook Platform.

We have also reached an agreement with Rapleaf, the data broker who came forward to work with us on this situation. Rapleaf has agreed to delete all UIDs in its possession, and they have agreed not to conduct any activities on the Facebook Platform (either directly or indirectly) going forward.

In taking these steps, we believe we are taking the appropriate measures to ensure people stay in control of their information, while providing developers the tools they need to create engaging social experiences. We look forward to broader cooperation from everyone in the web community to confront issues that impact all of us. If you have questions or concerns, please use the comments box below.
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2012, 09:45:47 AM »


Quote
Facebook has never sold and will never sell user information. We also have zero tolerance for data brokers because they undermine the value that users have come to expect from Facebook. To restate our policy, developers may not pass any data from Facebook to data brokers, and we are now including anonymous identifiers in this protected category of Facebook data.

Bingo. Selling the data is risky, because that buyer can turn around and resell it as many times as they please. FB wants to be the organization doing that. FB is really stupid for not expanding some kind of market place or PayPal ish service.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,763
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2012, 11:13:28 AM »
Does that apply only to selling specific user data or does that prohibition also apply to selling data on more general groups and demographics? 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2012, 11:33:28 AM »
Lot of local bands use that kind of targeting after figuring out their main audience. Probably good for local shops, events, etc. Big ticket items, probably not so much.

Just glanced at my page, looks like all my outdoor interests got me an REI ad, ham radio stuff got me an RFConcepts ad, and I'm not sure which got me an Adobe ad.  Those three alone are probably paying FB a fortune for their ads.  Add in all the politicians and small stores that seem to make up about 3/4 of FB ads, and that's some serious profit.

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2012, 12:03:49 PM »
Next time I go to face(palm)book I'll pay attention to the ads and see if they have "targeted" me.
I've ignored online ads so long I don't even see them anymore.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

mtnbkr

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,388
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2012, 12:27:28 PM »
I've noticed them.  They're not obnoxious and are better targeted towards me than most other ads.  I get ads for Cabelas, REI, Performance Bike, and a few others.

Chris

AmbulanceDriver

  • Junior Rocketeer
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,932
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2012, 12:33:01 PM »
Oh.  Oops.  I guess AdBlock works pretty well then....  Sorry advertisers....   >:D It always amazes me when I visit a site at work on Internet Exploder how different all the pages look.  And it takes me a minute to realize that nearly a third of what I'm seeing is ads....
Are you a cook, or a RIFLEMAN?  Find out at Appleseed!

http://www.appleseedinfo.org

"For some many people, attempting to process a logical line of thought brings up the blue screen of death." -Blakenzy

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,316
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2012, 10:10:34 PM »
I didn't have to look at the P/E or anything about Facebook to know it was an overpushed stock offering. You can just tell from the amount of hype was generated that it wasn't going to be THAT big of a deal. Kind of like how the louder the FormerDaytimeTVStar on an infomercial screams when pushing the product, the shittier it is.

Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,425
  • My prepositions are on/in
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,316
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2012, 10:38:09 PM »
Quote
Wait. APS is free.

Trust me, the time will come when you will end up in a bathtub full of ice and missing organs.

Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

Regolith

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,171
Re: Facebook- anyone else watching this IPO debacle unfold?
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2012, 10:44:45 PM »
Facebook was never a good buy, IMO. I think Facebook is currently at its peak, and that there's a very good chance that sometime in the next couple of years another social networking site will come along and eat Facebook's lunch. Eventually, it's likely to become like MySpace: a niche service for users who either don't want to migrate to the next big thing or who for some reason find Facebook to suit their needs better. Which means their stock price is only going to fall.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth