Author Topic: Judges could be fired for bench decisions  (Read 2410 times)

Desertdog

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Judges could be fired for bench decisions
« on: September 17, 2006, 12:27:42 PM »
IMO this should cover the Federal Courts also.

Judges could be fired for bench decisions
Voters may give panel of citizens power to enforce accountability
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51998
 

Voters in South Dakota decided they didn't like the liberal leanings of former U.S. Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, a Democrat, and voted him out of office in 2004. Then a year later they had their state legislators ban abortion.

Now comes the newest statement on morals and conservative values from the roughly 800,000 people who live between Nebraska and North Dakota, Minnesota and Wyoming: A South Dakota Judicial Accountability plan that would require judges to follow the Constitution.

No more "discoveries" like the U.S. Supreme Court's revelation of a "right" to sodomy, such as was featured in a Texas case not too long ago, plan supporters say.

Bill Stegmeier, the organizer for what will be Amendment E on this November's election ballot in South Dakota, said the idea comes from a national organization promoting accountability for judges, but his is a state effort that has just come together.

"Actually, we had the timing right. Look at all the news, even national news, about judges out of control," Stegmeier told WND.

The plan is fairly simple: A constantly rotating panel of South Dakota residents chosen randomly from voter registration lists would serve as a "super" grand jury. Anyone with a complaint against a judge that isn't resolved by the judiciary could come to the panel.

Panel members would have the power to review cases and circumstances, and, if they determine it's appropriate, strip a judge of his immunity for his decisions in court.

The plan already has the support of nearly 47,000 voters, because that's how many people signed Stegmeier's petitions even though state officials confirmed it and stop counting at 33,456.

Not surprisingly, lawyers are campaigning hard against the proposal. But they appear to be facing an uphill battle.

"There's been a poll taken by our opposition, and it leaked out," Stegmeier said. "Three-to-one were in favor of the amendment."

The plan doesn't replace or eliminate any present procedure, it just adds another layer of protection for those who have been harmed by the system, he said.

And he believes it will be implemented smoothly.

"We don't think there's going to be a lot of chaos. Judges will start thinking about what they do, and ask, 'Am I violating someone's rights?'" Stegmeier said.

In 2004, voters chose Sen. John Thune, who campaigned on his conservatism, to replace Daschle, even though he had served as the Senate Majority Leader, a powerful position that could have been used to benefit the state.

Then in 2005, the Legislature banned abortion, although that has not been implemented because of challenges to the law, and it also will live or die in an initiative vote in November's ballot.

It's primarily at agriculture state, "not a big-money state by any stretch," Stegmeier said. But residents appear to be willing to look at the issues of import, and go ahead with decisions.

The state presently has a judicial commission, which is made up of two judges, three lawyers and two appointees selected by state officials.

Stegmeier believes that large contributions to his opposition from those such as Citibank, an insurance lobby and law firms across the country are happening because there's a real fear in the established system that if South Dakota's plan works, other states will jump on board.

A national Judicial Accountability Initiative Law group is working to do just that. National organization founder Ron Branson seemed excited by the coming election in South Dakota.

"The wick has been lit and the explosion is forthcoming," he said in an announcement confirming the issue would be on the ballot.

"The South Dakota Secretary of State has ceased counting the number of signatures turned in, saying that they have already reached the requisite number of 33,456 qualified signatures," he wrote.

The South Dakota plan's website details the proposal, including a couple of barbs sure to raise the concern of judges: It would be a three-strikes-your-out plan, with the potential for judges to lose not only their jobs but a part of their retirement pay. It also would be funded by deducting money from judges' salaries.

It also empowers the super grand jury members to consider cases retroactively.

"Right now, there is no effective way to hold a judge accountable should he violate a person's rights in 'his' courtroom," the organization's website promotes. "Amendment E will change that. A judge SHOULD be accountable should he violate a person's rights, either on purpose or even by mistake."

Those groups who have announced opposition range from the State Bar and governor to local school boards.

"It seems that a lot of people working for or with government & just don't seem to want to be held accountable," Stegmeier's group said.

He said he expects the State Bar to spend $1 million or more to campaign against the plan.

Branson noted that there's also been formal opposition to South Dakota's plan from groups in Texas, California, Oregon, Canada, Iowa and New York.

One case cited as typical of situations that need attention, the national lobby said, surprisingly is on behalf of a former judge.

According to its web report, a former Brooklyn judge claims he's being held against his wishes in a Bronx nursing home by a court order, while a court-appointed guardian is running his financial empire involving a number of different incomes.

"I'm gonna tear their asses up when I get out," John Phillips, 82, told a reporter via tape recorder carried in to him by a friend, since he also is not allowed to get telephone calls.

garyk/nm

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Judges could be fired for bench decisions
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2006, 12:55:17 PM »
I like it!
Although I'm sure those more knowledgable than I will be along to tell us why it won't or can't work.

The Rabbi

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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2006, 01:04:38 PM »
Absolutely the dumbest idea down the pike.  Someone clearly has no idea what "checks and balances" means.
Will they also object when the Supreme Court discovers a "right to privacy"?
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Car Knocker

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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2006, 01:05:32 PM »
One thing to consider is that, with a randomly chosen panel, decisions may not always reflect what the voters thought they were voting for.
Don

Sergeant Bob

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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2006, 01:18:08 PM »
Quote
No more "discoveries" like the U.S. Supreme Court's revelation of a "right" to sodomy, such as was featured in a Texas case not too long ago, plan supporters say.
IIRC, that case was not ruled on as a right to sodomy but, rather a right to privacy, was it not?

Besides, where in the Constitution does it say one consenting adults can not engage in (and who gets to define it) sodomy?
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
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Warren

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Judges could be fired for bench decisions
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2006, 01:21:49 PM »
Can this be applied to prosecuters as well?

I would like to see juries be able to find someone 'not guilty' and be able to add on to that that the prosecuter brought an invalid case to court.  The issue would be sent to  the uber grand jury and if the prosecuter is found to have acted unethically he could be fired or if in a particularly egregious case, charged with a crime.

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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2006, 01:21:55 PM »
Justice by popular vote. We got rid of that idea a long time ago, for good reason.

Firethorn

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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2006, 01:55:51 PM »
Quote from: c_yeager
Justice by popular vote. We got rid of that idea a long time ago, for good reason.
It's not exactly justice by popular vote.  It sounds alot like a jury.  Many judges today serve only on the sufferance of public vote.  I get to vote for/against local judges all the time.  The trick is, I've never heard of most of them, as I don't have much to do with the justice system, so how the heck am I to make an informed decision unless they really, really screw up?

One problem I think that we encounter in supreme courts today is almost a form of dementia.  Once appointed, there's almost nothing we can do to get rid of them if they essentially go nuts later in life and start using their bench for politicing rather than serving justice and the constitution.  You also get judges and lawyers twisting the english language in interesting ways.  It'd be interesting to have normal humans keeping a check on them.

Because the panel is 'constantly rotating', it sounds like each person serves for a period of time, so the panel will be somewhat experienced at least.

I see it as a potential improvement over the current situation.  Of course, anything that makes a government servant concerned about his or her job if they screw up is often a good thing.  Makes them pay more attention.

Quote from: here2learn
I would like to see juries be able to find someone 'not guilty' and be able to add on to that that the prosecuter brought an invalid case to court.  The issue would be sent to  the uber grand jury and if the prosecuter is found to have acted unethically he could be fired or if in a particularly egregious case, charged with a crime.
I watched a Penn&Teller episode recently(working through their backlist, it was the death penalty one) where they pointed out how a prosecuter supressed evidence in a death penalty murder trial.  To whit:  The defendent was in jail on an unrelated offense the day the murder/time of death occurred!  As far as I'm concerned, if that's true, said prosecuter deserves to go to death row and a prosecuter's office that deserves to be universally fired.  I mean, after this came out they still tried to execute a man they knew was most likely innocent of the murder!

Then again, I have to wonder what the heck his defense attorney was doing.

griz

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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2006, 04:48:30 PM »
This is an incredibly bold and bad idea.  Despite the claims that this will cause judges to "follow the constitution",  the wording is such that anybody can complain about any decision a judge makes.  What's wrong with that you may ask?  Think about how poor the judgement is of half the people you meet.  Well, when you pick a random sample of 13 unemployed people (Each volunteer "juror" serves one year with a good salary) it only takes seven people in the state to agree, and they can overrule even the constitution of the United States.  Doubt it?  Here is the final item in the amendment:

Quote
23. Preeminence. Preeminence shall be given to this Amendment in any case of conflicts with statute, case law, common law, or constitutional provision.
Throwing out constitutions is serious business.  It should not be done through a wacky back door law that assumes that judges are guilty until proven innocent.  All quotes from the amendment:

Quote
All allegations in the complaint shall be liberally construed in favor of the complainant.
Lastly, why should a Special Grand Jury that holds judges responsible for their decisions be exempt from their own decisions?

Quote
20. Enforcement. No person exercising strict enforcement of the findings of a Special Grand Jury shall be held liable civilly, criminally, or in contempt.
Here is the actual amendment, not some fund raising campaign speech promoting it:
http://www.southdakotajudicialaccountability.org/amendment.htm
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lupinus

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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2006, 05:11:14 PM »
like so many things slippery slope.

With the right group of people it would work great, with the wrong group it could be a disaster.  Kind of like a king, good king good time, ahole king bad times.  Do you want to take that chance?  I don't.

Make some checks and balances yes, but not a random group of people.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2006, 05:54:52 PM »
I think the idea has some merit.  This particular implementation may not be such a good idea, but the need for judicial accountability is very real and very urgent.

There's a big problem in this country with the judiciary thinking it is above the law.  When the law or the Constitution doesn't say what they want to here, they re-interpret it until it does.  Thus you have all sorts of screwball court decisions coming down the pike, and not a damn thing you can do about them.  2nd ammendment decisions, the recent imminent domain ruling, campaign finance, Roe v Wade (not saying anything for or against legal abortion, but that decision is an awfully convoluted piece of lawyering).  Heck, even the Great Society laws might finally get a fair/Constitutional review.

I'm not so keen on their views on sodomy, though.  But still, this idea is a good start.  It's a step in the right direction.

Moondoggie

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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2006, 07:01:23 PM »
I'm not sure if this idea is a good one or not....the ability of a small group of enelected laymen to overturn laws or constitutional provisions is definately going too far.

I will say that something needs to be done.  I've spent way more time in courts than the avg person due to military service, reserve police officer, jury duty and a course in college (Judicial Processes) that required many hours of court observation.  My impressions are that roughly 80% of judges are on a power trip.  We need to find a way to moderate this tendency.
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MicroBalrog

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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2006, 10:35:00 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
Absolutely the dumbest idea down the pike.  Someone clearly has no idea what "checks and balances" means.
Will they also object when the Supreme Court discovers a "right to privacy"?
So, Rabbi.

In the current system, what balance exists against the Supreme Court's creative interpretation of the Constitution?
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The Rabbi

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Judges could be fired for bench decisions
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2006, 10:38:32 PM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog
Quote from: The Rabbi
Absolutely the dumbest idea down the pike.  Someone clearly has no idea what "checks and balances" means.
Will they also object when the Supreme Court discovers a "right to privacy"?
So, Rabbi.

In the current system, what balance exists against the Supreme Court's creative interpretation of the Constitution?
Congressional action and/or Constitutional amendment.  The chief executive also has the power not to enforce the decision, which Andrew Jackson did in a celebrated Indian case.
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MicroBalrog

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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2006, 10:41:56 PM »
My view is that there needs to be a way (and that Dakotan idea is not a good one) for 'The People' to directly affect every branch of government.

Having life-appointed (unelected) officials decide any kind of issues of importance, while it is illegal to fire them, is a bad idea.
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2006, 10:54:44 PM »
The idea was that judges should be free to decide issues based on their reason and the facts of the case rather than public opinion, which is easily swayed.  The basic idea is fine.  It has worked for most of our history and many important decisions would never have been made otherwise.
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MicroBalrog

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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2006, 11:25:25 PM »
Define "worked".
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« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2006, 05:32:55 AM »
When I got appointed to the bench as a magistrate (think assistant judge), there were two things that my Judge stressed to me.  the first was to always follow what the law says, and leave the legislating to the guys and gals in Columbus.  Blame them for bad laws, but enforce them anyways.  The second was to always make the right decision, no matter what the public may think.  

In cases like this, the judge ended up creating a nightmare for himself.  Immediate punishment, and the football fans work to have him tossed off the bench.  Delay punishment, and the others will have him tossed off the bench.  

Personally, I ruled on a couple of recent cases in a way that has angered a local school's athletic department.  They have complained to my Judge, and other judges, of my bias against their school, and are asking that I be removed frmo the bench.  My decisions were legally sound, and my punishments were appropriate for the offenses (I suspended the liceneses three football players for 90 days, each was driving more than 30 miles per hour over the limit. Now the boys cannot drive to football practices.  And one had to quit the team.)

The problem with the idea of a "judicial review committee is that, just as a bad judge ruins the system, a proper decision by a judge can be horribly unpopular.  How about a judge that suppresses evidence against a confessed child molestor, so the case must be dismissed.  You know, those damned technicalities?  They are usually Constitutional issues regarding 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendment rights.  What will this board do when a judge throws out the muder weapon which was obtained during what is later determined to be an illegal search.  

Years ago on the show "The Practice,"  they had an interesting episode on this very point.  A nun was kidnapped.  A rookie officer heard her yelling for help.  He forced open the door and helped her out.  She told him the kidnapper was gone.  The officer goes in and searches the home, theoretically looking for the bad guy.  He finds a closet pad locked shut.  He forces it open, and finds the dismembered remains of four nuns.  Defense attorney moves to suppress, as it was illegally obtained evidence.  Prosecutor says it was essentially a technicality, that probable cause existed to search the home for evidence related to the kidnaping, including searching for weapons, etc., and that the bodies would have been found eventually, arguing inevitable discovery, as the crime scene would have been processed.  Also tried arguing exigent circumstances, due to the kidnapping.

Imagine you are the judge. What do you do?  Public opinion is through the roof against this guy, and in favor of keeping in the evidence, the bodies of four nuns that had been tortured, murdered, and the bodies mutilated.  On the other hand, you have what appears to be a techincal violation of the Constitutional 4th Amendment righst.  Do you allow the evidence in, taking a killer off the streets, even though the Constitutional rights of the defendant have been violated, or do you uphold his rights, turn him loose, and face thw wrath of an angry public?

Therein lies the real problem.  And, hence the double-edged sword for how to coose judges.  Elected judges face public scrutiny for their decisions, at teh risk of teh judge basing decisions on popular opinion.  Appointed judges avoid the politics and public opinion pressure in their decision making, but the people lose their ability to remove a bad judge.

roo_ster

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Judges could be fired for bench decisions
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2006, 05:39:20 AM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog
Define "worked".
The most generous definition would be, "Has yet to spark a bloody revolution."  I really can't think of another way to define "work" and apply it to our current judicial system without also including the word "not" in the sentence.

Quote from: cas700850
Appointed judges avoid the politics and public opinion pressure in their decision making, but the people lose their ability to remove a bad judge.
cas, I think you have made the idealist's argument in favor of appointed judges.  The reality is somewhat different, I would venture.
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HankB

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« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2006, 06:04:20 AM »
I have some reservations about the specifics of the method described, for reasons others have already gone into. (Particularly provision #23, which gives the panel's decision "preeminence" over constitutional provisions.)

Still, there's NO question in my mind that judges OUGHT to be held accountable.

How about a "three strikes and you're out" rule for judges - that is, once a judge has been over ruled three or more times by a higher court, and the "over-rulings" stand, then that judge is out?

California's infamous Ninth Circuit (sometimes called Ninth Circus) court would have a lot of new faces.

This would work all the way up to SCOTUS . . . where we'd still have to rely on the legislature (and the threat of impeachment) to control judges.

So my solution is not perfect . . .
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richyoung

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« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2006, 06:30:35 AM »
Quote from: Sergeant Bob
Besides, where in the Constitution does it say one consenting adults can not engage in (and who gets to define it) sodomy?
It doesn't.  What is * DOES * say is that all powers not SPECIFICALLY dleigated to the FedGov is reserved to "...the States, or the people therof".  Since there is NO specific delgation of or pre-emption of "sodomy regulation" in the Constitution, that subject is rightly reserved to the states to decide, without some chimerical "right of privacy" invented to thwart it - because apparently the " interstate commerce clause" couldn't be stretched to cover it...
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roo_ster

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« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2006, 08:02:12 AM »
Now, if a couple of enterprising guys without much use for women could manage to exchange gratification while crossing state lines and exchanging legal tender whilst in flagrante delicto, I think an interstate commerce clause argument could be made for just such an occurrance.

Otherwise, it is a state issue, not a federal issue.
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p35

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« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2006, 01:05:55 PM »
I think the fact that they called this "JAIL for judges" says a lot about how mean spirited it really is. Let's get this straight: a judge has no more immunity than anyone else for what he/she does off the bench.  A couple years ago one of our State Supreme Court judges got caught driving drunk; she had to take her lumps for it like anyone else.  If a judge makes a mistake ON the bench, though, the remedy is either the next higher court (ie appeal) or, for more generalized bad conduct, the Commission on Judicial Conduct or whatever the particular state calls it.  In almost all states, there's a mechanism to discipline or remove judges for unethical behavior. Because Federal judges are appointed for life, the system there is a lot weaker.  Federal judges have to be impeached by the Senate, just like a President. It can and does happen, but it's not terribly efficient.

A few years ago the Washington agency changed its name from "Commission on Judicial Qualifications" to "Commission on Judicial Conduct" because they got tired of getting letters saying, basically, "Judge X is a dummy; he ruled against me in my divorce and you should kick him off the bench!" That's for the Court of Appeals to decide as to whether he ruled correctly. It's more an issue of getting things resolved through the right channel than of protecting judges.

As I often tell clients, on any given day 50% of the litigants in a courthouse lose. That makes it hard to be popular as a judge. This proposal is designed to be weighted against judges, who would have to spend their time (and their own money) defending against personal challenges rather than doing their jobs. Most could make more money in private practice, and would if the job got too aggravating. Do you really want a system where the judges are the lawyers too dumb to get a job anywhere else?

ilbob

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« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2006, 01:14:56 PM »
I am not overjoyed with this kind of proposal.

Every state has some means by which the conduct of judges and their decisions are scrutinized. The problem is that in most states it just does not work.

In my state judges are generally elected. if the voters don't like them, we can vote not to retain them. Very few judges are not retained. I see that as some evidence that most voters are pretty happy with the strange decisions some of our judges come up with.
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ilbob

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« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2006, 01:17:27 PM »
Quote
California's infamous Ninth Circuit (sometimes called Ninth Circus) court would have a lot of new faces.
If congress wanted to they could impeach judges who failed to abide by the constitution. They could also not allow appointment of judges who won't follow the constitution. Congress refuses to do either.
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