Strength vs Endurance in the Armed Forces

[roo_ster]

Are you Strong Enough? An interview with Mark Rippetoe

http://rhinoden.rangerup.com/are-you-strong-enough-an-interview-with-mark-rippetoe/

Don't know this Rippitoe fellow, but I might be interested in his news letter.

To sum up, Rippitoe and many folk in the services think a greater emphasis on physical strength is more applicable than the current all-endurance, all-the-time regimen.

Mark Rippetoe PT Test

    Double bodyweight deadlift.
    Standing Overhead Press with 75% of bodyweight on the bar.
    Chin-ups-12 minimum
    400 meters in 75 seconds or less.

I think a Soldier should be able to do 12 chin-ups and run 400 meters in 75 seconds or less. The additional benefit of having the press, chin-up, and 400 meter run tests is that they do away with the need to do body composition testing, which takes up a lot of time and can be a problem for muscular Soldiers. If Soldiers are too fat they are not going to be able to meet those standards. But if you have a person that would be too fat under the present metrics, but who can still do 12 chin-ups and run a 75-second 400, let him stay! People like this are not hurting anything, because they are physically capable of doing the job. I think you would still need assessments that are mission-specific, but these would be the most basic testing standards, and I think they cover all your bases much better than the current assessments.

I would include a longer-distance run or (preferably) a ruck march requirement.

Comment at the article:

Doing those four components doesn’t mean you can ruck 20 miles with 70+ pounds of gear.

Then again, being a two mile ten minute man doesn’t mean you can ruck 20 miles with 70+ pounds of gear.

You have to find the balance in all of it.

[brimic]

A lot of the crossfit/RK trainers go more for efficiency of time used than anything else. Running for a 1/2 hour is seen as a waste of time when you can get the same cardio benefits while lifting weights and gaining in overall strength.
ex: You can interval train just by deadlifting a light weight (135lb olympic bar) or swinging/snatching a 40-50 lb kettlebell 20 seconds on/10 seconds off for 5 minute blocks of time. Not only will it make you a lot stronger over all, but it will get your heart moving faster than you could do just by running.

[Scout26]

The Germans always thought that our PT test was a joke.  Theirs was more combat oriented as opposed to general "fitness".


Meanwhile, Grandpa was doing Cross-fit before it was cool.


http://www.artofmanliness.com/2011/09/12/are-you-as-fit-as-a-world-war-ii-gi/

[Jamisjockey]

I think an even better test would be a combination ruck march immediately followed by some sort of combat fitness test.  Even for my beloved Corps.  The 3 mile run seems like an outdated method of testing endurance. 



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[Balog]

Are you Strong Enough? An interview with Mark Rippetoe

http://rhinoden.rangerup.com/are-you-strong-enough-an-interview-with-mark-rippetoe/

Don't know this Rippitoe fellow, but I might be interested in his news letter.

To sum up, Rippitoe and many folk in the services think a greater emphasis on physical strength is more applicable than the current all-endurance, all-the-time regimen.


I would include a longer-distance run or (preferably) a ruck march requirement.

Comment at the article:

That test would eliminate probably %90+ of all infantry. Double body weight deadlift? Lol.

[brimic]

Double body weight deadlift? Lol.

I've seen women that can do it, and they aren't bodybuilders.

[Balog]

I've seen women that can do it, and they aren't bodybuilders.

Ah, googled it and I see that I was thinking of the wrong exercise. In that case I have no idea how many of the guys in my unit could have done that.

[Fitz]

Rippietoes program lost me 8 percent body fat, and got rid of my back pain while improving my general health

Strength will have endurance as a byproduct if you're doin it right

[vaskidmark]

I think an even better test would be a combination ruck march immediately followed by some sort of combat fitness test.  Even for my beloved Corps.  The 3 mile run seems like an outdated method of testing endurance. 

This. ^

Soldiers (generic term) need to be able to do soldier-things after getting from the start line to where soldier-things are to be done.  Figure out what they will need to get to where the job is and then make the standard (for non-SF types at least) 2X that.

Chin-ups are good for PT but has anybody ever done a standard chin-up (jump up, grab bar and hang, pull up, drop down & hang) in a combat setting?  Jumping up and grabbing for a window ledge and hauling yourself and your gear over it is more likely.  Do PT to warm up, then head to the obstacle course for training.

And having been one, the REMF desk jockeys need to do that, too.

stay safe.

[RoadKingLarry]

Navy PT test was a real joke. I always managed to come in mid scale but because I usually had a little extra padding I was borderline fat boy team. Funniest was once during an inport fire drill myself and the commands top fitness guru both had to to don air fed fire suits.  Top fitness dude fell out after less than 15 minutes and had to be revived and taken off the boat for heat stress treatment and ended up overnight in the hospital with an IV.  I got done after almost half an hour and drank a big glass of cool water and went back to work.

[roo_ster]

Ah, googled it and I see that I was thinking of the wrong exercise. In that case I have no idea how many of the guys in my unit could have done that.

Well, if they trained at it once per week as part of a strength program at the same intensity they trained at endurance, I'd bet that 100% could do it. 

[Strings]

You also need the graders to follow guidelines

Have a friend who just failed the Army PT Test. Reason? His pushups didn't bounce his chest off the floor

Hell... when I took the SEAL test, lo those years ago, I was bouncing my chest off the grader's balled fist: never had to go down to the ground...

[wmenorr67]

You also need the graders to follow guidelines

Have a friend who just failed the Army PT Test. Reason? His pushups didn't bounce his chest off the floor

Hell... when I took the SEAL test, lo those years ago, I was bouncing my chest off the grader's balled fist: never had to go down to the ground...

Funny thing is that if your chest touches the ground by regulation you are to stop the test and you would fail also.  I have gotten more people pissed at that observation than I can count over the years.

[French G.]

I'm not a PT god, I despise running in my advanced years, so I don't. But the navy can go piss up a hawser as far as their test. If someone fails by 1 second on the run it can wreck their career for years, same as 1% over on body fat. Yet we will use the most inaccurate measurements possible for those items. I have run the 1.5 mile run on 1.25 mile and 1.8 mile courses. I failed PT twice back in 01-02, once on my own damn fault, the second after 6 months of working hard, but it was mid-April on the aforementioned 1.8 mile course, 2 pm and 93 degrees, I wasn't sweating, just turning red and there was no doc. Regulations for that heat( 1 degree shy of black flag) are PT for those acclimated 12 weeks prior. 12 weeks prior I was working on a helo head in sleet and rain.  So basically every burden of regulation lands on the member, how we run the program? Who knows.

LOL for a selection board, I had an eval first line that was verbatim "Would be ranked much higher if not a two time PFA failure." LOL. Basically in 2001 I was on track to be the 8 year chief. I at that eval until at least 2007, got out in 2008 when I probably had a good shot. Don't mind, it was my doing.

The BMI part eats me. When I failed that first PT I was 230-ish with no muscle tone, I lived on restaurant food, did no exercise and ate constantly. But hey, I had a 19" neck! 18% BF.  Nowadays I am 225, a lot more upper body due to my job, not fat in the midsection and eat a lot more sparingly. But my neck is no longer fat and measures 1-3" less depending on who is taping. Fattest part of my gut tapes 38-40. I wear 38 pants because no one makes 37s anymore. They fall off. But since I don't inflate my neck or suck in my gut I tape out to max acceptable BF of 22% Yeah, no. Chest is 50", waist 38" thinking that if I am 22 what is the guy with his gut hanging out of his t-shirt? Oh wait, 20" neck, you're good fatboy.

[41magsnub]

I agree with all of this.  As a combat engineer we needed strength a lot more than speed.  The marathon runners who maxed the PT test each time fell apart once you put a picket pounder in their hands, or anything else involving moving something besides their own body.  No upper body strength.

[Fitz]

You also need the graders to follow guidelines

Have a friend who just failed the Army PT Test. Reason? His pushups didn't bounce his chest off the floor

Hell... when I took the SEAL test, lo those years ago, I was bouncing my chest off the grader's balled fist: never had to go down to the ground...

Or the graders that will fail a long armed guy like myself because they don't "like" wide arm pushups

The standard is "Arms where they're comfortable for me" and "until the upper arm is parallel to the ground."


It's IN THE GODDAMN REG


and yet, we still have aholes popping their hand under the tested Soldier, insisting on close hand pushups, or ranting about "breaking the plane."

[MechAg94]

How long would one of those body builders like on the article photo last?

[brimic]

How long would one of those body builders like on the article photo last?

I have a friend from HS who is a Green Beret- I ran into him for the first time in 10 years last year at a wedding down in the carribean. He looks like a freaking pro wrestler, so it must be working for him.

[roo_ster]

How long would one of those body builders like on the article photo last?

If he's a body builder, he is in the off-season.  Looks more like a power lifter or other sort of athlete doing strength training.  Body-builders in-season generally do crazy amounts of cardio to get ripped.  If they get bodyfat too low (lower than / half the bodyfat percentage of many Olympic/Pro class athletes), they can have problems if they were to be required to do really heavy work over a longer period of time.  There is a toll to bodyfat being that low and body builders usually only keep it that low for a limited period of time.  They are in a state of malnourishment, essentially. 

When it comes to high-effort tasks, body builders and power lifters can maintain some crazy levels of effort.  A lot of those "world's strongest man" competitions are not just absolute strength/force tasks, but consist in applying that force over distance or time.  In physics work is energy expended over distance and power is work done over time. 

[roo_ster]

I have a friend from HS who is a Green Beret- I ran into him for the first time in 10 years last year at a wedding down in the carribean. He looks like a freaking pro wrestler, so it must be working for him.

I don't know the guy and he may be genetically gifted, but the prevalence of PEDs in USASOC was pretty high.  As it is in many LEO orgs. 

PEDs will allow for maxing PT tests and still being built like a pro wrestler by reducing recovery time.  Keeping up with SF/Ranger/Delta PT puts a pretty hard cap on the size you can develop naturally. 

[brimic]

I don't know the guy and he may be genetically gifted, but the prevalence of PEDs in USASOC was pretty high.  As it is in many LEO orgs. 

PEDs will allow for maxing PT tests and still being built like a pro wrestler by reducing recovery time.  Keeping up with SF/Ranger/Delta PT puts a pretty hard cap on the size you can develop naturally. 

Could be- he played football in HS, and he was never that huge or ripped then.
Then again, its the difference between a hobby/game and a profession.

[KD5NRH]

Chest is 50", waist 38" thinking that if I am 22 what is the guy with his gut hanging out of his t-shirt?

Industry standard, apparently.  With an 17.5" collar, 43" chest and 34" waist, I'm "slim fit" by dress shirt standards.  Regular fit looks like a damaged wingsuit on me, in spite of a fair amount of gut.  (Much more and I would have to avoid some belt buckles, but I'm working on getting rid of it.)  Suit jackets in 42R or 44R, single or double breasted, on the other hand, are usually pretty close all the way, so I guess the fatter guys just can't button them at all.

[erictank]

I'm not a PT god, I despise running in my advanced years, so I don't. But the navy can go piss up a hawser as far as their test. If someone fails by 1 second on the run it can wreck their career for years, same as 1% over on body fat. Yet we will use the most inaccurate measurements possible for those items. I have run the 1.5 mile run on 1.25 mile and 1.8 mile courses. I failed PT twice back in 01-02, once on my own damn fault, the second after 6 months of working hard, but it was mid-April on the aforementioned 1.8 mile course, 2 pm and 93 degrees, I wasn't sweating, just turning red and there was no doc. Regulations for that heat( 1 degree shy of black flag) are PT for those acclimated 12 weeks prior. 12 weeks prior I was working on a helo head in sleet and rain.  So basically every burden of regulation lands on the member, how we run the program? Who knows.

LOL for a selection board, I had an eval first line that was verbatim "Would be ranked much higher if not a two time PFA failure." LOL. Basically in 2001 I was on track to be the 8 year chief. I at that eval until at least 2007, got out in 2008 when I probably had a good shot. Don't mind, it was my doing.

The BMI part eats me. When I failed that first PT I was 230-ish with no muscle tone, I lived on restaurant food, did no exercise and ate constantly. But hey, I had a 19" neck! 18% BF.  Nowadays I am 225, a lot more upper body due to my job, not fat in the midsection and eat a lot more sparingly. But my neck is no longer fat and measures 1-3" less depending on who is taping. Fattest part of my gut tapes 38-40. I wear 38 pants because no one makes 37s anymore. They fall off. But since I don't inflate my neck or suck in my gut I tape out to max acceptable BF of 22% Yeah, no. Chest is 50", waist 38" thinking that if I am 22 what is the guy with his gut hanging out of his t-shirt? Oh wait, 20" neck, you're good fatboy.

Right there with you, French. I have been big all my life (and have spent a good bit of that time as outright fat). I'm currently fat - been out for a long time, of course - but am currently at actual measurements of a 52" chest and a 46" waist (I wear size 42W pants, just one size up from my size as of my separation from the Navy in 1997). But even in boot camp, when I was approaching or was in the very best shape of my life, I was bouncing up against the BMI limits because of how they do rope-and-choke. I graduated boot camp 20 pounds lighter than I went in, 5" off the waist, visible ribs (though not abs - I didn't work THAT hard!), and my entire family walked right past me in the airport because they did not recognize me. Navy called that 19% body fat IIRC, because of my skinny neck. Fought that the entire way through my time in the Navy, and it did contribute to my decision not to stay in, as I recognized I'd be at risk of a fatboy discharge the entire time and did not want that hanging over my head.

I was HIGHLY annoyed by a senior chief in my division who would take me to task over my poor BMI scores - who passed his own because he had a huge neck to go with the gut bigger than mine.

[MillCreek]

^^^These BF comments intrigued me, so I found the US Army body fat calculator online.  According to my age and measurements that I plugged in, I have 18% body fat.  I am surprised by this for a middle-aged guy that could still stand to lose a few pounds. 

[KD5NRH]

^^^These BF comments intrigued me, so I found the US Army body fat calculator online.  According to my age and measurements that I plugged in, I have 18% body fat.  I am surprised by this for a middle-aged guy that could still stand to lose a few pounds. 

By most of the BMI calculators, I fluctuate right on the line between "normal" and "overweight."  I can see my toes, but not my belt buckle.