Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Regolith on January 14, 2010, 12:15:57 PM
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By LIZETTE ALVAREZ
Published: January 13, 2010
The Transportation Security Administration, under scrutiny after last month’s bombing attempt, has on its Web site a “mythbuster” that tries to reassure the public.
Michael Hicks, 8, a Cub Scout in Clifton, N.J., has the same name as a suspicious person.
Myth: The No-Fly list includes an 8-year-old boy.
Buster: No 8-year-old is on a T.S.A. watch list.
“Meet Mikey Hicks,” said Najlah Feanny Hicks, introducing her 8-year-old son, a New Jersey Cub Scout and frequent traveler who has seldom boarded a plane without a hassle because he shares the name of a suspicious person. “It’s not a myth.”
Michael Winston Hicks’s mother initially sensed trouble when he was a baby and she could not get a seat for him on their flight to Florida at an airport kiosk; airline officials explained that his name “was on the list,” she recalled.
The first time he was patted down, at Newark Liberty International Airport, Mikey was 2. He cried.
After years of long delays and waits for supervisors at every airport ticket counter, this year’s vacation to the Bahamas badly shook up the family. Mikey was frisked on the way there, then more aggressively on the way home.
“Up your arms, down your arms, up your crotch — someone is patting your 8-year-old down like he’s a criminal,” Mrs. Hicks recounted. “A terrorist can blow his underwear up and they don’t catch him. But my 8-year-old can’t walk through security without being frisked.”
It is true that Mikey is not on the federal government’s “no-fly” list, which includes about 2,500 people, less than 10 percent of them from the United States. But his name appears to be among some 13,500 on the larger “selectee” list, which sets off a high level of security screening.
At some point, someone named Michael Hicks made the Department of Homeland Security suspicious, and little Mikey is still paying the price. (His father, also named Michael Hicks, was stopped for the first time on the Bahamas trip.)
Both lists are maintained by the Terrorist Screening Center, which includes the Federal Bureau of Investigation. They are given to the Transportation Security Administration, which in turn sends them to the airlines.
A spokesman for the T.S.A., James Fotenos, said that as a rule, “there are no children on the no-fly or selectee lists,” but would not comment on Mikey’s situation specifically.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/14/nyregion/14watchlist.html
More at the link.
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This is freaking ridiculous. They patted down an eight year old boy just because his name matched? WTF?!? You'd think that the fact he was an eight year old boyscout would clue in the 'tards who run the screening that maybe, just maybe, he isn't about to blow up the freaking plane...
Just a note: there are some who want to deny people the right to purchase firearms based on the same list. This kid wouldn't be able to buy a .22LR in ten years if those people got their way. ;/
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You'd think that the fact he was an eight year old boyscout would clue in the 'tards who run the screening that maybe, just maybe, he isn't about to blow up the freaking plane...
You might think that, but then you might end up with a plane blown up by a child fighter.
Just saying...
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You might think that, but then you might end up with a plane blown up by a child fighter.
Just saying...
Doubtful. So far, all of the terrorists have been adult males. Quite frankly, I'd rather take the risk than put up with this BS. The screenings aren't even effective; there are constant stories about people getting past the screening points with various weapons (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100114/ap_on_re_us/us_airport_security_breach), the state department gave a visa to someone whose father had specifically warned the US about his radicalization and managed to nearly detonate explosives on a plane, and then there was that guy who shut down the airport for several hours because the screening point wasn't staffed. The entire damn system is a joke.
From what I understand, Israel's system is far more effective and is based around behavioral screening. Seems maybe we should look into that, instead of patting down random 8 year old boys because they have the wrong name.
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From what I understand, Israel's system is far more effective and is based around behavioral screening. Seems maybe we should look into that, instead of patting down random 8 year old boys because they have the wrong name.
You have no future as a socialist, Regolith.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/14/nyregion/14watchlist.html
More at the link.
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This is freaking ridiculous. They patted down an eight year old boy just because his name matched? WTF?!? You'd think that the fact he was an eight year old boyscout would clue in the 'tards who run the screening that maybe, just maybe, he isn't about to blow up the freaking plane...
Just a note: there are some who want to deny people the right to purchase firearms based on the same list. This kid wouldn't be able to buy a .22LR in ten years if those people got their way. ;/
What do you expect when you hire a bunch of thugs and bullies for a minimum wage and give them legal authority to do what they most certainly did during their school years? ;/
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The system is set up so that the politicians can point to it and say "See, we are doing something, and doing it without being politically incorrect." and so that the herd mentality makes people feel protected by the abuse. It is NOT set up to capture terrorists as its primary function. Until there is a cultural shift to dispense with political correctness and/or the herd mentality, there will be no real change.
Regarding the particular story, I agree with Standing Wolf that this is ultimately about socialism - a system that is willing to sacrifice the individual for the good of the collective. In this particular case, the sacrificed is an 8-y.o., but in the minds of socialists/collectivists, it is a small price to pay for the "common good".
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I'm sorry, but my son is two years old...no way I'm letting some stranger put their hands all over him to pat him down. You wanna put him through the metal detectors? Fine. You want me, his father, to show you he's got nothing on him? Fine. That's the most you're getting out of me. I'd be pressing lawsuits if they tried to take it any further.
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You have no future as a socialist, Regolith.
Neither do I apparently, and boy am I glad about that. I just read a 22 page discussion (I don't remember what it was about to begin with), but the level of idiocy, ignorance and confusion required to be a leftist is staggering. The last pages were mostly the various conservatives, libertarians and others pointing out the fail in the arguments made by the leftards since they constantly contradicted themselves. I think I saw a few posts where one sentence contradicted the other...
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Viking, the last thing you can expect from leftists is logic. That is because they feel before they reason. Once their feelings indicate the course of action, they look at arguments to justify the position to which they have already emotionally committed. Since logic is given a back seat, it is fragmentary and contradictory by construction.
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Quite frankly, I'd rather take the risk than put up with this BS.
This. Plus 1 eleventybillionandahalf.
Every attempted terror attack has been a success. They hate us because we are free. Everytime they try to destroy us, we give up a little bit more to be less free. Who's winning this war?
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety-Ben Franklin, 1775
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Viking, the last thing you can expect from leftists is logic. That is because they feel before they reason. Once their feelings indicate the course of action, they look at arguments to justify the position to which they have already emotionally committed. Since logic is given a back seat, it is fragmentary and contradictory by construction.
Which is why I'm not a leftist. I may not be the smartest guy around, but I can spot shitty logic and reasoning, and I try to get facts straight before getting emotional and touchy-feely about it, something that have completely eluded my so-called "betters", people who will probably end up running this country (into the ground) after the next election ;/. You know you're in trouble when the social democrats is the better least butt-raping option of the coalition of parties that is currently in opposition... =(
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They hate us because we are free.
Some of them, maybe. It is certainly not all of them or most of them. In fact, to believe the above is a dangerous delusion, because it is skillfully used as a ruse to obscure real issues. Some of these issues are related to the material disparity around the world, others arise from our country acting as the global policeman for a world order that some revile.
I myself have no problem with material disparity, because I believe in free trade, private property, and collaborative individualism. I have a problem with fiscally unsustainable global projection of power that arouses terrorism in foreign countries of no value or interest to me or to this country.
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“Meet Mikey Hicks,” said Najlah Feanny Hicks, introducing her 8-year-old son, a New Jersey Cub Scout and frequent traveler who has seldom boarded a plane without a hassle because he shares the name of a suspicious person. “It’s not a myth.”
Michael Winston Hicks’s mother initially sensed trouble when he was a baby and she could not get a seat for him on their flight to Florida at an airport kiosk; airline officials explained that his name “was on the list,” she recalled.
A spokesman for the T.S.A., James Fotenos, said that as a rule, “there are no children on the no-fly or selectee lists,” but would not comment on Mikey’s situation specifically.
Hrm... Two different folks are saying two different things.
On the one hand, there is no evidence that Mrs Hicks has lied or has an incentive to lie. Quite the contrary. In addition, she shares a name with a character from Aliens.
On the other hand, there are plenty of stories that TSA has lied, has incentive to lie, has legions of sub-competent personnel, and flawed policies.
Hrm. Who to believe, who to believe. I dunno, folks, it's awfully close.
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It's possible both the Hicks parents and the TSA are correct. There might be a grown man on the list by the name of Michael Hicks, thus causing problems when little 8yo Michael Hicks tries to buy a ticket.
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It's possible both the Hicks parents and the TSA are correct. There might be a grown man on the list by the name of Michael Hicks, thus causing problems when little 8yo Michael Hicks tries to buy a ticket.
This is probably the case. However, TSA is still to blame for failing to realize that eight-year-old Michael Hicks is not the Michael Hicks on the watch list.
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Indeed. I think this is a case of relying on bureaucratic protocols to make your decisions, rather than intelligent individuals.
"I'm sorry, Mrs. Hicks. I'm sure this is just a mistake, but the rules say I gotta pat down anyone whose name appears on the list. So c'mere, Mikey!"
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Some of them, maybe. It is certainly not all of them or most of them. In fact, to believe the above is a dangerous delusion, because it is skillfully used as a ruse to obscure real issues. Some of these issues are related to the material disparity around the world, others arise from our country acting as the global policeman for a world order that some revile.
I myself have no problem with material disparity, because I believe in free trade, private property, and collaborative individualism. I have a problem with fiscally unsustainable global projection of power that arouses terrorism in foreign countries of no value or interest to me or to this country.
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I have never seen anyone put into print what I have believed for 40 years. Thank you!
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Every attempted terror attack has been a success.
That's not really true. Flight 93 didn't succeed, the shoe bomber didn't succeed, and Captain Underpants didn't succeed either.
It only took 43 minutes from the time the 1st plane hit the WTC for people to wake up and realize that the best response to terrorists on an airplane is to open a can of whoop-butt and we haven't seen a successful attack on that vector since then. I'd like to point out that Flight 93 didn't succeed because people violated FAA and FCC rules and were using their cellphones in flight.
All the TSA security theater does is increase the costs of flying. Informed and engaged citizens are actually stopping terrorists.
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That's not really true. Flight 93 didn't succeed, the shoe bomber didn't succeed, and Captain Underpants didn't succeed either.
It only took 43 minutes from the time the 1st plane hit the WTC for people to wake up and realize that the best response to terrorists on an airplane is to open a can of whoop-butt and we haven't seen a successful attack on that vector since then. I'd like to point out that Flight 93 didn't succeed because people violated FAA and FCC rules and were using their cellphones in flight.
All the TSA security theater does is increase the costs of flying. Informed and engaged citizens are actually stopping terrorists.
I think jamisjockey is referring to the fact that every attempted terror attack has resulted in more and more TSA/DHS rules & regulations, resulting in less and less privacy and freedom. In that way, they have been successful.
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From what I understand, Israel's system is far more effective and is based around behavioral screening. Seems maybe we should look into that, instead of patting down random 8 year old boys because they have the wrong name.
You... seem to have a magical delusion that Israel's screening system is not invasive to random, non-suspicious people.
In short - no.
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That's not really true. Flight 93 didn't succeed, the shoe bomber didn't succeed, and Captain Underpants didn't succeed either.
No thanks to any of the regulations in place. Come to think of it, all of them were stopped by people disregarding the advice the government has given out over the years: don't fight back, just wait for the authorities to handle it.
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After years of long delays and waits for supervisors at every airport ticket counter, this year’s vacation to the Bahamas badly shook up the family. Mikey was frisked on the way there, then more aggressively on the way home.
Mr. Fotenos, the T.S.A. spokesman, promised improvements in a few months, as the agency’s Secure Flight Program takes full effect. Under the new system, airlines will collect every passenger’s birth date and gender, along with their names. The T.S.A. will cross-check all that with the watch lists.
Uh, if they went to the Bahamas since 97, they needed passports, with all that information and more. Sounds like the usual government excuse of "we promise it will get better just as soon as we waste more tax money on it."
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Maybe TSA security people - at least some of them - actually enjoy the opportunity to pat down unrelated 8-year olds.
Call it the Michael Jackson syndrome.
:O
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There are probably 3,000 "Mike Hicks" in the country. so how, exactly does the TSA determine if M.Hicks, Mike Hicks, Michael Hicks x 1,000 is THE Mike Hicks? Does every M Hicks get the treatment? Or is it just little Mikey?
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There are probably 3,000 "Mike Hicks" in the country. so how, exactly does the TSA determine if M.Hicks, Mike Hicks, Michael Hicks x 1,000 is THE Mike Hicks? Does every M Hicks get the treatment? Or is it just little Mikey?
In the comments for the article, one person said their name was also Michael Hicks and they got similar treatment, so my guess is that they all do.
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Wow. I didn't think the no-fly list would be quite this stupid. It's just a list of names? They don't have useful stuff like pictures, physical descriptions, age, race, sex, etc?
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Wow. I didn't think the no-fly list would be quite this stupid. It's just a list of names? They don't have useful stuff like pictures, physical descriptions, age, race, sex, etc?
You're just asking for trannie suicide bombers there, mate.
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It's just a list of names?
Yes.
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I think jamisjockey is referring to the fact that every attempted terror attack has resulted in more and more TSA/DHS rules & regulations, resulting in less and less privacy and freedom. In that way, they have been successful.
My point exactly. Every attack has resulted in a creeping incrementalisim that invades every aspect of our lives.
Ya'll just wait and see what happens when a bunch of homegrowns legally aquire some firearms and shoot up a mall or school.
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Yes- and just wait till some burka clad beauty has breast agumentation surgery with semtex instead of silicone. TSA is gonna LOVE that. "Please step over here Mz., and let me feel your boobs....."
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You'll never get me to say that TSA is "just doing it's job" or any other crap like that. We watched as 2 surly Mediterranean types that were annoying just about everybody in the area were practically guided through with hugs and kisses, while they damn near strip-searched my wife in her wheelchair. I let them know in no uncertain terms what idiots they were. All their attitudes changed somewhat after that and we were on our way. Those people are so afraid of being accused of "profiling" they are completely reversing their train of thought.
Nasty Mediterranean men: No problems-let them be on their way
White infirm scarred women in wheelchairs: Whoa! Call for backup, we've got a problem ;/
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You... seem to have a magical delusion that Israel's screening system is not invasive to random, non-suspicious people.
In short - no.
any screening system is going to be invasive. the thing is the israel one seems to actually work. ours is a joke. all it does is create a visable presences that sorta soothes the ignorent, and even thats not working anymore since they've had too many screw ups.
my thoughts are, if your gonna be invasive, you better have real results. i would prefer no invasive, but thats not gonna happen.
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More TSA fun and games. Literally. (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20100121_Daniel_Rubin__It_was_no_joke_at_security_gate.html)
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More TSA fun and games. Literally. (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20100121_Daniel_Rubin__It_was_no_joke_at_security_gate.html)
At least the guy was fired.
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any screening system is going to be invasive. the thing is the israel one seems to actually work.
How does ours differ from yours?
How is ours more effective than yours?
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At least the guy was fired.
Where did you read that he was fired? I read that he was disciplined "appropriately," but -- as usual -- they couldn't/wouldn't say what that meant.
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Where did you read that he was fired? I read that he was disciplined "appropriately," but -- as usual -- they couldn't/wouldn't say what that meant.
At the bottom of the article, there is an update where they claim that he no longer works for them. The author points out that it could be firing or quitting, they don't know.
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some of you folks would not like the guys from el al either. they don't like folks who don't talk to them and could give a hootif it hurts your feelings. i know a moron that tryed to flex with them and his family left his butt at the airport and flew on without him when he got stupid and they denied him boarding
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How does ours differ from yours?
How is ours more effective than yours?
when was the last time someone with fancy underpants even got close to a plane over there?
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when was the last time someone with fancy underpants even got close to a plane over there?
You realize an Israeli company screened underpants guy in NL, right? If our method had worked, it'd have worked there.
But besides, Israel screens everyone. And we don't just have searches in airports - we pat people down on entrance to every train and bus station, too. And shopping malls, hotels, colleges, courthouses, museums, and so on, and so force. Profiling? HAHAHA. Everybody opens their bags, everybody gets patted down or screened for metal. Everybody carries a state-issued ID card.