Building AKs, FALs, etc.

[myrockfight]

I was wondering if anyone here has built any rifles from parts kits. I bought a Romanian 'G' kit back when they were really cheap and need to order a reciever for it.

However, I would very much like to put together an FAL. I don't really know if it is cost effective anymore. Receivers run about $400 (last time I checked) and parts kits run about $300 to $400. Even then I am not sure if I would do it myself. I have never indexed a barrel, etc.

I've put together an AR, but that is entirely different. That is like putting together an erector set. Hell. It is even more simple than that, I think.

If you haven't put one together, would you consider it?

[Nick1911]

Depends on your level of metal-fu and tooling.

Do you own a drill press?  How about an arbor or shop press?

How comfortable are you with metalworking?  Know how to use a file?  Do you have a workbench with a mounted bench vise?

Doing what you're describing is child's play for an experienced, full blown professional machinist.  But, if you have no tools or experience working with metal, it's a big undertaking!

[AJ Dual]

AR's and FAL's are mostly bolt together propositions. Reading some web forums, and a few tools, vise blocks, jigs from Brownell's and you're good to go. Mostly it's a matter of getting proper timing and torque applied to the various peices. However it's still largely a workbench proposition. There may be a few blind pins, or some quasi-permanant parts that are difficult to work with, but they're mostly cosmetic.

The AK is going to be the tough one. The simplest build possible, AFAIK, would use a 100% receiver bought on FFL transfer. It will already be heat treated, with the rails and ejector welded in. You'd need a kit where the barrel is still pressed into the trunion. Then all you have to do is carefuly cut/grind/chisel the cut the original rivets and receiver stubs off the trunions and pick/drill out the remaining chunks of rivets in the trunion holes.

Then you need either a pneumatic rivet gun, the proper rivets, a bucking bar for the other side of the trunion, and a lot of skill. Or you can try to press the rivets in a controled fasion with a 12 ton hydraulic arbor press. However, I'm unsure if the rivet's don't benefit from the work hardening that comes from the pneumatic riveting.

There is also welding and button-head hex screws to replace the rivets, but those methods are looked down upon.

I've wanted a 5.45 Krinkov/AKSU in the worst way for a long time. However, logistically, I'd have to build it with a 16" barrel, and hope to register it as an NFA SBR at a later date. That would be a LOT of work on an arbor press. Trunion, gasblock, and the front sight base would all have to be pressed off of the donor 16" 5.45 barrel. The gas port would be in the wrong place too.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=1667 would be just the start.

If you went to one of the AK boards, there are some skilled people who have the proper jigs on pass-around, or for rent.

Then I'd have to decide if I was going to figure out the rivet situation, or just tap for button-head hex screws. (Degrease completely with acetone, and use the most agressive loc-tite they make.) Then fill the hex-holes with JB-Weld. Sand down to a nice contour, then paint the whole thing in faux parkerizing colored Duracoat once done.

[myrockfight]

Depends on your level of metal-fu and tooling.

Do you own a drill press?  How about an arbor or shop press?

How comfortable are you with metalworking?  Know how to use a file?  Do you have a workbench with a mounted bench vise?

Doing what you're describing is child's play for an experienced, full blown professional machinist.  But, if you have no tools or experience working with metal, it's a big undertaking!

I have a few things to work with: drill press, 12 ton hydraulic press, bench vise, punches, drill bits, etc.

My metal fu isn't what it could be. I grew up on a farm with most of the goodies, or access to them through my buddies. Down here in Florida it is a little different, but my list of access to resources is increasing as my friend list grows deeper.  

However, I was looking around for FAL receivers. Ugh. They went from $400 to $450 to $650. Not that it is surprising. It just sucks. But I need to compare that to the price of an outright purchase.

Since I already have a Romy kit and an extra barrel. I think I am going to to ahead and build two AK's up. I need to purchase an AMD kit though to use with the extra barrel. Or find another Romy kit that is barrel-less. Do you guys know of any outfits selling the latest iteration of kits out there (w/out barrel and receiver)?

All I have seen are the AMDs. They are cheap though. $169.

Thanks for the input.

[AJ Dual]

IIRC, the AMD kits are still cheap because they're made with shorter than 16" barrels, and most home builders don't want to mess with the NFA hassles. Because most builders naturally don't want to deal with all the pressing and interference fitting a barrel change would entail. Plus dealing with the FSB, gasblock, drilling a new gas-port, new barrel, etc. etc. etc.

Or just that they're fugly... 

[myrockfight]

AR's and FAL's are mostly bolt together propositions. Reading some web forums, and a few tools, vise blocks, jigs from Brownell's and you're good to go. Mostly it's a matter of getting proper timing and torque applied to the various peices. However it's still largely a workbench proposition. There may be a few blind pins, or some quasi-permanant parts that are difficult to work with, but they're mostly cosmetic.

The AK is going to be the tough one. The simplest build possible, AFAIK, would use a 100% receiver bought on FFL transfer. It will already be heat treated, with the rails and ejector welded in. You'd need a kit where the barrel is still pressed into the trunion. Then all you have to do is carefuly cut/grind/chisel the cut the original rivets and receiver stubs off the trunions and pick/drill out the remaining chunks of rivets in the trunion holes.

Then you need either a pneumatic rivet gun, the proper rivets, a bucking bar for the other side of the trunion, and a lot of skill. Or you can try to press the rivets in a controled fasion with a 12 ton hydraulic arbor press. However, I'm unsure if the rivet's don't benefit from the work hardening that comes from the pneumatic riveting.

There is also welding and button-head hex screws to replace the rivets, but those methods are looked down upon.

I've wanted a 5.45 Krinkov/AKSU in the worst way for a long time. However, logistically, I'd have to build it with a 16" barrel, and hope to register it as an NFA SBR at a later date. That would be a LOT of work on an arbor press. Trunion, gasblock, and the front sight base would all have to be pressed off of the donor 16" 5.45 barrel. The gas port would be in the wrong place too.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=1667 would be just the start.

If you went to one of the AK boards, there are some skilled people who have the proper jigs on pass-around, or for rent.

Then I'd have to decide if I was going to figure out the rivet situation, or just tap for button-head hex screws. (Degrease completely with acetone, and use the most agressive loc-tite they make.) Then fill the hex-holes with JB-Weld. Sand down to a nice contour, then paint the whole thing in faux parkerizing colored Duracoat once done.

I've read a little about it. But that was a while ago. So I need to refresh my memory. I was thinking along the same lines, as far as purchasing 100% receivers. I didn't want to get into the heat treating, etc.

I am going to see if I can find someone in the area that would be interested in doing a build. I would think, with the prices of everything going up, someone would be interested in doing one. It seems you can get an AK together for under $500 in parts.  That is still a deal in today's market.

[myrockfight]

IIRC, the AMD kits are still cheap because they're made with shorter than 16" barrels, and most home builders don't want to mess with the NFA hassles. Because most builders naturally don't want to deal with all the pressing and interference fitting a barrel change would entail. Plus dealing with the FSB, gasblock, drilling a new gas-port, new barrel, etc. etc. etc.

Or just that they're fugly... 

Yeah! I am not terrible impressed with their looks either. :)  Hell. Maybe the idea was that you could just scare someone with it instead of having to shoot them on the battlefield! I was hoping to make a few mods to fix the aesthetic problem. :)

I wonder if a barrel maker has or could make one that is the proper dimensions over 16".

[Gewehr98]

FALs can be dicey with their headspacing, and it behooves the home builder to have an assortment of locking shoulder inserts ready to go...

[AJ Dual]

FALs can be dicey with their headspacing, and it behooves the home builder to have an assortment of locking shoulder inserts ready to go...

True, but at least you don't need a hydraulic arbor press, welding rig, or rivet gun. 

Besides, without headspace guages, you can test your FAL headspacing with masking tape. (Rummages around... Where DID I put my WECSOG* manuals? Ahh. Here they are. Hiding under my copy of The Turner Diaries...)

Procedure:

Take a 7.62 NATO round, point your FAL at something unimportant, like the TV, the cat, your MIL, etc. Don't point it at anything important like your BEER, or your HARBOR FREIGHT mill, or cool set of screwdrivers you got from the Dollar Store. You know the ones, they have those rubber grips that smell like asphalt...

If it chambers, that's GO. If you can put 1-2 thicknesses of masking tape on the case-head, that's sort of like GO-FIELD and you might want to go up one size on the locking shoulders, and if it still chambers on 3 thicknesses of masking tape on the case head, that's the equivalent of NOGO and you should try to build up the locking shoulders with arc weld, or maybe JB Weld if you had to choose be tween BEER and paying the electric bill that week.

* WESCOG: Wile E. Coyote School of Gunsmithing

[myrockfight]

Can any of you guys recommend a quality AK reciever?  I keep reading conflicting advice/reports on different company's products.


I was aware of the locking lug issues. I know a lot of guys like to get a range of them to use while they are building up their FALs. I was looking at the price of recievers though and it looks to be cost prohibitive. Are DSA's selling for the price listed on their website? Or are those old prices? And if so, why are the Imbels going for $650? 

[Nick1911]

Can any of you guys recommend a quality AK reciever?  I keep reading conflicting advice/reports on different company's products.

I've always build them from 80%'ers.  No help here. 

I have a few things to work with: drill press, 12 ton hydraulic press, bench vise, punches, drill bits, etc.

My metal fu isn't what it could be. I grew up on a farm with most of the goodies, or access to them through my buddies. Down here in Florida it is a little different, but my list of access to resources is increasing as my friend list grows deeper. 

You can get by with that.  It definitely helps if you know someone who has completed a build before, or someone who is in metalworking professionally.  Well worth the case of beer you'll offer in payment for their time and expertise.   

[HankB]

Regarding FALs . . .

Guy in Arizona (calls himself "gunplumber") put out a tape & manual of how to assemble a FAL from a kit. Looked pretty straightforward.

ARs are easy.

And isn't it the pits that one of the simplest designs (the AK) seems to be one of the biggest pains-in-the-posterior to put together - correctly! - yourself?

[AJ Dual]

And isn't it the pits that one of the simplest designs (the AK) seems to be one of the biggest pains-in-the-posterior to put together - correctly! - yourself?

I was thinking that as well.

But it makes sense. The assembly of AR's and FAL's comes from a large number of machined parts. Even where an AK's (AKM's really...) parts are machined, they eschew threadding in favor of an interference fit between the barrel and trunion.

(Were the original AK's with milled receivers threadded, or was it a press/interference fit there as well?)

[White Horseradish]

Can any of you guys recommend a quality AK reciever?  I keep reading conflicting advice/reports on different company's products.

Best receivers for both AK and Fal are made in Minnesota. :D

http://www.nodakspud.com/page2.htm

http://www.dancoonan.com/

I was aware of the locking lug issues. I know a lot of guys like to get a range of them to use while they are building up their FALs. I was looking at the price of recievers though and it looks to be cost prohibitive. Are DSA's selling for the price listed on their website? Or are those old prices? And if so, why are the Imbels going for $650? 

Are you looking at uppers or lowers? FAL part that is the gun is the upper, not the lower like an AR.  Imbels are expensive for the same reason transferable machine guns and SVD rifles are expensive - limited supply. Imbels are not being imported any more. Banned, I think.

[myrockfight]

Are you looking at uppers or lowers? FAL part that is the gun is the upper, not the lower like an AR.  Imbels are expensive for the same reason transferable machine guns and SVD rifles are expensive - limited supply. Imbels are not being imported any more. Banned, I think.

Thanks for the links Horseradish. Now that you mentioned it - I remember reading that about the Imbels. Me being the stupid and cash starved person I am (medical issues), had to sell my Imbel receivered Para. I was so crushed to do it, but I was going to get really screwed if I didn't let it go. Ugh.

Now I am trying to just get back to where I have one.  What can you do?

[AJ Dual]

Thanks for the links Horseradish. Now that you mentioned it - I remember reading that about the Imbels. Me being the stupid and cash starved person I am (medical issues), had to sell my Imbel receivered Para. I was so crushed to do it, but I was going to get really screwed if I didn't let it go. Ugh.

Now I am trying to just get back to where I have one.  What can you do?

I've made the vow long ago that I'm never going to sell/give-up my firearms for any unsecured debt. They can go get a judgment (I won't contest it) and garnish my wages.

[JonnyB]

Wait, wait, wait! Hold on just a minute here, hombres.

Have I been lied to? I thought that AKs were so easy to build that uneducated goatherds in Afghanistan could knock them together in remote caves with nothing but hammers and metal shears.

Now you guys are saying that you need all kinds of machinists' tools and maybe, just maybe, you'll be able to, with all kinds of parts kits and the complete receiver, possibly, you hope, make an AK that won't kill the shooter?

WTF?

jb

[Nick1911]

Wait, wait, wait! Hold on just a minute here, hombres.

Have I been lied to? I thought that AKs were so easy to build that uneducated goatherds in Afghanistan could knock them together in remote caves with nothing but hammers and metal shears.

Now you guys are saying that you need all kinds of machinists' tools and maybe, just maybe, you'll be able to, with all kinds of parts kits and the complete receiver, possibly, you hope, make an AK that won't kill the shooter?

WTF?

jb

It's just a lot easier with the right tools.

You can build a receiver with a drill press and a few hand tools.  (BTDT)  What you lack in tools must be made up in skill, though.

Sure, you can remove rivets with a cold chisel and a hand drill.  But you'll get a much, much better result from an automatic center punch and a drill press with some decent work holding.

Point being, most people in the US lack the skills to pull it off at all, IMO  Having the right tools makes it easier.  Outside the metalworking trades, most people don't know how to set a rivet.  The don't understand tolerances.  They don't know how to fold sheet metal.  I regularly deal with people who seem astonished that metal can be cut with a saw.

Also, the AK platform ISN'T optimized for people who have minimal tooling.  Look to the STEN for that.  The AK is designed to be very quick to make in a factory setting.  It's designed so that every hole in the receiver can be punched in a single operation, and folded in a press in the next operation.  It's quick, and quick is cheap.

[MagnumDweeb]

Alright, time to share some knowledge.

Aks depend on the receiver, is it a stamped or milled receiver. Stamped receivers are going to require you to harvest the torch cut original receiver so you can make trunnions to install the barrel and stock on your new reciever be it a nodakspud or homebrew bent flat. Get yourself a screw kit with level 8 strength, not 5. Tapco unfortunately doesn't sell retail anymore but there are other guys you can get your semi-auto only FCG(Fire control group), just throw out the full-auto or mail it to me to throw out for you. A couple years back I bought three Romy Gs, three M70 underfolders, three AMDs(put in a Romanian barrel in the one I finished), and completed one of each this last year finally. Did a Yugo M64 to find out they were the exact same gun for M70 but with a twist in barrel. Your milled is a solid block of steel and the U.S. manufacturers who sell to the general public are pains in the neck that require not only modification of your milled receiver but also your kit, I did one and it took six months working on it a few hours at a time.

I've done two south african FAL kits, and they are PITA, and one L1A1 Australian which was inch kit that took me four months between cursing and yelling. I finished a CETME a month ago, got a new kit and receiver but I'm going to sit on it and probably sell the kit and receiver to finance a .30 BMG project or get an ARC welder to do a reweld on DP28(a cousin of mine just finished semi only).

If you are going to tackle an AK stamped: have a drill press for optimal work, have a vice, be prepared to put your barrel in the reciever to hammer it into the trunnion, and get yourself the screw kit for assembling it, and get a Nodakspud receiver, and American FCG. And be prepared to curse and get frustrated. Good luck.

Oh by and by, a lot of my family does builds, for everything from gatlings(a cousin did one in .45-70 blackpowder that he shoots once a year, and five hundred rounds go quick), to semi only rewelds, and homebrews(gun drills are expensive as hell, and building your own isn't easy, and can't really do any good precision for anything other than blackpowder breach loaders, and you have to broach cut the barrels because buttoning is a pain in the neck with varying grades). Okay well that's enough education for one night. If any of you are around Orlando Fl, PM, I'm an NRA instructor taking to exclusively working at a shop sometime in the coming weeks, and I'll be doing AK builds if the owner will let me hunt wholesale kits, looking to do M70s and Romys.

[myrockfight]

Alright, time to share some knowledge.

Aks depend on the receiver, is it a stamped or milled receiver. Stamped receivers are going to require you to harvest the torch cut original receiver so you can make trunnions to install the barrel and stock on your new reciever be it a nodakspud or homebrew bent flat. Get yourself a screw kit with level 8 strength, not 5. Tapco unfortunately doesn't sell retail anymore but there are other guys you can get your semi-auto only FCG(Fire control group), just throw out the full-auto or mail it to me to throw out for you. A couple years back I bought three Romy Gs, three M70 underfolders, three AMDs(put in a Romanian barrel in the one I finished), and completed one of each this last year finally. Did a Yugo M64 to find out they were the exact same gun for M70 but with a twist in barrel. Your milled is a solid block of steel and the U.S. manufacturers who sell to the general public are pains in the neck that require not only modification of your milled receiver but also your kit, I did one and it took six months working on it a few hours at a time.

I've done two south african FAL kits, and they are PITA, and one L1A1 Australian which was inch kit that took me four months between cursing and yelling. I finished a CETME a month ago, got a new kit and receiver but I'm going to sit on it and probably sell the kit and receiver to finance a .30 BMG project or get an ARC welder to do a reweld on DP28(a cousin of mine just finished semi only).

If you are going to tackle an AK stamped: have a drill press for optimal work, have a vice, be prepared to put your barrel in the reciever to hammer it into the trunnion, and get yourself the screw kit for assembling it, and get a Nodakspud receiver, and American FCG. And be prepared to curse and get frustrated. Good luck.

Oh by and by, a lot of my family does builds, for everything from gatlings(a cousin did one in .45-70 blackpowder that he shoots once a year, and five hundred rounds go quick), to semi only rewelds, and homebrews(gun drills are expensive as hell, and building your own isn't easy, and can't really do any good precision for anything other than blackpowder breach loaders, and you have to broach cut the barrels because buttoning is a pain in the neck with varying grades). Okay well that's enough education for one night. If any of you are around Orlando Fl, PM, I'm an NRA instructor taking to exclusively working at a shop sometime in the coming weeks, and I'll be doing AK builds if the owner will let me hunt wholesale kits, looking to do M70s and Romys.

Thanks for all the info! I am just down the road a stretch from you in St. Pete. Nice to meet another Floridian shooter here. Especially someone who builds  Check your PM box.